Shagrath

A clean little secret is this: Work long and hard enough for 'powers' and a funny thing may happen- You acquire wisdom instead and put attaining super wealth or super powers in the same silly wasteful category.

I cannot agree more.

The thing is am I not interested in powers such as they are but in the underlying principle. I want to understand how they manifest, what person must do to obtain them, how can someone control energy on that extent, etc.

Thanks Dorian for saying it clearly what I didn't know how to say. I think this is good thread with good amount of very great information, but it all went sidetrack.

Lets focus on cultivation of energies and please if someone has any more information or experience please share your insights.

I also heard that Flying Phoenix Qigong system is also very strong. And that the teacher of Terry Dunn Doo Wai is also very very strong energetically.

Anyone?

Crouching tiger hidden dragon

The less we know about Mo Pai, the stronger it looks

That is so true :|

:excl:

 

 

Haha, great stuff, eh? I guess you will be able to do that if you reach the TE-level, what means that you raised the frequenzy of your energy to match the frequenzy of TAO and therefore converted your whole energy to TE!

 

Has or had any Mo Pai Master in history ever possessed such incredible reality-shifting uber-abilities?!?

I guess not, and that should settle the question which style is more powerful (Temple Style Taichi or Mo Pai) once and for all!!!

What do you mean by TE?

Did you learn only Clymans nei kung or you also learned temple style tai chi? What material would you recommend for tai chi? What is must have material (books/dvds) from Master Liao?

PS: are those Clymans DVDs easy to learn from and have clear proper technique explanation?

But that would be so boring. Work hard, make money, pay Gary Clyman (who isn't even hiding anywhere), train hard,.....

Isn't Mopai dreaming more fun?

 

Thank you for all the posts by the way.

Sarcasm at it's best

When you pursue something that it's dreamy you have your excuse for not doing anything because you are waiting for the perfect moment who never comes

Nice!

So we covered Jing and Fa Jing

What about Fa Shen? Anyone?

In practical sense from my experience in energy work there is a concept of prenatal energy. Some authors refer to that energy also pre-energy (like in prehistoric), super energy (super in latin means above) or some call it also spiral energy. It is called prenatal because it is beyond concepts of yin and yang, it is energy from which yin and yang energy differentiate. Healing or activating some processes with that energy is much much more stronger than any other kind of energy treatment.

And then on the other side of spectrum you have normal energies and energy structures that were created in pregnancy and some after birth, that you must develop to make sure that you can later cultivate prenatal energy.

In meditation and spiritual growth is also important pre natal state, because it is silence, nothingness. As one shaman would say "in that state there is nothing but yet its not empty". So you also have to deal with post natal psyche. Because in order to be able to obtain prenatal state you have to deal with all sub-conscious mind, with all destructive emotions, with all mental blockages that prevent you from the state of flow.

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Well he should from our perspective but from his I'm sure he doesn't care. If you want that knowledge you will pay 3.500 dollars and he'll have a thicker wallet. If you are not ready to pay that amount F**K OFF.

It's cruel but that's life.

PS: in 10-15 years when I gather the money I will tell you are the dvd-s worth the price :D

Yeah, I recommend the Old-School/Martial-Arts way of Temple Style Taichi as taught in the 70's by Grandmaster Waysun Liao in Chicago! Waysun Liao wrote a great book about it's theory in the 70's, the "Taichi Classics". It's the most-sold book about Taichi in the world btw. The second book I would recommend to you is "Tao - The way of God", also written by Waysun Liao.

These books will explain to you the theory behind true internal alchemy.

But Waysun Liao doesn't teach this Nei Kung exercises anymore...at least not openly and not with his DVD's.

The only remaining source for sale of the Nei Kung system in Temple Style Taichi is Gary J. Clyman's Mind Light Nei Kung Set. You can buy it on his website Chikung.com for $3.450. It contains the following items:

-Tidal Wave Chi Kung DVD set (2 DVD's, around 3 hours. Here you learn essential Nei Kung exercises from the temple style taichi system and then you get the "Daily practice routine" where you can do this exercises, condensed in 28 minutes. Every Chi Kung system is always a small piece of a bigger Nei Kung system...at least it's the case with temple style. They are true Nei Kung exercises but not the whole system.)

-Gold Sash DVD (1 DVD with a Tai Chi workout)

-Green Sash DVD (1 DVD, around 1hour, with the exercises you will use to project jing, once you have it...Liao talks shortly about these in the taichi classics book in the chapter "How to transfer (project) internal power")

-Blue Sash DVD (1 DVD, around 1,5 hours, where you learn the rest of the internal Nei Kung exercises)

- and finally: 2 DVD's with the 4 one hour Nei Kung routines A,B,C,D. You then rotate these routines and they will lead you to Jing and beyond...they include all the internal Nei Kung exercises of the temple style taichi system.

-The Nei Kung Bible: All the internal exercises explained in form of photoshopped photos with Gary. It helps very much in understanding what he does on his Nei Kung DVD'S but I would clearly NOT suggest you to buy the Nei Kung Bible ONLY! I couldn't understand what and how to do the stuff by reading the bible. It's also much better to have Gary standing right in front of you on the screen, going with you through the exercises and motivating you to give your best, believe me that!

-the Chi Kung Bible: an older book of Gary about the PPT / Chi Kung training.

Also, back in the 70's under Liao, you first had to go through the entire Taichi moving meditation system and be perfect in it, then you had the chance to learn the precious Nei Kung stuff! Only Gary and a few other people made it this far. Gary fell from grace with Liao because he taught the precious Nei Kung stuff to people FIRST without grinding them through the Taichi stuff before!

 

All right, now some quotes of interest I gathered so far:

WOW! Thank you immensely for explaining the whole process. I got my hands on Tai Chi Classic from Master Liao. Really great material. Everything is much more clearer now.

Now I should start saving and in 10 years buy Clymans DVDs :|

The equation for a "strong energy cultivation" is IN EVERY SYSTEM the same:

• Mind + Life = Power
  
• Yi + Chi = Jing (= Yuan Chi btw.!)
  

What does that mean? Well, Waysun Liao says that you taichi exercise is like an oven.

Your chi is what you want to cook in your oven, "the high-frequenzy energy of your Mind is the Heat" (QUOTE!).

YOU INCREASE THE AMPLITUDE (="MASS") AND THE FREQUENZY (="DENSITY") OF YOUR CHI BY INFUSING YOUR MIND ENERGY IN IT! This "JING" = "Internal POWER" is a fusion of your Mind-Energy and your Life-Energy and therefore controllable by your mind! This JING is also YUAN-CHI, PRE-BIRTH CHI or PRIMAL/PRIMORDIAL CHI! So it's in fact not a fusion but a RE-fusion! Big surprise, the fusion of "water" and "fire" into "steam", the big goal of Taoist Alchemy, that's it!!

 

...and, to all Mo-Pai Lovers: you REALLY think that by concentrating deep into your body into your dantian (and doing reverse-breathing) you will somehow (by the grace of god maybe?) pull heaven-chi (& earth-chi) into your body??? Re-read what I have written above and think sharply about that....!

Maybe you should read some Taoist alchemy Classics translated by Eva Wong, eh!

ALSO: WHY CAN TAICHI MASTERS DO FA-SHEN (transferring power through space without touching you) WITHOUT EVER HAVING MEDITATED WITH THEIR ASSES ON THE EARTH??? Because it's simply a question of FREQUENZY and AMPLITUDE to transfer power through space! No "Yin"-Chi needed, guys! When you came beyond Jing to Shen, then you can do it!

 

Jing, Shen, TE are just "reference points", in fact you just increase more and more the amplitude and frequenzy of your Mind+Chi-Mix!

Thanks Dorian Black. It sounds simple, but that doesn't mean it easy How can somebody do what you wrote? With doing Tai Chi regularly? Do you recommend some books? Teacher?

About Osho, I do not like him at all. In my view, he is negative. I know that he is defending free porn, open marriages, etc. These are not for me. But again, I am sure there are many people who like Osho very much. This is their view. I think differently.

In my opinion there is nothing to like or dislike. You agree with his words or not. He had matured consciousness and he was having fun. In one speech he talks about open marriages and in another he speaks about monogamy And in both cases he is right. It all depends from which angle he is talking. Before he died he said that everything he said in his life was a lie because you cannot describe Truth.

Yin-Yang Gong of Lei Shan Dao is a real thing. I have best friends who experienced it as a first hand. Moreover, it is not only Chang Sifu and Mo-Pai, there are other Sifus and lineages as well. Chang Sifu is very powerful but there are much much higher level masters out there. They just do not show themselves to public. Please do not ask more details. Of course, you have the right not to believe me as well as I have the right not to have to persuade you.

It's not that I disbelieve its more that I am careful what to believe in. For example lots of students of my teacher are saying lots of information about him, what he said on some subject, what he did, etc. And when you ask him is that true, on 99% cases he said that is bulls**t he never said that. And then when I asked my friends and other students why the lied they said because if the say teacher said its more believable.

Another kind of experiences that I had is in martial arts. My friends who are 4th-6th DAN in aikido and Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu said stories that in seminars with some famous masters the master demonstrated to them how he can mentaly stop their attack and he stopped everybody in the room. Next seminar he also did that and I also tried but he couldn't stop me and he got a punch in his face. Why? Because I don't have any subconscious belief that he is above me, better than me and I don;t consider his ultimate master as 99% of people present did. Lot of energy sensations and experiences with teachers are placebo. Watch movie Kumare.

My teacher always said "Do not believe nor disbelieve, always check."

So am not saying that there are no true masters, I would really like to meet them and train under them, but I am not buying every story about them.

 

Something like that, but words are words which we always have to keep in mind, right.

 

Chinese cultivation is, and always has been quite specific from what I've been taught. A couple of phrases one of my teachers uses are, 'the false has become real, and the real has become false', and 'the basic has become advanced' but are because of charlatans, misunderstanding and lineages not being passed on.

 

The teachings within real lineages are simple, many are doing or teaching things with the same names or terms, but they are not doing the same thing. "A rose by another name...." terms and names are not important, but what you doing.

 

You want a good bottle, and you want decent wine in the bottle. Developing either is not developing the other, but both work best together.

 

One daoist teacher told me, it was all about undertstanding the point of change, not the one thing or the other thing, but when and how one changes into the other. Grasping 'that', they said, was important.

 

Why do you think I love stillness-movement neigong

 

Best,

 

P.S. Please note, "Strong Qi" does not mean you have "Electric Qi", and "Electric Qi" does not mean you have "Strong Qi". The sensations you, or someone else feels from the presence and movement of qi have to do with how that qi is manifesting in and moving through the body. Some however will train and practice to be able to reliably manifest those sensations, this is a skill and is different from 'having a type of qi', does that make sense?

It makes perfect sense. Thanks again snowmonki. You know somebody, some system, book, meditation or practice that are teaching those kind of electric jing skills?

In my humble opinion, it is a matter of lineage. If there is a master of a certain true lineage and if that lineage really possess the correct set of techniques, then with the guidance of that master, the results that you are looking for could be achieved.

 

Also, Chang Sifu, Wang Xiangzhai and Robert Peng are not in the same league. I am not sure of Chang Sifu's level, once upon a time I heard that he is level 20 of 72. Again, I am not sure of this information. But anyway, Chang sifu is far more superior than the other two.

 

I would also like to add that I think Wang Xiangzhai's methods of Zhang Zhuang and martial art of Yiquan or Da Cheng Chuan is very valuable, because it is much more easy to access them compared to Mo-Pai and especially Zhang Zhuang could be done by everybody and it is very good for health. Thus, for public interest, Wang Xiangzhai has much more importance than Mo-Pai.

How can you tell that they are not in the same league or that somebody is higher level? Energetic abilities doesn't mean anything. They are horizontal development of individual, while vertical would be just spiritual development (Nisargadatta, Osho, etc).

Most of the stories of those famous teachers are just stories. I don't believe in most of them, I just listed those few names so everybody who reads the thread better understands what I am asking. Especially I don't believe in John Chang stories in Kostas book. I consider them pure fiction just to make people attracted more to energy arts.

Yes. Though I'm being slightly presumptuous. I don't know Robert Peng, and I know enough about Sifu Chang to know I don't know what he does so this is not about him.

 

However in the lines of Xing-yi (and some bagua) there are accounts of this kind of ability, and I am aware of aspects of that.

 

First let me say, 'qi' can be felt either via nerves or from fluids, this I have been taught from several sources and so it seems beyond simply 'one style's' way of thinking. When felt through nerves it tends to be electric, zappy, tingly, or like lightning. Fluids is different. From this it is often clear which systems appear to advocate training that has an emphasis for one or the other or a balanced approach. It is NOT that you have 'electric' qi or whatever, the sensations are just that, and are a feedback for how you feel the qi. With practice you can learn to use qi in ways that produce those sensations more than others. Make sense?

 

You want to balance and practice xiantian (pre-heaven) and houtian (postheaven) methods. The xiantian gong tends to be the deeper more internal stillness practices that take you into yourself and back towards emptiness. The houtian gong tends to be about balancing and developing what and who you are here and now, physically, energetically etc. They are intimately related. Like the phrase 'to go out, go in, to go in, go out'. You can only go so far one way, without a balanced opposite. Xiantian gong tends to emphasise building and developing dantian and zhongmai.

 

Martial artists tend to emphasise houtian, because they need to fight. But the development of intent that aids the xiantian gong is defintely improved through the practice of martial arts.

 

Yi Quan if taught well is great houtian, however it is extremely rare for anyone to be doing xiantian within it.

 

Best,

 

For some more information see;

http://thetaobums.co...ng/#entry340654

So you are saying that if somebody wants to have energetic abilities must develop itself both in and out, to have strong core energetic structures and the most important to be in contact with emptyness from where he manifests his intent?

Teacher, method, student.

 

If someone practiced Zhan Zhuang correctly for 2 hours straight every day for 3-5 years, In my opinion they would be a transformed person, very powerful.

The problem is many people these days are learning from a book, so for many people this is not adequate to practice correctly. In this case the more devoted the student the bigger mess they MIGHT get themselves in, due to extensive practice in a harmful manner.

 

So when you get an excellent teacher with an excellent practice and an excellent student, that is a recipe for success.

Now I can relate to what you are saying. I was one of those people Yesterday I went to my first individual training of Da Cheng Quan and it was mind blowing. Different then anything I read before.

So you both are saying that if you have a genuine teacher and you practice a lot you'll achieve energy powers. It makes sense but what about everybody who trained Xingyiquan and only one person was Wang. Why didn't all students of his teacher had the same level of energy control. Or Morihei Ueshiba, who created aikido. He was the only one with absolute control with energy processes and from all of his students the was only Gozo Shioda who came very close to Morihei. And other hundreds of people who trained even more then Gozo with genuine teacher could not do what he did.

I don't think there is a system guarantees energy powers.

And on the other end of the spectrum you have Padre Pio (Francesco Forgione) who didn't do any particular energy cultivation, nei gong, or dan tien exercises he was just a monk and he prayed entire day and he was stigmata and very famous healer. He could cure cancer in few seconds.

Yes that is true, and I cannot agree more on that. But I know a few people that are practicing Zhan Zhuang for 2h per day for few years and they have only health benefits and on the other hand you have Master Wang who also practised Zhan Zhuang and he was well Master Wang

There most be something more to any cultivation beside exercise.

Does somebody know what made master Wang Xiangzhai, Robert Peng, newly famous John Chang, etc that strong in manifesting and controlling energy and energetic processes, zapping touch, etc? Is it just strong dan tiens or they have activated some parts of mind that other practitioners didn't or couldn't? I know a lot of people that are training some forms of qigong every day for 1-3h for 30 years and nothing, and Master Wang just did Zhan Zhuang and he went really in depth of controlling energy. Every individual with those kind of supreme energy control did different style/approach to training and because of that I cannot see any overlap in what they did except meditation and devotion to energy arts

Is there something special that person has to develop as ability or make strong some energy structure to start developing those kind of abilities or you just practice daily energy work and meditation and it will come if you have those kind of potentials inside you?

Thanks

Thank you

Thank you endlessly for your effort and patience to bring me closer understanding of zhong mai I really appreciate it.

Or you just try to pull your abs toward the spine and automatically your cremaster muscle will be activated. So you do that a lot of times and soon you will be able to feel cremaster muscle isolated, and then VOILA.

When I was in the high school in second grade I trained a little shaolin wushu and the teacher told us stories how monks can pull testicles into abdomen so I practiced and in a month of every day fooling around I succeed it. But it has its consequences.

It certainly is by far the best story, character development, philosophy I have ever saw in any movie or tv series. I like Legends of Korra too. It is also very good because characters are older then they were in Last Airbander and the series are in some ways deeper because characters have more mature emotions and more mature questions are broth to light.

Thank you again snowmonkey for your answer and recommended reading and yes you have left me speechless

I think that I have understood what you are saying in total but please let me just recapitulate your posts with my words to see if we are on the same page, to prevent any confusion and distortion of words. Please in few word just correct me if I’m mistaken at any point.

You should not believe everything you read or hear just for the reason the author is Chinese. The are many perspectives on the energy processes and it depends on the focus of some system. For example I will take chong mai because it is the main reason for discussion here. If you take too books and they’re both using name chong mai it doesn’t mean that they are talking about the same thing. You should take in your consideration authors background, profession, etc. And on the other hand if one author uses name zhong mai, another chong mai and third middle mai or centar channel they may be talking about the same thing It is not the label that matters it is the function and principle that matters and underlying experience author is trying to explain.

I have found Tao & Longevity and read the part where Master Nan explains the channels. He said that he hasn’t found central channel in old Chinese books but that there is one part in Yellow emperors book that it addresses to Central Channel but there is called Chong Mai and that he found parallel in Tibetan channel system Middle Mai with its parts Right Mai and Left Mai. I have also found in one of Ken Kohen audiobooks Taoist version of alternate nose breathing where he describes central channel exactly as Master Nan described it in his great book. Both description of that channel are exactly the same as Indian yoga description of Shushumna, Ida and Pingala.

After long period of inner work with my teacher we firstly opened chakras and than after a while we worked at rising kundalini. I also had vision of columns and spirals. Isn’t that interesting I searched for your recommendations if practice and they are very very similar to what yoga teaches to open shushumna (central chakra channel). So my bold conclusion here is that shushumna (central channel in yoga) is actually the same thing as Zhong Mai (central channel in Taoism). That the only difference between them are slightly different descriptions (I think due to different uses of words in their systems) but the end experience and method are overlappin, the same consequences if they are played with AND they both are alchemical approaches (kundalini tantra/yoga and alchemical qigong).

I really want to fully understand what you are saying so please correct me I didn’t understand any of your points.

Thank you again for your very kind answers.