Shagrath

1 hour ago, freeform said:

 

I wouldn't like to guess what Nathan means by practices higher than neidan - way beyond my paygrade anyway

 

 

 

They are two distinctly different processes... It may well be that they reach the same 'end goal' - but by different routes. One works by the transformation of the substances the other works by using meditative work combined with work on the central channel (and the various aspects of the upper dantien).

 

 

 

This level of practice is out of reach for most practitioners and the techniques and theory are shrouded in secrecy and impenetrable poetic explanations in classical works. It can only really be accessed with a teacher - and then you'd usually be an inner-door disciple for many years before being taught. This is especially true within Shangqing - as this sort of practice opens up a door into a huge range of 'siddhi' and sorcery type work.

 

That being said, you could try out Nathan's own book recently published... and Wang Li Ping's book too. I think they touch on these things.

 

Just remember that when you see your tooth in the mirror - you only see a small part of it - the majority of the tooth - the root - is actually hidden within the gums. So you might see practices working at this level - but you don't necessarily see that there's a whole range of foundational practices and attainments that make this stuff actually 'work'.

Thank you very much for honest answer.  My wish is to learn Wang Liping system, but there are many unsurmountable obstacles. Earnings, country I live in, etc and yet I have high interest in those topics. Life can deal strange hands sometimes

Thank you.

9 hours ago, silent thunder said:

At my retreat, with Master Wang, full lotus was not stressed at all.

The benefits of it were explained but it was not stated as required for advancement, only that it can help intensify and speed things up in efficiency.  I sat in half lotus, which I can do indefinitely.  Full lotus is a strain on my knees that I do not push.

 

Our sessions averaged 3 hours.  Sleep sessions ranged from one to four hours on the dot.  Tree work was briefly explained and then we were left to explore it, or not, on our own.

 

What stood out was there was nothing fundamentalist in any of the offered teachings.  It was decidedly open, relaxed and supportive.  Not rigid or militaristic in any way.  Though I guess Master Wang used to be much more demanding in his early teaching years based on some of his own and Richard's descriptions.

 

Two individuals sat in chairs.

 

One was disabled and hobbled along slowly with two forearm canes.

Another had long term hip issues that prevented him from sitting on the floor for five years.  This guy experienced a resounding pop in his injured hip on the second or third day and then was able to join us on the floor for the remaining days.

 

The disabled man using crutches, was able to sit on pillows on the floor by the end of the retreat.

 

As for Master Wang's books.  I would not recommend them to a beginner.  They are perhaps too technical and too dense to be approachable.  They would have been for me in my early years.  They're still daunting for one as conditioned as I still am.

 

The Roots of Chinese Qi Gong by Yang Jwing-Ming.  Yellow Emperor's Classic of Medicine.  The Complete Book of Chinese Health and Healing by Daniel Reed all come to mind as very helpful books in my early exploration.

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the insight. How long do those retreats with Master Liping last? Does he have some levels he goes by? For example you need 10 retreats to learn all techniques, and then its to you to practice. Or after first retreat you have homework until next year, then you learn level 2 of the practice?

10 hours ago, freeform said:

It's more of a side-branch within the Longmen tradition. It runs parallel to internal alchemy (which is the main 'trunk' of Longmen practice).

 

From my experience, the lineage that dives deepest into this form of practice (this includes 'golden flower' type practices) - is Shangqing Daoism (also known as Maoshan).

Thanks freeform,

I have couple questions about this. I would really appreciate your take on that.

1) In his online course Nathan Brine says there are taoist practices that are "higher" then neidan. Would you have any idea what it would that be? Some meditations?

2) What is the difference between golden flower and golden elixir? Some say its the same, and that those are just different names for true nature of one self.

3) Where can I find more about those practices? The only resource I know about Shangqing is book by Isabelle Robinet. Can you recommend some teachers, websites, books?

And you can always go to more academic books by Livia Kohn, Eva Wong, Fabrizio Pregadio, Louis Komjathy and Isabelle Robinet. Maybe Stuart A. Olson, Tom Bisio, etc.

Just find the authors page on amazon, and search titles about alchemy.

Hi all,

Recently I saw this video of Nathan Brine https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hi16r-tST98 about using the Celestial Eye in Taoist alchemy. That explanation sounded A LOT like Dzogchen's thogal. Slightly different narrative but seeing the lights and light visions are quite the same.

It was amazing to see this similarity is different traditions. Does anyone knows something about this? Are there any more Taoist sects next to Longmen sect that have this kind of practice?

Longmen sect is part of Quanzhen sect, which incorporated both Buddhist, Confucian and Taoist practices. Can one tell if celestial eye/thogal is historically Taoist practice borrowed by Bon/Buddhists or Bon/Buddhist practice borrowed by Taoists?

edit: maybe even both Taoist and Dzogchen came to same practice empirically. Who knows....

Thank you for sharing. Great gift for all of us

Do you have any plans to put all level online eventually? For us less fortunate born in third world countries where attending such seminars with you or master Wang are nothing more then crazy dreams?

There is a UK based dzogchen and mahamudra teacher James Low.  He uploads all of his lectures to vimeo and youtube.

Here are the links:

http://www.simplybeing.co.uk/

https://vimeo.com/jameslow

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBedQobRrnDDaYUEtPi46pg/

I am more then satisfied with Mingyur Rinpoches online courses Joy of Life. https://tergar.org/

Also there is https://dharmasun.org/tte/ what Aetherous suggested. School of Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche.

There is also https://samyeinstitute.org/ This is online platform for teachings of Phakchok Rinpoche. He is grandson of famous Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche, and nephew to above mentioned Mingyur and Chokyi.

Those schools are both Dzogchen and Mahamudra traditions (nyingma kagyu), and Tulku Urgyen Rinpoches lineage.

I am more then satisfied with Mingyur Rinpoches online courses Joy of Life. https://tergar.org/

Also there is https://dharmasun.org/tte/ what Aetherous suggested. School of Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche.

There is also https://samyeinstitute.org/ This is online platform for teachings of Phakchok Rinpoche. He is grandson of famous Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche, and nephew to above mentioned Mingyur and Chokyi.

Those schools are both Dzogchen and Mahamudra traditions (nyingma kagyu), and Tulku Urgyen Rinpoches lineage.

5 hours ago, 9th said:

 

How does your body take the food you eat with your mouth, and turn it into electrical energy... that causes the muscles attached to your skeleton to contract, and causes the endocrine system to create hormonal solutions, and causes the neurons within the corpus callosum to synchronize functions across the hemispheres, and so forth and so on??

 

Start there, then get back to me once you have mastered the ability to take such electrical energy and transform it back into food.

Honestly, I have never been much into koans.

On 11/1/2017 at 11:02 AM, C T said:

Dissolve the solidly-held views of an independent self, and the siddhis will reveal their secrets effortlessly. 

 

Both are in the nature of illusion. While most know that about siddhis, most dont know that about the self. 

That is the point of conflict. Where conflict is, there is no possibility for siddhis to manifest. 

 

Every aspect of the path towards the cultivation of liberation must be harmoniously blended into knowing exactly what 'liberation' is, and what is to be let go of in the process. 

Thank you very much for this answer. It made a lot of thing much clearer. That guy said that next to those several exercises for concentration, focus and will development, in later stages there is A LOT of meditation, no-thought states, emptiness etc.

Thank you once more

34 minutes ago, already said:

 

That type of qualitative concentration you want has not much use.

People who are interested in TB practices, practice concentration up to a point and only as a means to other steps .

They do not practice these things to the level you want.

They stop much earlier .Because you dont need that type of concentration to go trough all the curriculum.

 

In the end Understanding and realizing emptiness would take care of your wish to develop " laser like concentration and focus to be able to bend spoon"

I believe that it's like you are saying. I do not have much experience in TB practices nor TB philosophical system. But still I wish to push concentration to those limits, for some deeply personal reasons and plus because if one person could do it and I saw it, why could't I also.

2 minutes ago, already said:

It would be a waste of time to learn tibetan buddhism in order to bend spoons.

Yes, it definitely would. And would also be really miserable to put one religion on that level.

I think you misunderstood me a little bit. I do not want to be able to bend spoons. That is the furthest goal. What I wish is to develop deep understanding of emptiness, and laser like concentration and focus to be able to bend spoon. As I said in original post, I wish that bending spoon, moving some object, or sprouting seeds be the test of my concentration and will and absolutely be not the goal in its self.

Anyhow, I am already studying Mahayana buddhism. For now Nagarjuna, Dogen and Paul Williams and practising shikantaza.

13 hours ago, Wells said:

 

Concentration? Focus? Psychokinesis?

Sounds to me as if you could find in the yoga sutras what you are looking for...

 

Thank you. That is actually great place to start. I will dive into yogic practices to search for an answer.

But the true problem is following. I know the drills (there are several of them, and I have never read anything like it, but I never gone deep into yoga), but what later. How can I actually apply the fruits of practice to actually make seeds sprout. Just will it really hard? Visualize? Sing Despacito out loud while I am turned to west to face Puerto Rico and focus on sprouting? I do not have a clue.

2 hours ago, C T said:

And what will change for you and your practice should you receive personal testimonies (related to your OP) from anyone here? 

 

In case you are hoping that whomsoever makes a declaration here that they have such abilities, and then offer to teach you online, my advice is to weigh your options with great care. You will never be able to learn these abilities without devoting at least a few years of your time in secluded practice, under the guidance of a live, authentic guru(s). Without these prerequisite conditions, your quest will potentially be hazardous. 

I agree with you totally and I am aware of consequences of going that road by myself. Thats why I do not want a teacher nor am I seeking one. I just asked for some possible literature or some advice, nothing else. I am involved in other practices with some authentic teachers, and I just want to try out this a little bit (few years ).

12 hours ago, C T said:

Maybe not now, but at some point, if your circumstances would allow, you ought to try to venture out to the Himalayan regions for a few years. It takes time, but if you can spare that, then it is very likely that you will witness these displays of mind control. But the genuine siddhas wont be easy to find though. Lots of fake ones around, so be wise and sincere if you happen to get there. 

Thank you, but I have nor time nor money for that kind of adventure

I thought as solution to be that someone who first handedly experienced or succeeded with that kind of ability to share some resource. It's a long shot, but it's more likely then me going to Tibet.

Hi everyone,

Until few years ago I was heavily into qigong, neigong (wudang-pai and longmen-pai) and I have even done some healing sessions with quite interesting (some believable results) but I have never ever succeeded in any psychokinetic ability (moving matchstick, moving folded aluminum foil/paper, bending spoon/fork, etc).

I saw in person one guy who was somewhere in Tibet for 15 years and he said that trick is only in concentration and focus. That he had a test after those 5 years to bend the spoon. And that was the test of pure focus and concentration. But he stated that this knowledge was behind doors knowledge, never written only taught in person. Also, I saw bean and wheat grain sprout/germinate in his hand in a matter of seconds. He told me how this is possible with enough practice and he would teach me, but unfortunately he passed away since he was really old.

Has anyone ever gone this path? Is there any good material on this topic? Any Tibetan Buddhist exercises on medicine, meditation, healing?

Thank you very much in forward
S.

PS: I am sorry if I missed the subforum but since that guy was Buddhist (Tibetan Buddhist to be more precise) I figured to place the question here.

I'm beginning to get tired of repeating myself !

That means that you need to practice more to have more qi so you don't get tired :D

Joking aside. Wudang Pai and Longmen Pai are neigong. But only as a complete systems. Many teachers teach just one aspect of them so students and readers get different impressions of those systems. In both systems you must work heavily on your Jing. That is one hell of a work. It's physically demanding and quite exhausting. And after you buildt solid foundation you move on to yangqi, shen, yuenqi, etc.

Forget books. Practicing on your own can be really dangerous. Go with Lam Kam Chuen if you want to with the books and be completely safe.

I would suggest you find some good teacher of Wudang Pai or Longmen Pai

PS: as I heard it from one monk Wang Liping books are the closest to the authentic teachings of neidan out of all commercial books. But still the risks of not having someone to guide you and to interpret the theory are high.

Jesus represents a person who is natural and who reached the state of I am (eheieh) or I am that I am (Eheieh asher eheieh). In the flesh he is the same as all of us, hence the name Jesus Christ that we connect to his looks and deeds doesn't mean a thing. His "inside" world, his realization is what truly matters and what we all should strive for. To be ourselfs like he was himself. Not to copy him, not to follow him in his footsteps because then we are becoming him and that is not being authentic. Whenever he says that he is the mystical gate, that you must reach him, you must except him as a leader he doesn't mean him as a Jesus Christ, he alludes to him as a son of God, as we all are.

The Bible describes the state of the man on his path toward consiousness, in the psychodramic method of that time, and describes the general way of the people. Also, allegories, associations, metaphors, personifications, symbolism of that time must be understood for bible to truly make sense.

All of this only matters if that is what a man recognizes that he is drawn to, as someone is be pulled towards being singer, or football player, pilot, or a pianist.

What one holy man from Mount Athos said: "Better genuine baker, then fake mystic."

So if we break it down again:

 

jesus is:

 

god/saviour

 

archetype/catalyst

 

all explained = Tiphareth

 

Shagrath, on 15 Oct 2013 - 17:21, said:

 

what jesus represents:

 

Matthew

Those who bear bad fruit will be cut down and burned "with unquenchable fire." 3:10, 12

Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn't the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. 5:17

Jesus recommends that to avoid sin we cut off our hands and pluck out our eyes. This advice is given immediately after he says that anyone who looks with lust at any women commits adultery. 5:29-30

Jesus says that most people will go to hell. 7:13-14

Those who fail to bear "good fruit" will be "hewn down, and cast into the fire." 7:19

"The children of the kingdom [the Jews] shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 8:12

Jesus tells a man who had just lost his father: "Let the dead bury the dead." 8:21

Jesus sends some devils into a herd of pigs, causing them to run off a cliff and drown in the waters below. 8:32

Cities that neither "receive" the disciples nor "hear" their words will be destroyed by God. It will be worse for them than for Sodom and Gomorrah. And you know what God supposedly did to those poor folks (see Gen 19:24). 10:14-15

Families will be torn apart because of Jesus (this is one of the few "prophecies" in the Bible that has actually come true). "Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." 10:21

Jesus says that we should fear God who is willing and "able to destroy both soul and body in hell." 10:28

Jesus says that he has come to destroy families by making family members hate each other. He has "come not to send peace, but a sword." 10:34-36

Jesus condemns entire cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of hell because they didn't care for his preaching. 11:20-24

Jesus will send his angels to gather up "all that offend" and they "shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." 13:41-42, 50

Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: "He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death." (See Ex 21:15, Lev 20:9, Dt 21:18-21) So, does Jesus think that children who curse their parents should be killed? It sure sounds like it. 15:4-7

"Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up." 15:13

Jesus advises his followers to mutilate themselves by cutting off their hands and plucking out their eyes. He says it's better to be "maimed" than to suffer "everlasting fire." 18:8-9

In the parable of the unforgiving servant, the king threatens to enslave a man and his entire family to pay for a debt. This practice, which was common at the time, seems not to have bothered Jesus very much. The parable ends with this: "So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you." If you are cruel to others, God will be cruel to you. 18:23-35

"And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors." 18:34

God is like a rich man who owns a vineyard and rents it to poor farmers. When he sends servants to collect the rent, the tenants beat or kill them. So he sent his son to collect the rent, and they kill him too. Then the owner comes and kills the farmers and rents the vineyard to others. 21:33-41

"Whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder." Whoever falls on "this stone" (Jesus) will be broken, and whomever the stone falls on will be ground into powder. 21:44

In the parable of the marriage feast, the king sends his servants to gather everyone they can find, both bad and good, to come to the wedding feast. One guest didn't have on his wedding garment, so the king tied him up and "cast him into the outer darkness" where "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 22:1-14

The end of the world will be signaled by wars, famines, disease, and earthquakes (6-7). And that's just "the beginning of sorrows" (8). Next believers will be hated and killed by unbelievers (9), believers will hate and betray each other (10), false prophets will fool people (11), iniquity will abound and love wax cold (12). But hey, if you make through all that, you'll be saved (13).

Only one more thing will happen before the end comes: the gospel will be preached throughout the world (14). Well, that and the abomination of desolations will stand in the holy place (15), many false Christs and false prophets will show great signs and wonders (24), the sun and moon will be darkened and the stars will fall (29), the sign of the son of Man will appear in the sky, everyone on earth will mourn, and then, finally, the great and powerful son of Man will come in all his glory (30).

Oh, and all these things will happen within the lifespan of Jesus' contemporaries (34).

Or maybe not. Jesus was talking about things he knew nothing about (36). (See Mark 13:32.) 24:3-51

Jesus had no problem with the idea of drowning everyone on earth in the flood. It'll be just like that when he returns. 24:37

God will come when people least expect him and then he'll "cut them asunder." And "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 24:50-51

The parable of the cruel and unjust master
The kingdom of heaven is like a rich man who distributed his wealth to his servants while he traveled. He gave five talents (a talent was a unit of money, worth about 20 years of a worker's wages) to one servant, two to another, and one to a third. When he returned, the servant with five talents had made five more, the servant with two made two more, but the servant with one talent only had the talent his master entrusted to him. The master rewarded the servants that invested his money (without his permission -- what would have happened if the stock market went down during their master's travels?) and took the talent from the single-talent servant and gave it to the one with ten talents. "For unto every one that hath shall be given .. but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath." Then the cruel and unjust master cast the servant who carefully protected his master's talent into the "outer darkness: [where] there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 25:14-30

The servant who kept and returned his master's talent was cast into the "outer darkness" where there will be "weeping and gnashing of teeth." 25:30

Jesus judges the nations. 25:31-46

Jesus tells us what he has planned for those that he dislikes. They will be cast into an "everlasting fire." 25:41

Jesus says the damned will be tormented forever. 25:46

Mark

Jesus explains why he speaks in parables: to confuse people so they will go to hell. 4:11-12

Jesus sends devils into 2000 pigs, causing them to jump off a cliff and be drowned in the sea. When the people hear about it, they beg Jesus to leave. 5:12-13

Any city that doesn't "receive" the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. 6:11

Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children as required by Old Testament law. (See Ex 21:15, Lev 20:9, Dt 21:18-21) 7:9-10

Jesus tells us to cut off our hands and feet, and pluck out our eyes to avoid going to hell. 9:43-49

God is like a rich man who owns a vineyard and rents it to poor farmers. When he sends servants to collect the rent, the tenants beat or kill them. So he sent his son to collect the rent, and they kill him too. Then the owner comes and kills the farmers and gives the vineyard to others. 12:1-9

Jesus tells his disciples to eat his body and drink his blood. 14:22-24

Jesus says that those that believe and are baptized will be saved, while those who don't will be damned. 16:16

Luke

Zechariah asks the angel Gabriel how his wife Elizabeth could become pregnant, since she is "stricken with years." Gabriel makes him "dumb" just for asking. 1:20

Those who fail to bear "good fruit" will be "hewn down, and cast into the fire." 3:9

John the Baptist says that Christ will burn the damned "with fire unquenchable." 3:17

Jesus heals a naked man who was possessed by many devils by sending the devils into a herd of pigs, causing them to run off a cliff and drown in the sea. This messy, cruel, and expensive (for the owners of the pigs) treatment did not favorably impress the local residents, and Jesus was asked to leave. 8:27-37

Jesus says that entire cities will be violently destroyed and the inhabitants "thrust down to hell" for not "receiving" his disciples. 10:10-15

Jesus says that we should fear God since he has the power to kill us and then torture us forever in hell. 12:5

Jesus says that God is like a slave-owner who beats his slaves "with many stripes." 12:46-47

"Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." 13:3, 5

According to Jesus, only a few will be saved; the vast majority will suffer eternally in hell where "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 13:23-30

In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, the rich man goes to hell, because as Abraham explains, he had a good life on earth and so now he will be tormented. Whereas Lazarus, who was miserable on earth, is now in heaven. This seems fair to Jesus. 16:19-31

Jesus believed the story of Noah's ark. He thought it really happened and had no problem with the idea of God drowning everything and everybody. 17:26-27

Jesus also believes the story about Sodom's destruction. He says, "even thus shall it be in the day the son of man is revealed ... Remember Lot's wife." This tells us about Jesus' knowledge of science and history, and his sense of justice. 17:29-32

In the parable of the talents, Jesus says that God takes what is not rightly his, and reaps what he didn't sow. The parable ends with the words: "bring them [those who preferred not to be ruled by him] hither, and slay them before me." 19:22-27

Jesus tells his disciples to eat his body and drink his blood. 22:19-20

John

Jesus believed the stupid and vicious story from Numbers 21. (God sent snakes to bite the people for complaining about the lack of food and water. Then God told Moses to make a brass snake to cure them from the bites.) 3:14

"God so loved the world, that he gave his His only begotten Son."
As an example to parents everywhere and to save the world (from himself), God had his own son tortured and killed. 3:16

People are damned or saved depending only on what they believe. 3:18, 36

The "wrath of God" is on all unbelievers. 3:36

Jesus believes people are crippled by God as a punishment for sin. He tells a crippled man, after healing him, to "sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee." 5:14

Those who do not believe in Jesus will be cast into a fire to be burned. 15:6

Jesus says we must eat his flesh and drink his blood if we want to have eternal life. This idea was just too gross for "many of his disciples" and "walked no more with him." 6:53-66

 

OK SO WHO WANTS THIS GUY AS THEIR TAI CHI MASTER? (FOR ALL ETERNITY)

All in all, it doesn't matter whether he was real or fictional, what matters is what he represents.

Can someone Please recommend some books and DVDs?

Video:

https://www.youtube.com/user/StandStillBeFit/videos

Books:

Peter den Dekker - The dynamics of standing still

Master Lam Kam-Chuen - The way of energy

Master Lam Kam-Chuen - The way of power

Yes, these are not correct information. It is because energy cannot be blocked. Chi blockage was an misinterpretation. In TCM, Chi blockage means the function of a organ was out of order; it can be completely or partially. If more thoughts added to that will be very misleading. When people interpret as "energy blockage", there goes the endless confusion.

 

"focus on strengthening all 3 dan tiens, central channel, 8 extraordinary channels, nourish heaven (stars, sun, moon), earth (soil, water, wind), man (jing, qi, shen), fire-water"

 

Channels are nothing but place holders; only the physical body can be strengthened.

 

"nourish heaven (stars, sun, moon), earth (soil, water, wind), man (jing, qi, shen), fire-water"

Unless they were interpreted esoterically, otherwise, they make no sense to an ordinary person.

THX

Kudos chenpalyer