shanlung

Takaaki! I just finished reading that debate on American Taoist largely between you and Marblehead! I will look with interest to that continuation. I am getting tongue tied here and at a loss how to answer Phi92 without stepping on toes as I do not desire to step on toes. I have enough problem with my foot in my mouth. I have no intention to insult anyone. Especially even if I am not a mystic, TTC to me is almost pure mysticsm. Or at the least, the finger that point to the moon , bearing in mind one should never mistake the finger pointing to the moon as the moon itself. I spend many years of my earlier life trying to rationalised the Tao in my attempt to understand the Tao. I can only excuse that my earlier life was rather foolish. And as said by me in my introduction, I was sitting on a deer (or ass, or Amercian Chevy) in search of the deer (or ass, or American Chevy) At best I can say is that I seen the Tao in the corner of my eye mystically. But every time I looked at it directly, the Tao disappeared, or I just cannot find the words to nail down what I have seen. Which is why I think hunting that pot of gold at the rainbow's end will give me good warmup exercise first. Then I should try to articulate the sound of one hand clapping. And then I will try again to define the Tao, by first defining the Taoist and then by mental jujitsu, remove the ist and therefore get to what I want to do in the first place which is to define the Tao. Idiot on the Path

I have been using that to sign off even in the days of Bitnet, a long time before Internet. I was away from this forum for a few months. Here is my first posting in this forum. You can see that as part of my signature even then. Might shine more light on the way I write. I am the Idiotic Taoist http://thetaobums.com/topic/24749-i-am-the-idiotic-taoist/#entry358209

YMWong, I felt so devastated by what you told me. I should have known it then. But I guessed at that time, too many gruesome images of collapsed school buildings and totally flattened villages got to the TV. Even the panda sanctuary got hit too. And CCS was not mentioned in CNN/BBC. I spend about a week in CCS. I would have spend even longer time there. I took a lot of photos. But sadly those were digital and in the hard drive when a strange entity fingered that sending those jpgs to oblivion with everything in that drive. So those Taoist temples and their Taoist monks exist now only in my memories of those days. Really sad. Even if the temples are rebuilt, they would not be the same as those centuries old temples that I saw and loved then. Idiotic Taoist

ok ok, Relax. I readily admit my flaws. Part of which is to write tongue in cheek, or even with foot in mouth. I look forward to wonderful and meaningful answers from all others. And hopefully, find that pot of gold as well. Taoistic Idiot

How nice! I love parrots too. And cat as well. Here is a photo of both of them Idiot on the Path

Easier to get to that pot of gold than to define the Tao, or to know what a Taoist is. I never knew people can get so annoyed when they do not get the answer that they want. The Taoistic Idiot

I hope you are not trying to make innuendo that I am a mystic, or even trying to be mystical. Since you are so full of answers, even if you do not know the question, why not you give yourself an answer that you be happy with regardless of the question being asked. That way you please yourself to your heart's content. The Idiotic Taoist

Try to find the time to go to ChingCheng Shan 青城山 near Chengdu. I am ethnic Chinese and while English is my mother tongue (legacy of old British Empire), I can communicate well enough in Mandarin. I was there in 1998. Even then, Wudangshan, Shaolin were already so commercialised. But not so in ChingCheng Shan. Lots of interesting grottos in CCS with resident Taoist monks. Almost all were razor sharp and so iconic in talking to me. If ever I decide to go into hermitage, I will go find that place in ChingCheng Shan. I pray the changes in China spared ChingCheng Shan. Please excuse my wishful thinking.

Try to find the time to read my take on what wuwei is. Even though I wrote that over 12 years ago, and as part of martial arts background to do with fa jing. http://www.shanlung.com/oldwuwei.html Perhaps you might not even disagree, even if my explanation of both wuwei and fajing was woefully inadequate.

If I can define the Dao or Tao, I can define for you what is a Daoist or Taoist. The problem is that the Tao itself cannot be defined. Not somewhere in some obscure passages of the Tao Te Ching, but right at the beginning. Tao ke Tao , fei chang Tao Ming ke Ming, fei chang Ming The Tao that you think is the Tao, is not the Tao The Name that you think is the Name, is not the Name If the Tao cannot be defined, do explain to me how the Taoist can ever be defined. I think I spend my time far better in hunting down that pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

Sadly I agree with you. As said before, tables are about the only thing with 4 legs that will not be eaten by Chinese. My dear departed mom (who was a staunch devoted Buddhist by the way) used to make me cringed every time National Geog was on TV. She would go and say how bear , antelope and tiger was to be cooked and braised with ginger and soya sauce and garlic. Must have came from a time when Chinese were very hungry. In fact, Chinese greeting to another Chinese to this day will be have you eaten full already? And if the creature is not delicious (like a well braised dog), then the creature will be very good for the ying or the yang ( like a well braised cat) I think a well braised chicken will be both delicious and good for the ying or the yang. With no fear of chicken extinction as well. Taoistic Idiot

Ha ha ha! I almost think you are trying to say you are more holy than the Dalai Lama. Know more about Buddhism than the Dalai Lama! Gasp! Are you Buddha Incarnate? Opps, Buddha also love to eat meat. And if so, why do a wannabe Buddha come posturing here in in Taoist forum? Dont you know I decided to be Taoist because eating meat, drinking wine, eating dog is ok? Shouldn't you be in some kind of vege forum? Join the incarnate of Adolf Hitler who is a vegetarian? Idiot rambling on the Path

Dalai Lama loves a good thick juicy steak, and he loves it very rare. Dont take my word, go google and check. I do not think he is young, or doing much physical work either. Idiotic Taoist

I see mankind as a kind of rampant cancer gone wild. Even worse is that we moralised we have the right, because we are mankind, to subjucate all beasts in the forest and fields, all birds in the air and trees and all fishes in the sea, because they all are given to us by a God above. Almost as bad as the Chinese saying all things with 4 legs other than tables are to be eaten. Some even go to the extent that they are the Chosen Race. Many others are just as bad in accepting them as the Chosen Race, and lands of other people to be given to the Chosen Race, and that Chosen Race have the right to rain down phosphorus shells and bombs in precision strike on hospitals and schools should the people they took the land from objected to being disposed of their land. While we all babble on here, the tipping point had passed and gone. The outcome of our joint stupidity will be unfolding starkly in front of us. In not too distant future, we will envy those who had died. Idiotic Taoist.

This is a long long thread and I do not have the time now to start from beginning, not for a few days. I just want to say ShenLung is a completely different entity. Recep, we have had a perfectly civil and delightful private conversation. I got caught up in other events outside the forum and have no time to continue on the private conversation with you, just like I have no time to read the prior 11 pages here and other threads

A last hurrah , except I did not even knew it when I saw it. And a glimpse into a Taoist temple off Batu Pahat in Johore state of Malaysia. http://shanlung.livejournal.com/139880.html Idiotic Taoist http://shanlung.com/

Phillip Little final journey http://shanlung.livejournal.com/140443.html Taoistic Idiot

Thank you. I have to be grateful that after 30++ years , I managed to see him for the last time before he went. The British Embassy finally gave over his body to us all when it was found he had no Next Of Kin in UK or anywhere else. Phillip was one of those send to country side from London during WW2. He came back to find a crater in the ground instead of his house. His friends/NOK have been bums like me. And who heard him when he told us he wanted to remain in Batu Pahat. We will say goodbye to him this coming saturday, and later lay to rest his ashes in the sea in front of his balcony.

Thank you. I tried to be as factual about what I had been through. I know there are some here who think they are god gift to those that they think are unscientifically inclined. That they then had to show their logical scientific mind to shine their light on dumb folks like us and cast their pearls of wisdom to us peasants. I have written enough papers to peer reviewed engineering journals in the past. That started 40 years ago or so. I wish those folks who must show their brilliant scientific minds to focus on writing their own papers to scientific journals. Even better still will be to go win their Nobel prizes instead of stumping about here showing their scientific expertise. Or having the gumption to talk to me about photography techniques as if I am so dumb to need their mealy mouth advise on camera settings. As if I had not been taking photographs (unlike their snapshots) over last 40 years. That I need their scientific explanations. After all, there are so many other threads that he can go into. Taoistic Idiot

thelerner, Thank you. A bit more on Phillip End of Qatar and visit to Riamfada & Dommie//Sieben //Phillip http://shanlung.livejournal.com/140208.html Taoistic Idiot

Figured it all you want. While you are at it, figure out too which part is a lie and for that matter, why do you even bother to read what I write. I do not bother to read you anymore and you can join that hot air worm in my bin. You make good company for him. Idiotic Taoist Why not you

It was the recent discussions on the 6th Patriach HuiNeng that brought this back from my memories. It was in the mid 1990s where I was living in a small fishing village Sai Kung in the New Territories of Hongkong. Which was next door to Guangzhou. I made a lot of small trips into Guangzhou, and a lot of longer trips into far flung parts of China. But this was one of the smaller trip into the province of Guangzhou. To Shaoquan and a temple NanHwaSi 南華寺 near that town. And later on you realised why I wrote of that in this particular thread. Travels in those days were nothing like the travelling in China of nowadays. Buses were crowded and roads small and potholed. Money, especially USD was a lot bigger than, and pace of life much slower. NanHwaSi was a vast sprawling Zen monastery with history stretching back over a thousand years and more. One of the reasons why I went to NanHuaSi was the purported mummifed remains of the 6th Patriach HuiNeng in the monastery. I have said HuiNeng went on to settle in PoLin Monastery. That was correct. That was the name when he went there in 700AD. Song Dynasty Emperor Taizong changed the name to NanHwaSi in 968AD. Which was why the mummified remains of HuiNeng was in Nanhwasi. I stayed over in the domitories of NanHwaSi for a few nights. Ample time to explore the vast grounds of Nanhwasi. And to see, taste and smell the goings and the rituals of the temple which started before the break of dawn. The crystal clear sound of a bell with the beating throbbing of the wooden fish interlace with the chants of prayers. How much of the temple was old and how much rebuilt I could not tell. Apparently horrors of Chinese civil war aka the Red Guards visited this place. Only the prestige of departed Patriach Hsu Yun saved this old temple from even worse horrors. For those who do not know, Hsu Yun was the acknowledged Patriach of all Zen temples be them North or South. HuiNeng body was behind glass panels. I looked as closely as I could and was disappointed that it looked like carved out of wood. Apparently it was truly mummified. Japanese occupation during WW2 examined the body to show bones and internal organs. HuiNeng was very highly respected by the Japanese and also the presence of Hsu Yun was very highly regarded. There were signs and posters that no photography allowed of HuiNeng's mummy. In those days, only the posters were there with no custodians. The only human or humanoid in the room was yours truly and his friend and HuiNeng. I took a few photos with flash. Then I turned off the flash to take even more photos in case the glass reflect the flash.. I eventually went back to Hongkong to see the digital photos I had taken with my Olympus Photos of the NanHwaSi were beautiful and clear, of the temple and of the grounds. All the photos taken of HuiNeng, with the flash, and without the flash, were all fogged over. All photos before , and after were ok. This was in about 1996, way before that strange incident with my camera and my wife's camera of the little road side temple in 2002 as I related in Fragments. When I found the cameras could not shoot that temple, I recollected the incident of NanHwaSi immediately there and then. And as that entity fingered my hard drive, non of the photos of NanHwaSi can now be seen, unfogged or fogged, and many other photos of my travelling about in China, near and far. Just another bleep for those who do not think I lied. Those who think I lied can fuck off. Idiot on the Path

You might well be right. I rather prefer a more optimistic viewpoint. I rather keep on my blinkers and rose tinted glasses and not see the coming meltdown of icecaps and diseases and famine rampant on Earth. And in the meantime, enjoy whatever is left to enjoy and to max my happiness and min aggro to myself and others (unless over the chessboard) Idiot lurching and reeling on the Path. Chinese - jin jou yeo jiu jin jou juoi literal - now I have the wine now I will be drunk in my mind - At this and every instant of time, live and savour all aspects of happiness and of being alive.

I know a thread might have life of its own and different from the original intent. Being a Taoist, I go with the flow, even if it flows 4 ways or more. Maybe I should hive off to a new thread, just a fleeting thought of an Idiot, but I decide to stay on in this thread. On the subject of Genghis Khan. To show how wrong most folks are in thinking bad of him Partial extract from http://www.mongolia-...ghis-khan2.html Human rights and freedoms Genghis Khan did not grant his people the basic human rights and freedoms that we Americans enjoy and Mongolians prize so highly. But he did allow a certain amount of freedom of speech or he never would have figured out who the Wise Men were! He also championed freedom of religion. Although he himself practiced shamanism, he believed that the other religions of the region–Nestorian Christianity, Buddhism, Taoism, and Islam–had merit and should be tolerated. He declared that all religions should be respected and that none should be elevated above the others.23 Pastoral nomadism naturally encourages personal freedom. Even in Manchu times, serfs–nomads tied to a prince (a direct descendant of Genghis Khan) or to a noble–were free once they left the compound of their overlord. Although they reported to their overlord several times a year, they were free to do as they pleased in the countryside. Freedom of religion is the fourth pillar of democracy, a personal freedom that is also a way of respecting differences. A democracy is based on equality of all citizens whether or not they are different from the majority. In fact, pluralism–the acceptance of differences and the ability to allow citizens of all groups to participate in government–is a hallmark of democracy.24 Therefore Genghis Khan’s insistence on religious tolerance is not only a mark of respect for human rights and freedoms but it is also a sign of equality among citizens. Genghis Khan, Father of Mongolian Democracy by Paula L.W. Sabloff aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa And for scholars intent on recorded conversations between Genghis Khan and ChangChung 玄风庆会录 元侍臣(shichen)昭武大将军尚书礼部侍郎移刺楚才奉敕编录。 钦奉皇帝圣议，宣请高道长春真人，岁在巳卯正元后一日，敕朝官刘仲禄斋诏寻访，直至东莱，适符圣意礼迎仙驭，不辞远远而来。逮乎壬午之冬十月既望，皇帝畋于西域雪山之阳，是夕御行在，设庭燎虚前席延长春真人，以问长生之道。真人曰： 夫 道，生天育地，日月星辰、鬼神人物皆从道生。人止知天大，不知道之大也。余生平弃亲出家，唯学此耳。道生天地开辟而生人焉。人之始生也，神光自照，行步如 飞。地生菌自有滋味，不假炊爨，人皆食之，此时尚未火食，其菌皆香，且鼻嗅其香，口嗜其味，渐致身重，神光寻灭，以爱欲之深故也。学道之人，以此之故，世 人爱处不爱，世人住处不住，去声色以清静为娱，屏滋味以恬淡为美，但有执著，不明道德也。眼见乎色，耳听乎声，口嗜乎味，性逐乎情，则散其气。譬如气鞠气 实则健，气散则否。人以气为主，逐物动念则元气散，若气鞠之气散耳。天生二物曰动植，草木之类为植，植而无识，雨露霑濡因得生荣；人物之属为动，动而有 情，无衣无食何以卒岁？必当经营耳。旦夕云为，身口为累故也。夫男阳也，属火；女阴也，属水，唯阴能消阳，水能克火，故学道之人首戒乎色。夫经营衣食则劳 乎思虑，虽散其气而散少；贪婪色欲则耗乎精神，亦散其气，而散之多。道产二仪，轻清者为天，天阳也，属火；重浊者为地，地阴也，属水；人居其中，负阴而抱 阳。故学道之人，知修炼之术，去奢屏欲，固精守神，唯炼乎阳，是致阴消而阳全，则升乎天而为仙，如火之炎上也。其愚迷之徒以酒为浆，以妄为常，恣其情，逐 其欲，耗其精，损其神，是致阳衰而阴盛，则沉于地为鬼，如水之流下也。夫学修真者，如转石上乎高山，愈高愈难，跬步颠沛，前功俱废，以其难为也，举世莫之 为也；背道逐欲者，如掷石下乎峻坡，愈卑而愈易，斯须陨坠一去无回，以其易为也。故举世从之莫或悟也。余前所谓修炼之道，皆常人之事耳。天子之说又异于 是，陛下本天人耳，皇天眷命，假手我家，除残去暴，为元元父母，恭行天罚，如代大匠斵，克艰克难，功成限毕，即升天复位。在世之间，切宜减声色，省耆欲， 得圣体康宁，睿筭遐远耳。庶人一妻尚且损身，况乎天子多畜嫔御宁不深损？陛下宫姬满座，前闻刘仲禄中都等拣选处女以备后宫，窃闻道经云：「不见可欲，使心 不乱」，既见之，戒之则难，愿留意焉。人认身为己，此乃假物，从父母而得之者；神为真己，从道中而得之者，能思虑寤寐者是也。行善进道则升天，为之仙；作 恶背道则入地，为之鬼。夫道产众生，如金为众器，销其像，则返成乎金；人行乎善，则返乎道。人间声色衣食，人见以为娱乐，此非真乐，本为苦耳。世人以妄为 真，以苦为乐，不亦悲哉！殊不知，上天至乐乃真乐耳。余侪以学道之故，弃父母而栖巖穴。同时学道四人：曰丘、曰刘、曰谭、曰马。彼三人功满道成，今已升 化，余辛苦之限未终，日一食一味一盂，恬然自适以待乎时。其富者、贵者济民拯世、积行累功，更为异耳。但能积善行道，胡患不能为仙乎？中国承平日久，上天 屡降经教，劝人为善，大河之北，西川江左悉有之。东汉时干吉受太平经一百五十卷，皆修真治国之方。中国道人诵之、行之，可获福成道。又恒帝永寿元年正月七 日，太上降蜀临邛授天师张道陵南斗北斗经及二十四阶法箓诸经籍千余卷，晋王纂遇太上道君法驾乘空赐经数十卷。元魏时，天师寇谦之居嵩山于太上等处受道经六 十余卷，皆治心修道、祈福禳灾、扫除魑魅、拯疾疫之术，其余经教不可尽言。降经之意，欲使古今帝王臣民皆令行善。经旨太多，请举其要。天地之生人为贵，是 故人身难得如麟之角，万物纷然，如牛之毛。既获难得之身，宜趣修真之路，作善修福，渐臻妙道。上至帝王，降及民庶，尊卑虽异，性命各同耳。帝王悉天人谪降 人间，若行善修福，则升天之时，位逾前职；不行善修福，则反是。天人有功微行薄者，再令下世修福济民，方得高位。昔轩辕氏天命降世，一世为民，再世为臣， 三世为君，济世安民，累功积德，数尽升天而位尊于昔。陛下修行之法无他，当外修阴德，内固精神耳。恤民保众，使天下怀安，则为外行；省欲保神，为乎内行。 人以饮食为本，其清者为之精气，浊者为之便溺。贪欲好色，则丧精耗气，乃成衰惫。陛下宜加珍啬，一宵一为已为深损，而况恣欲者乎？虽不能全戒，但能节欲， 则几于道矣。夫神为子，气为母，气经目为泪，经鼻为脓，经舌为津，经外为汗，经内为血，经骨为髓，经肾为精。气全则生，气亡则死，气盛则壮，气衰则老。常 使气不散，则如子之有母；气散则如子丧父母，何恃何怙？夫神气同体，精髓一源，陛下试一月静寝，必觉精神清爽、筋骨强健。古人云：「服药千朝，不如独臥一 宵。」药为草，精为髓，去髓添草，有何益哉？譬如囊中贮之金，旋去金而添铁，久之金尽，囊虽满，空遗铁耳，服药之理夫何异乎？古人以继嗣之故娶妇而立家， 先圣周公、孔子、孟子各有子，孔子四十而不惑，孟子四十不动心。人生四十已上，气血已衰，故戒之在色也。陛下圣子神孙，枝蔓多广，宜保养戒欲为自计耳。昔 宋上皇本天人也，有神仙林灵素者，挈之神游上天入所居宫题其额曰：神霄不饥不渴、不寒不暑、逍遥无事、快乐自在，欲久居之无复往人间之意，林灵素劝之曰： 陛下天命人世，有天子功限未毕，岂得居此？遂下人间，自后女真国兴，太祖皇帝之将娄失虏，上皇北归，久而老终于上京。由是知，上天之乐何啻万倍人间！又知 因缘未终，岂能遽然而归也？余昔年出家，同道四人，彼三子先已升化，如蝉蜕然，委此凡骨而去，能化身千百无不可者。余辛苦万端未能去世，亦因缘之故也。夫 人之未生，在乎道中，不寒不暑，不饥不渴，心无所思，真为快乐；既生而受形，眼观乎色，耳听乎声，舌了乎味，意虑乎事，万事生矣。古人以心意莫能御也，故 喻心为猿，意为马，其难制可知也。古人有言曰：「易伏猛兽，难降寸心。」乃成道升天之捷径耳。道人修真炼心，一物不思量，如太虚止水水之风息也，静而清， 万物照之灿然悉见，水之风来也动而浊，曷能鉴万物哉！本来真性，静如止水，眼见乎色，耳悦乎声，舌嗜乎味，意著乎事，此数者续续而叠举，若飘风之鼓浪也。 道人治心之初甚难，岁久功深，损之又损，至于无为。道人一身耳，治心犹难，矧夫天子富有四海，日揽万机，治心岂易哉？但能节色欲，减思虑，亦获天祐，况全 戒者邪？昔轩辕皇帝造弧矢、创兵革以威天下，功成之际，请教于仙人广成子以问治身之道，广成子曰：汝无使思虑营营一言足矣。余谓修身之道，贵乎中和，太怒 则伤乎身，太喜则伤乎神，太思虑则伤乎气，此三者于道甚损，宜戒之也。陛下既知神为真己，身是幻躯，凡见色起心，当自思身假神真，自能止念也。人生寿命难 得，且如鸟兽岁岁产子，旋踵夭亡，壮老者鲜，婴童亦如之。是故，二十、三十为之下寿，四十、五十为之中寿，六十、七十为之上寿。陛下春秋已入上寿之期，宜 修德保身以介眉寿。出家学道人恶衣恶食，不积财，恐害身损福故也。在家修道之人，饮食居处珍玩货财亦当依分，不宜过差也。四海之外，普天之下所有国土不啻 亿兆，奇珍异宝比比出之，皆不如中原，天垂经教，治国治身之术为之大备，屡有奇人成道升天耳。山东河北，天下美地，多出良禾美蔬，鱼盐丝玺以给四方之用。 自古得之者为大国，所以历代有国家者唯争此地耳。今已为民有兵火相继，流散未集，宜差知彼中子细事务者能干官规措勾当，与免三年税赋，使军国足丝帛之用， 黔黎获苏息之安，一举而两得之兹，亦安民祈福之一端耳，自天祐之吉，无不利也。余万里之外，一召不远而来，修身养命之方既已先言，治国保民之术何为惜口？ 余前所谓安集山东、河北之事，如差清干官前去依上措画，必当天心；苟授以非才，不徒无益，反为害也。初金国之得天下，以创起东土中原人情尚未谙悉，封刘豫 于东平经略八年，然后取之，此亦开创良策也，愿加意焉。修身养命要妙之道传之尽矣，其治国保民之术微陈，梗概其用之舍之在宸衷之断耳。昔金国世宗皇帝即位 之十年，色欲过节，不胜衰惫，每朝会二人掖行之，自是博访高道，求保养之方，亦尝请余问修真之道，余如前说，自后身体康强，行步如故，凡在位三十年升遐。 余生平学道，心以无思无虑，梦中天意若曰：功行未满，当待时升化耳。幻身假物若逆旅，蜕居耳，何足恋也！真身飞升，可化千百，无施不可，上天千岁或万万， 遇有事奉天命降世投胎就舍而已。 传道毕，上谕之曰： 谆谆道诲，敬闻命矣，斯皆难行之事，然则敢不遵？依仙命勤而行之。传道之语已，命近臣录之简册，朕将亲览。其有玄旨未明者，续当请益焉。 玄风庆会录终 Idiot on the Path

Ah!! A scientificologist in our midst. Nothing but scientifically possible or plausible or that do not exist. But like it or not, the giant tree will fall in the forest even if you or no one there to see and hear it. I find it most amusing that ancient Romans in the time of Julius Caeser felt all that could be invented had been invented by them. And before you laugh at it, Amercian congress and the top scientific minds of America wanted to remove the patent office in early 1900s as they felt all the science and inventions possible was done by then. European scientists of that time thought everything to know of science was known other than a few more decimal places of accuracy other than the quaint properties of pitchblende. I have no idea how the I Ching gave me answers so accurate that my hair stood on end even now when I thought back of it. For that matter, Ouja board told me stuff that should not be known. It was clear to me I could get the knowledge. I feared I just did not have the wisdom to deal with that kind of knowledge. I had a few more experiences other than what I wrote in Fragments of Taiwan, even if those were not of that intensity. I wish you more experiences on the path that you are walking. On my part, I accepted what happened, regardless if they were not possible or not plausible. You then will have interesting choice. To deny what you have seen first hand and pretend that never happened as scientifically that could not have happened. The choice is yours alone. That the science of today is the final word and whatever not possible in that science of today must be ignored and rubbished to your hearts content. Taoistic Idiot