shanlung

How can that be? Taoism was already very old before Confucious even existed as the lust in his father's heart and the gleam in the eye of his mother. Idiotic Taoist

You dont start the trouble. But you have the right to end that trouble. Idiotic Taoist

I thought I should write down some of my experiences of Taijichuan before it faded away. Sadly, taijichuan started to go away from me when Tinkerbell came into my life as seen in my earlier writing here. I was martial arts inclined. Started with Korean TKD and Goju ryu. And later with Shaolin Kungfun passed down indirectly by a Shaolin Monk Sek Koh Sum who came from China to be Abbot in Singapore Suan Lin Tse. That Abbot died before my interest in martial arts was kindled. One of his tudi was my friend. I got to where I could snap the top half with a chop or reversed punch of a brick placed on palm of a hand. With Judo done in school and Western boxing done in my Army days, I had my share of real knocks and bumps. I knew little of taijichuan other than that first encounter very much earlier on and which left a good respect for that. I had not even known of the different schools of taijichuan thinking they were all the same. Which was why I was doing the Sun Jia Taijichuan, largely because of another Chinese MA guy I respected and he asked me to join him. Later on, I learned Sun Jia was from Sun Lutang, a guy who was good in HsingYi and Pakua and later learned taijichuan. Sun jia was a fusion of HsingYi, Pakua and taijichuan. I was at this for a few years following that lady. She was a student of Sun Lu Tang. Then in 1980, Chen Hsiao Wang, the Jangmengpai of Chen Jia came to Singapore with the opening up of China. He hold a demonstration as a kind of announcement of his arrival. During his demo, he asked for 2 volunteers to come up and lock his arms. To my delight and surprise, I saw two of my friends walking to him. One was a 3rd dan Aikido and the other was a no nonsense Shaolin brother. I thought then armlocks by either of them cannot be broken ever. At the word that both were ready, the next moment saw both flung apart as CHW broke their locks with ease. I signed up for CHW classes immediately. The Chen jia Lau Jia, the Jiang, the Chiang, the Dao was learned from him. The first fajing was shown by CHW. But sadly because of that, I was mislead further away from fajing then before. Not the fault of CHW. But he was quite muscular at that time. And the mind , like a monkey, only want to believe what one want to believe. That fajing is physical, and therefore must be from muscular/tendon background. And CHW was muscular. I was unable to discard the lifetime of scientific western perceptions and engineering background I had. Taiji was then interpreted by me in such a light, grouped and generalised until it became 'understandable'. Techniques were classified into vectorial forces and certain groups for effect/response. 'Energy' should no longer be the static stiffness of muscles. The whip-like effects from the legs and abdomenal/hips rotations were equated to the 'chi' talked about. As my 'tui shou'(pushing hands) encounters with others normally do not have me losing, I thought I won and I thought Taiji was within my grasp. My constant reading of the books on Taiji chuan and the TTC had me interpreting them with the perceptions of my experiences. Rationalizations fitted those nuggets into compartments in my mind with me feeling justifiably proud of my 'progress'. In 1990, I found myself in Taipei working on their mass rapid transit system. Early morning will have me in their parks doing my taiji excercises and 'tui shou' with uneven results. There are masters and Masters but I was yet unable to see or know the differences until the day I met Masters. There were two who cannot leave my mind now. One had to walk with a cane and need to be assisted by us to go up the steps leading to the Sun yat sen memorial hall. Another was a slim elderly man,so slim that a strong wind may blow him done, in the Hsingkongyuan(new Taipei park) south of the Taipei railway station. Their weight was about 80-90 lbs. Those two were so skinny that they were almost like walking skeletons. From time to time, I help Master Lee up the steps to SYS memorial hall and hold his arms which almost like broom stick. And when he laid down his cane for the tui shou, my body was compelled to go where it did not want to go. It was also so laughable with the Master at HsingKongYuan. I used to go there on some weekends to do almost free sparring with one and all. I noticed Master Liu watching me a few times. He looked like in late 70s and I thought he was toddling about there in the park for exercises. Until he asked me to try with him. As a matter of face, we all restrained ourselves. I even more with that sweet old dear. He then started to talk with me when we were arms to arms, that he sadly over estimated me. That I was just a lump of fat and flesh with no strength at all. My politeness evaporated and I quickened my steps. He evaporated away from the center of my arms. I was very quick and he remained very slow, but not there. And kept talking to me how disappointed he was in me. And next moment, I was send flying. I came back more determined then ever. He moved like a wraith of smoke and again, I flew. I could not believe what was happening to me, lessons more intense than at SYS memorial hall with that other Master Lee. Again and again and again. My friends with me and watching all that said I was lucky. Master Liu hardly bother to do that with them. I left him with respect amounting to awe, and he asked me to see him again next week end. I never could put the words to what Master Liu did at HKY, until I saw the movie Alien 3 - Resurrection a few years later. If you have seen this movie, you would have seen Ellen Ripley, made with genes crossed over from Alien, playing basketball with a bunch of kick ass Marines. Effortlessly toying with them, and with powers way beyond them. What was special effects happened in real life then, and at subsequent visits to Master Liu at HKY and Master Lee at SYS. Master Liu / Lee was Ripley, and I the muscle bound kick ass flat footed Marine. It finally dawned on me in light of what happened to me that fa jing was not muscles at all. They said I lacked the faith. One cannot get the faith by reading and reading. You had to be thrown and thrown, tossed and throwned until you get it out of your head that muscles were not involved as they had no muscles to begin with. Which was why they told me what jia did not matter once I understood. Master Lee did the Yang jia to warm up before tuishou. Master Liu just do the tuishou with me on every 2nd Sunday or so when I saw him. Master Liu never told me what jia he did. He would ask me if I want to talk or tuishou, and then proceed to tui with me. I loved the mountains of Taiwan too much to be that dedicated to taijichuan with with Masters. Not all came from those 2 Masters. I was doing the Chen jia Chen Fah Ker and the Yang Jia and Yang Jia Suan Tui shou. The Yang Jia Suan Tui Shou came from a Master Tan teaching in a tiny park next to my block in MingSheng Ser Chi. This YJSTS was actually an exercise in Ting Jing. I was so nearly kicked out by Master Tan until I latched on, and stopped doing what I took for granted, anticipating the moves, like in conventional MA. I had to use Tingjing (listening Jing). I cannot put into words the difference. I learned each moves and the transitionings were the most important, and not just the moves. The journey is as much as the destinations. If it is just the move, then there must be just ONE form, not the multiple of forms. From the TingJing, you get the Dong Jing (understanding Jing). That it was the Tingjing that slipped the Masters out of my hand. That even without Fa Jing, Ting Jing was more than enough to take care of attacks to lead that attack elsewhere. I went back to Taiwan again after my initial contract was over just to do taichichuan. I was staying in Al Amigo guest house, a cheap hostel with flat rooftop that I shared with buskers, English teachers, and other folks I was doing about 6-7 hours of tajijichuan, 4 hours on my own and 2 with my Masters. Doing the forms over and over and over and over again. Doing that with the Yi and alignment, to point I need not hold that in my mind. Taiwan is a place where it rained much of the time. One period of extensive rain lead to a good breakthrough in taijichuan for me. I was in the staircase landing looking at the roof wondering if the rain would stop. In the tight space of the staircase landing, I thought I would do my form. You known the space required to do the Yang Jia long form and Chen Jia Chen Fah Ker form. With stepping back, and intermediate stepping, I found I could do those forms in constrained space, and with the feeling of doing it at regular wide space. I felt constrained space was better in that fights might well happened in constrained space. Later on, I discussed this with my Masters and showed them what I did within the space of 4 flagstones. They were happy with what I had done. Those were the days before the Internet. I do think the Internet is not conducive to good Martial Arts, in that more time is wasted writing and reading instead of the doing. There were obviously local students with my Masters, Taiwanese who were born into the Chinese language and many were good in Wen Yen Wen too. With their mastery of Chinese, they were way behind me in Tuishou. They did not spend as many hours as I did in the forms, in getting the alignment right and not thinking of the chi as I used to kid myself in the past. With chi here and chi there and chi everywhere which was nothing but figment of imagination. After all, by the time you think of the chi, the fight can be over, so why bother to think of the chi when it is just there if you only have the faith. My Masters showed time and time again no muscles were ever needed for the chi. They barely had enough muscles to stand upright. I also found if Master Liu was on a good day, his fajing was direct and simple. When I was send back, it was a simple fajing. If he was feeling wicked with me, he twist his jing when he was fahing the jing. I would get twisted , and saved from a tumbling fall because he would catch me before I fall. In the Al Amigo hostel, now and then we would have a party up the roof of the 7 floor apartment at Chilin road. Tables were brought up with beers and cakes. I had been quite conspicuous there, with my taiji practices. Another guy also living there had been asking me to have a match which I had been declining. He told me he was doing Shoto Kan for about 12 years, and in Taipei to learn Hung Chuan. Just arm length from me, he threw a series of punches to show how fast he punched. In my mind, I was glad I never accepted his earlier challenges as he was lightning fast. He then execute another series of punches. I knew one was heading for my jaw with intent to hurt. That split second , time slowed enough for me to have turn my body sinking down slightly with my right arm into a danpian leading his fist just out from my jaw. His withdrawal of fist was then lead by me into a haidijen. I was conscious we were on the roof top with low parapet walls, surround by people having a good time. Fajing would fly him to the tables or to people, or over the parapet wall down to the street 7 floors below. I also wanted to defuse that situation as troubles was the last thing on my mind as that would get me kicked out of Taiwan forever. With scarsely a thought, I pour fajing into my haidijen and the image of his body through the rood slab into the center of the Earth. And felt his body rammed vertically down and his legs were wobbly. I was so close that I supported him so he could not fall down. I never thought fajing could be done downwards. All un-premeditated. All with wuwei, or as tze run as could be. All in line with the Tao. I spoke quietly in his ears that we should stop or folks around us be frightened and spoil the party. He agreed very readily to my nice suggestion. We both had a beer and a quiet laugh. His friends around us had not a clue. We remained friends and he did not call on me again for any more demonstrations. My sojourn into full time taijichuan ended when I was recalled back into service. I had a good pay check and stayed in a good apartment. But I could not spend more than 90 minutes on taijichuan daily just to tick over. Which I did regardless of the country I was in. Until Tinkerbell came into my life. And taijichuan went out as a result as I could not even find that 90 minutes daily. But not entirely. But that’s another story. Idiotic Taoist

Ha ha ha ha! Not that I think what you said will end this debate. I cannot call even the heated words here to be arguments, but then, that is because it is me. Might take a break to have a sniff and a sip of good Wulung tea. Idiotic Taoist

ha ha ha! Ditto Ditto Ditto Ditto Idiotic Taoist

I rather go on a simpler approach. If that entity, sentient or otherwise,from which ever part of the world or from far far away, think that he/she is a Taoist, then he/she is a Taoist regardless of his/her upbringing. And if he/she practise serenity and be one with the Chi/ Earth, even if he/she has not declare he/she is a Taoist, he/she nonetheless, is a Taoist. Background is incidental to whatever you are now. After all, I started as a Christian, the captive audience of a Methodist missionary school. http://shanlung.livejournal.com/111670.html Taoistic Idiot

It will be a very rare person, American or Chinese or Galatical Taoist, or not Taoist, to be able to get all the ducks lined up before the going on the Path. And at the end, it will not matter. The first step is but the first step on a journey, where perhaps the journey might be as important , if not more important then the destination. I was so sure of everything when I was younger. Maybe years bring greater stupidity to me, that I cannot be sure of anything anymore. Those that will do genocide will do that with whatever tools at hand. Guns played a minor role as against the machete and sticks and stones in Rwanda. Even if that man behind E=MC2 also wrote to the American Pres to work on the A bomb, can he be totally be blamed for what dropped from Bockscar and Enola Gay? Wuwei can be so good to prevent paralysis of the mind. Just go and do what you think is good. It can be put to good, and can be put to evil. That can be disconnected with whatever true wuwei will lead you to do. Idiotic Taoist

I am not even sure by focusing that their analysis get better even if they want to innuedo that is the case. Let us not talk of Tao and Zen. Even in the much more simple modern day task of radiologists analysis and focusing on the topic, gorillas have been totally missed. aka Why do radiologists miss dancing gorillas?http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-21466529 Let us not pride ourself too much that our minds are accustomed to facts and data, observation and measurements. Let us not be too fixated on focusing and analysing in trying to gain understanding of the Tao and Zen, a vastly more complex task. We all might not see the forest for the trees, and missed gangs of dancing gorillas. And not know the Tao and Zen even if they are preceded by brass bands and cheer leaders dancing away in front. Idiotic Taoist

I cannot suggest strong enough that you, and all others with a deep interest in Taoism and Eastern philosophy/thoughts should have all the books of John Blofeld. John was an incredible man who seemed destined to be the main bridge from East to West. He travelled about in China, learned the language and had the mindset to get deep into Taoism. He went to many Taoist temples and monasteries and met with incredible Taoist MASTERS whose explanations still shined over the years with clarity that could not be matched. You have seen the earlier excerpt I made from John Blofeld, “The Secret & Sublime: Taoist Mysteries & Magic” To answer your question (and maybe that from Flowing Hands) here is another. I could not better what was in his book , so another extract for you to understand what you missed in not having Blofeld books in your hands. From an old Taoist master in his dialogue with Blofeld. “The Tao is to be found in inner stillness. It reveals itself as One – timeless, formless, all pervading. In it all creatures and objects have their being. The same may be said of your goldfish and the water in which they swim, but the likeness is only superficial. One could take a fish out of the water and put it back; but the separateness of creatures and objects either from one another or from the Tao is illusory. Apart from the totality, which is the Tao, they have no being. The Tao and the myriad objects are not two! Unlike water which rises from the lake as vapour and flows back to it in streams, the Tao’s creations do not rise from it, nor do they return to it, they and the Tao having never at any time been apart. They are the Tao. This faculty of being one and many simultaneously is a mystery that can be apprehended but not explained.” John Blofeld might go on to answer questions that you have not even thought of asking as yet. Taoistic Idiot

Allow me to have a split personality and being an Optimist and a Realist, and not be both at the same time. Taoistic Idiot

Neither do I preach or teach. How can I , the perpetual student dare to do that? The best I can do is to ask "Is the Emperor nekkid?" To what Thinker pondered over, The intent of my statement was that it's obvious that genocide motivated by sadism is disallowed by Daoism, and that a person who engaged in such an act is obviously not a practicing Daoist. What about simple genocide, done without malice. One of the greatest instrument of genocide is the gun, machine gun or Gatling gun. And artillery and bombs. That all came about from the invention of gunpowder. Which very likely was stumbled upon by a Taoist in China. Perhaps a Taoist that loved humanity and nature and might even be a Vegan as well. But he invented the gunpowder, done without malice and done with joy for living, perhaps to make beautiful fireworks , or to chase away evil spirits. Should that Taoist go down in history for infamy? , As without him there be no gunpowder and no guns, and no slaughter of hundreds of millions, worse then all genocides combined together. Of course there will also be the samurai sword, tempering process probably invented by a Taoist with love and no malice in his heart. I do wish life can be that easy and answer so clear. I leave that to my betters who know those easy and clear answers to preach and to teach. Idiotic Taoist

In Sept last year I wrote here Tao ke Tao, and where is Godhttp://thetaobums.com/topic/24825-tao-ke-tao-and-where-is-god/#entry359700 My take from my very simple mind as to this question of God. Even if you chose to laugh at my idiocy, which I freely admit in the first place. I extracted what I wrote above into below. aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa Tao ke Tao , fei chang Tao Ming ke Ming, fei chang Ming The Tao that you think is the Tao, is not the Tao The Name that you think is the Name, is not the Name I think my first reading of Tao Te Ching was when I was 12 or 13 years old. It did not took long for me to decide what I was reading was so laughable and corny. I went back to read TTC again and again, and yet again , and again. The TTC grew from a very thin pamphlet into volume thicker than telephone directory. That simple thin pamphlet I recalled reading was the best. No interpretations and conjured stories to bury what LaoTzu wrote that can then be copywrited. And the one was was corny was that little boy of 12. How many of us read and re read the TTC in all its different versions from the thin to the thick? And read the first couple of sentences, threw them aside and kept digging in the left over bath waters? And kept asking what is the Tao. Even to castigate Chuangtzu for not being a real Taoist as his writings never contained and invoke Tao. For all I know, LaoTzu was only a Pretender as he certaining talked of the Tao , even if his first couple of sentences denied everything he wrote subsequently. When the Tao is beyond immeasurable and beyond infinite, even to think of the Tao and its concept, you cannot but defined the Tao, the Undefinable Tao , within the concept of what you think is the Tao. Likewise, the Name that you try to give to that Name. Imprisoned the real Name into the representation you made in your mind of that Name. The Name so vast and primordial all squeezed into a tiny container of the Name? Perhaps that came from the great East and West divide. The West, be it Chrisitianity, Judaism or Islam, demanded the concept of God. And the East? Godless or the refusal to accept the concept of God. But I have so say Judaism tried to limit the damage by evoking unpronouncable JHWH. Which failed as that became Jehovah, and yet another name. But again, if God is that infinite and everywhere, by giving the thought of God, are people then differentiating anything outside their thought of what God is is then not God? Is God that limited ? That God must exist only within that name, or concept, of GOD? Or the limitation came from the very thinking of the concept God. So those that want to talk of God, tell me then, where is your God. And why do you wish to limit your God by talking of Him , and of his Name. My first posting into here came as a hit on a very old webpage I did about 10 years ago, and based on earlier writings I did on BBS before the Internet. I reproduce that here, what was said by Taoist Master Tseng Lao Weng. http://www.shanlung....taonirvana.html aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa ENLIGHTENMENT From: khamba2 - Date: Wed, Jun 2 1999 12:00 am Groups: alt.philosophy.taoism Paul Humphries <[email protected]> wrote: >Hi! >I feel a bit skeptical about enlightenment at the moment, so wish to ask >some questions to anyone who has any ideas.. >When a person reaches the state of pure, total enlightment and absolute >truth, what does this mean? Is it that they are now learning openly to >the greatest of their potential? What sort of knowledge of reality >emerges? What abilities does this give the person? How many truely >enlightened masters exist, do you think? How do they live? Would they >have any preferences in taste in music? >Cheers! Sorry that I am answering with this is an old letter. I do hope the words of Taoist Master Tseng Lao Weng can answer a bit of your question even if he did not mention his preferences for music be it classical, hard rock or heavy metal. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------­---- I have mourned that many of my books stayed back in my home town while I was wandering ,working and staying elsewhere. But a selection of John Blofeld's books followed me. I thought I quote one of my favorite portion from his book 'Taoism, The Secret and Sublime' which may help others understand and decide for themselves if Taoism is a philosophy or a religion. I myself, never did feel that either path is important. He was talking to this Taoist Master Tseng Lao Weng. (now using also his format and capitalizations..) -------------------------------------------------------- Having heard from me of Sir Edwin Arnold's lovely expression for entering Nirvana, 'the dew-drop slips into the shining sea', he exclaimed with delight, but added: 'And yet it does not capture the whole. Since the Tao is all and nothing lies outside it, since its multiplicity and unity are identical, when a finite being sheds the illusion of separate existence, he is not lost in the Tao. By casting off his imaginary limitations, he becomes immeasurable. Plunge the finite into the infinite and, though only one remains, the finite, far from being diminished, takes on the stature of infinity. Such perception will bring you face to face with the true secret cherished by all the accomplished sages. The mind of one who returns to the Source thereby BECOMES the Source. Your own mind is DESTINED TO BECOME THE UNIVERSE ITSELF!' The Taoistic Idiot

And Yoda in a galaxy far far away is a Galactic Taoist. Taoistic Idiot

I was with Siemens building the MRT in Guangzhou in 1995 The Germans were so nice to me taking me out to enjoy their delicacies when I periodically visitted them in Erlangen and Germany. When they came to Guangzhou, I had to take them out for dinners , especially as I was the only Expat who could speak Chinese and Cantonese. From puerile curiosity, the Germans will asked for the dog stew. The first time I ordered that, I took only a very tiny piece. Every other week, a new batch of Germans would come. Prompted by earlier batches of Germans, they new Germans would order dog stew again, and each time, I took a bigger piece, and more pieces. Think of the most delicious meat, the most tender meat, the most fragrant of meat. That would be the dog stew in Guangzhou. One sight that never would leave my mind was the sight of a local chinese seating at the nearby table with a chihuahua on his lap, and both of them enjoying the dog stew. In the end, even when Germans were not in town, I ordered that stew for my own. In Guangzhou, and Taiwan, you only order the dog stew in winter. Then the day came when I was working and living in South Korea on their High Speed Train. I heard the Koreans also ate dog. I asked local Koreans to take me to their doggie restaurant. I was so shocked they agreed to do that next week as that was in August and in their summer. The Koreans replied to me that yes, they know of the ying and the yang of food, and dog is very yang and heaty. I told them in China, dog would only be taken in winter as the heat was required to combat the cold. The Koreans told me they never would eat dog in winter. Dog only could be eaten in summer in Korea as they need the heat of the dog to combat the heat of the summer. Same Ying and Yang. Only very different in the execution. I went with them once and only once for the dog. Koreans pride themselves on purity and the dog was served raw. I got drunk on the liquor that I used to wash that dog down and to take the taste away. There were other very gruesome aspect that I do not care to write about as I do not want to conjure up those memories. Idiotic Taoist.

Winter is a very cold time to visit China. Might be better now, but in the 1995 to 1999 when I was roaming about in China from my base in Hongkong, hotel rooms were about 25-45 RMB. Some places even cheaper in places where 'gui bu par shang lai, neiou bu sheng dan ' (turtle do not climb up and birds do not lay eggs)No central heating of course, unless you consider hot water in thermos flask as heating. Totally different culture where often I was the only tourist in town. I did not even look like a tourist as I dressed like a local Chinese, going about with my travelling companion, a mainland Chinese I engaged to help me read Chinese. The sad part was that she was brought up in the JianTiTse, or simplified Chinese and the Fang Ti Tse (classical full chinese) was used to write the stone steles. I felt so embarrased and sorry for her that Japanese tourists alongside of us could read the classical FangTiTse chinese better than her. I could read less well then the Japanese, but even I could read the old steles better than her. I considered the JianTiTse to be Chinese with the heart ripped out, a sad bastardised pidgin form of Chinese, perhaps done to separate Chinese in Mainland China from their roots, largely written in FanTiTse used in ancient books and steles, and in Taiwan and Hongkong, and by Chinese not under the direct rule of Beijing. I do not have the photos I taken of Emei Shan , Wudang Shan and many other parts of China. The photos I most regret no longer having are the photos taken in ChingCheng Shan. I went to CCS at a time when no tourists went there. Taoist monks were at every nook and corner. As said, those jpgs in my hard disk died after a ghostly hand squeezed the life out of it. http://shanlung.livejournal.com/111670.html I told myself then to be back at CCS again just for CCS. But never got to do that before I was called back into the world. Phi92, Chidragon , that I called the HotAirWorm, cannot ask me anything as I chucked him into my ignore bin. I rather talk with you and folks like you then with HAW. I found his pretended knowledge of Chinese is nauseating. Especially his acting as if he knew taijichuan on the basis he could read chinese. I know there are folks with far better command of Chinese than me. Those are the people who are very well versed in Wen Yen Wen, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_Chinese the pure poetic classical form of Chinese as against the run of the mill folks like me in Bai Hwa Wen http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Written_vernacular_Chinese You can always recognised folks very good in Wen Yen Wen. I have so many friends very good in Wen Yen Wen. The Chinese used by them are just too beautiful. But the English that they write are just horrible, convulated and atrocious. HAW English is very much like yours and mine. Now, just think of the knowledge and power of Wang Chong Yang of the Quanzhen school. Did his reknowned 7 disciples remained in that school? Each of them set up a different school. Ma Yu (馬鈺): Yuxian lineage (Meeting the Immortals, 遇仙派) Tan Chuduan (譚處端): Nanwu lineage (Southern Void, 南无派) Liu Chuxuan (劉處玄): Suishan lineage (Mount Sui, 随山派) Qiu Chuji (丘處機): Longmen lineage (Dragon Gate Taoism, 龙门派) Wang Chuyi (王處一): Yushan lineage (Mount Yu, 崳山派) Hao Datong (郝大通): Huashan lineage (Mount Hua, 华山派) Sun Bu'er (孫不二): Qingjing lineage (Purity and Tranquility Sect, 清静派) Liu found his final path to Immortality in a brothel. Funded by picking up stones and turning them into gold. Another found his final path to Immortality in digging caves in mountain for meditating Taoist hermits. Yet another found it by ferrying folks across river on his back. Qiu who impressed Genghis Khan so much was said to be the weakest and the least empowered of the 7. If Wang had 100 disciples, those disciples might well have 101 schools. And said so well , It is easier to find Dao in what you know. Zhuangzi did not portray seekers who traveled to Tibet to retrieve Laozi's teachings; it was Butcher Ding in the basement, and the wheelwright, who found Dao in the "practice" of their work. It will be a very pathetic Tao if there is one and only one way to go to the Tao. It will be a very pathetic Tao if the Tao is found only in some far mountains or valley in China. Where the Tao is everywhere, show me a place where the Tao cannot be found. Idiot on the Path

I wonder if the 209 Cardinals in the coming Conclave be able to bring their laptops or Iphones in with them to google away at the background of those that they want to vote for, if Peter or Rome exist in their genealogy, on in their order. Or perhaps they are doing that now as we talk about it. This is fascinating. After the fiasco of Mayan end of the Universe, we have other things to look towards. Idiotic Taoist

If folks want to think of Wuwei and Ziran, focus then on the difference between those 2. I am plagiarising on what I wrote earlier in this forum. One is on one side of a Mobius strip and the other on the other side of the same Mobius strip. Idiotic Taoist

Ha ha ha! Why am I not surprised at above? I have seen you with your invitation for tea in other threads, normally at the point in which a break for tea will be better. Bamboo utensils! Washing of the tea pot! And of course! the sniffer cups! I bet you might even have a small charcoal burning stove and cast iron kettle to boil water. I am sure you must have a small bonsai, or even a few pieces of Liuli Gongfang to admire while appreciating tea. In their better days, my LiuLi Gongfang was put to that use. After all, they are beautiful work of art seen in major museum such as the Palace Museum of Taipei, China, Japan and all over the world. Only in the house of a peasant will you see the Liuli holding down papers for birdies to poop on when I wrote my piece confessing to be a peasant. A fate worse then death for those Liuli pieces. Maybe I should send my Liuli pieces to you. Since you like tea, you will like the photos of the Mucha hills south of Taipeh. If folks wonder what good are the hills of Mucha, they have the biggest collection of tea houses in the world. I hope one fine day, you will be there. You might have thought you died and gone to Paradise. You might be right I could not take photos of all those signs above. But that should give you an idea what to expect when you get there. Seeker of Truth, Taoism was already old when that guy got off the back of his ox to pen a few words down for the keeper of the pass. He was not the founder of Taoism. Maybe better said is that Taoism found him. Phi92, I was wrong when I said there might be no answers to your question. Looks like there are plenty of answers. Unlike the West (and religious extremist be they in Eat or West, North or South) where the rule is that there must be only one rule and that only they can set the rule, in Taoism if there are a hundred guys, they will come with a hundred and 1 ways to practise Taoism. Taoistic Idiot

How can you say about quality of tea when you do not have the sniffer bowls above the tea cup. Good tea must be appreciated together with the aroma, and sniffer bowls must be present for that. Unless your tea is meant for peasant. In which case I qualify cum laude. I even happily wrote about my Being a peasanthttp://shanlung.livejournal.com/135250.html Idiotic Taoist.

I think I was a Taoist from the day I was born except I was too much of a fool to know that. It was not until the day I met a Taoist Immortal on a rain swept and wind swept road of the tail end of a typhoon in Northern Taiwan. I wrote of that in Fragments of earlier memories of Taiwanhttp://shanlung.livejournal.com/111670.html You read above and you decide for yourself what that entity was. I wrote that time for a different audience, who kept birds and/or cats. How to explain to them what is Taoism? I could not even want to try to explain the unexplainable as to what Taoism was to them. I foist off to them instead. " For those who wondered just what is Taoism, Taoism is the Zen in Zen Buddism." Surprisingly, they all accepted that and not a question was raised as to what was Taoism You seen me used that phrase above recently here again. Now you know where that came from. Idiotic Taoist

Phi92, It is good to ask the question that you asked. But just because a question is asked, that might not meant there can be an answer. In some cases, it is better that there be no answer, which might perhaps be that very answer. Idiotic Taoist

I find it sad the fray ended just as I visited that thread. Perhaps I brought bad karma vapours with me and snuffed the life out of that thread. Maybe for the better. I was going to ask if Neo Taoism, Born Again Taoism, Evangelical Taoism and the likes be granted their own sub forums and threads. Sadly my question died before I could even ask. I applaud your study of the classical form of TTC. I did study, or at least I attempted study of that a couple decades earlier. A saying struck me since then. "The man of intellect learns something every day. The man of Tao unlearns something every day until he gets back to non-doing". Which is right, and which is wrong? I do not know. And cat, Phil92, I find it difficult to say what is NOT Taoist practise. Eg the Zen in Zen Buddhism is Taoism. Can Zen practitioners be discounted because they do not do Taoism but Zen? So to me, flower arrangement, drinking of tea (and coffee) can also be a form of Taoism. Heck for that matter, chopping off of head and limbs is also Taoism when done and written by Mushahi in his 5 RIngs A few months ago, there was even a movement here to denounce ChuangTse and remove him from Taoism because in his translated books, not a single mention was made of the Tao, and therefore he had nothing to do with Taoism. When we consider an Immortal of Taoism, Liu Chang Sheng gained his final liberation by going and staying in a brothel, who are we to try to define the practise of the Tao? Are folks in little villages in China worshipping the local dieties in tradition of 1000 years old less of a Taoist than an self styled intellectual claiming to worship the Great Emptiness that he defined as the Tao notwithstanding Tao cannot be defined? And making himself a self styled Fung Shui Master a greater Taoist charging $888 for a consultation? I was dragged kicking and screaming to one such Fung Shui Convention just a week ago. I need not have to pay that $888. But a promise was exacted from me not ask any question and to keep my mouth shut unless I was quaffing canapes served there with the champagne. I am so easily bribed that I am ashamed of myself. Are we that much better and qualified to decide? And to exclude? I am unqualified to know and unqualified to decide. You all will do the deciding. Taoistic Idiot Idiot on the Path

I find it a little bit sad. The two main characters of this interesting thread found no disharmony with each other reasoning and carried out with respect to each other. I was hoping those two shine light on a facet of the Tao, part of the elephant we blind people are feeling about trying to understand the whole from the bits we glimpse. But again, what I wish for in life and what I get can be so different. Sadly, that is the reality. Idiotic Taoist

Hi folks, I have to say hi to you all. In the past, before the days of Internet, I was in BBS and alt dot whatever talking inane stuff on the Tao and what was perceived of the Tao. I signed off as "Idiotic Taoist" or "Taoistic Idiot" or "Idiot on the Path" in those days. Just a while ago, I was suprised by a hit on an obscure part of my webpages. That was on http://www.shanlung....taonirvana.html That was on an equiry on Google.GR on "tseng lao weng". I followed that hit back to that google search and found your site listed as one of those that talked on " tseng lao weng" That was why I came into here, looked around a bit and thought I should at least say Hi to you folks here following that Path or even wondering of that Path or just talking and pondering on that Path. As to what my webpage is about, if you do not know of me before and you are into birds or into cats, you might like to click and find out. http://www.shanlung.com/index.html I think you will be very surprised. I cannot add to your knowledge or detract from your confusion on the Path. I know I probably do not know more than a fraction of 1 percent of all that is to know of the Path. A long time back, I decided I do not know what is right, and hence what is wrong for that matter. Guidance from me will be taken at your own risk. There are definately folks who know, and be happy to guide you to what they know or what they think they know. I am only an Idiot in comparision to all of them. Which is why then in the past, and now, and into the future. I signed off as The Idiotic Taoist

It was some time since I drop by here. And fearing to offend others who might not have known me, and my signature, I thought I kick this up. That others might know how foolish I am, and indeed, I am the Idiot here. The Idiotic Taoist