yiming

yiming....

混沌 means: obscurity; dimness; indistinctness; vagueness.

 

The purpose of having them on his chest, he wants people to know that he is obscure.

You are a nice guy, Sifu Chi. I find it difficult to reconcile this human character, from a brash culture, with an affinity for obscurity.

Dictionary meaning of 混 is reckless and 沌 is confusion. And Google translated 混沌 as chaos.

This crazy-maker, more likely wants to project that he is "Chaos". He is arrested for attempted robbery after his buddy was shot in the heart by a 92 year-old WW 2 veteran in Kentucky.

Sifu Chi, what do the characters on his chest say?

Assuming that story to be true, I don't think God chose your parents to give birth to his son. Your level of delusion seems to be coming out of the woodwork.

Ok, I take this to mean that you regard Christianity as a load of bull even though you endorse Flowing Hands' shaman magic.

So you fashion yourself an expert on the Dao De Jing and your not even familiar with the basic principle of Balance, and how it fills the holes and levels the mounds, favours the humble and humiliates the proud.

Look, there is no expert on the Tao Te Ching as long as we all accept the Chapter 1 decree that the Tao that can be spoken is not the Eternal Tao. I was merely pointing out that your depiction of the Eternal Tao as a levelling instrument is an attempt to use a revered Chinese classic to give credence to the western political value of equality. West is west and East is east. Stop trying to equate the two.

Perhaps if your knowledge about it went past memorizing one chapter because you like the way it sounds (as you said in "learning Chinese forum") you would know how fundamental a principle this is to the Dao De Jing. You have much to learn, and it seems your misplaced pride will have to be leveled before that happens.

Knowledge about the Tao? I have none because it is unknowable. Which part of Chapter 14 do you not understand? My time is better spent swinging myself 180 degrees on my swivel chair to watch the garden as I recite Chapter 14.

WOW! You really don't know ANYTHING ! You really think the Jewish people were only ones who brought the issue of racism to the West? Everyone from the Native, to the Irish, to the Italians, the Polish, the Hungarian, the African, AND the Chinese and the Japanese fought against the mindless hatred of racism. And this struggle goes back to ancient history all around the world where countries invaded other countries, justifying their carnage on a false myth of racial superiority. This includes even the English telling themselves that they were racial superior to the Irish and Scottish.

People are fighting all the time. You can choose to see it as racism and morally demonize the conflict that way. Lions have been hunting wildebeest, and if the latter thought like you, all lions would bear the stamp of the swastika. Don't you understand Chapter 2?

Thank you for making it even more obvious though that you really do not belong on this forum where we have all different races. You'd better run before we mix in with your family heritage!

China is a land of many races but they are all Chinese including white-skinned, blue-eyed ones in her western regions. Cultural purity is what holds the Chinese together. If you are not Chinese like me - culturally speaking - then you are a tourist. Your study of the Tao Te Ching would be like a visit to the Great Wall of China. We, Chinese, ARE the Great Wall. We ARE the Tao Te Ching. Now, that is grokking.

No suffering based on racism in China? You probably better try to ask yourself this question at least one more time. The fact that you are not immediately aware of this is a pitiful reflection of how much you know about your own country, its various people and their struggles today and throughout history.

Are you not being a mite self-righteous here? You would insist on judging China based on your western moral yardstick. The Chinese have suffered mightily for far longer than any nation but we don't moan about it crying foul this and foul that. The root of human suffering is unknown. Calling it racism is scapegoating to fuel more conflict.

Yeah, I'll trust somebody's opinion on that who has at least read the text maybe... Thanks....

 

What a joke. Dude, get out of here. The only purpose you would serve to hang around is amuse everyone by the depth of your ignorance. Hearing you is like watching National Geographic - looking at animals that you almost forgot existed, and seeing how they act in real life. However, this is not the place for you to run your crap all over the place. If you have any benefit to gain from this forum, it is certainly not going to be done any more by showing us how ignorant you are. This has already been done more than adequately.

You feel better now? Venting is good to maintain Chi balance.

I prefer using the crapper.

I would like to point out that this personal confrontation is only distracting from the essence of the thread and the value of discussing this Chapter of the Tao Te Ching.

 

(Yes, I know that I have been guilty of the same so I am not really being a hypocrate when I mention this.)

 

(Personal conflicts should remain personal, I. e., via PM.)

 

Anyhow, continue the dispute if y'all feel it will lead to better understanding.

It is not personal, at least not on my part. If this sounds like a quarrel, it is because of the passion aroused by the debate. I am all for the freedom of expression and beg your indulgence. So, please bear with us in this free-for-all venting of views and don't call in the cops. No one is getting hurt here and there is so much to learn about Harmony's grasp of the Tao Te Ching.

Note this discussion. The Dao is a leveling force. You are being leveled as you need to be put in your place. Coming about here like you are in any position to call someone on their actions. Look at your actions and how you speak to people? How do you fashion yourself worthy to judge anybody here? You have proven yourself to have the maturity of a piglet. Perhaps you ought not play your little "I'm smarter and cleverer" game until you learn how to communicate with human beings on an equal level rather than just as a disruptive little pig chasing after his favourite dish of shit and acting like he's doing someone a service.

 

As the mods have failed to call you on your consistent racism and trolling, I am calling you out for what you are and have proven yourself to be over and over again. If you wish to continue posting on this forum, you'd probably be best to start a new user name.. though judging by the lack of control you have over yourself, your communication strategy will likely result in that account being deleted soon as well.

 

Maybe next time you'll find a better way to judge yourself against others than the accident at birth which ended up with you being born to a random pair of strangers....

So, you reckon Mary and Joseph were a random pair of strangers? I'll bet you do based on your doctrine of a levelling Tao, something only a Marxist socialist could dream up. Equality is a western political sentiment. It has no place in Chinese philosophy which is not philosophy in the western sense.

The Tao Te Ching predates western civilization. So, how is a fella like you going to jump out of your cultural brainwash to grok something that is eternally removed from you? A Chinaman doesn't have your handicap and to point that out is not being racist. Racism is another western hang-up implanted in the western psyche by Jewish reaction to anti-semitism. Here again, the Chinese is not burdened by this emotional baggage.

What you will take away, after all your study, is a monster that bears no relationship to the Tao Te Ching. It will be your own little baby that look just like you because it is you who fathered it, not Lao Tze.

No, I mean "grokking". It is not, originally, an English word.

 

Read for yourself.

Definition of Grok

Ok, since this word has been used, I guess it counts. I stand corrected.

I had a 感覺 that you couldn't have made - what I thought - such a glaring mistake.

意思 is yi si = meaning

通過 thoong kor = through

感覺 ghum ghok = reflect idea feeling

意會 yi wui = comprehension by intuition

Yes, "ghum hok" does mean feeling.

Grokking 的意思是：通過感覺意會

Something has to be comprehended through the intuitive senses of the mind but cannot be expressed in words.

Grokking is not an English word. Do you mean "groping"?

Anyway, I had fun figuring out the Chinese characters in Cantonese.

意思 is yi si = meaning

通過 thoong kor

感覺 ghum ghok = reflect idea

意會 yi wui =

Just that one act of turning the chair, totally without dollar value, has brought me untold pleasures, looking at the plants, flowers, butterflies, birds, etc. A value beyond valuing.

What a simple request to supply an answer to.

 

Useful: In my livingroom I have three recliner chairs. The room has one picture window. Outside the window one can see two-thirds of my gardens. The chair I normally sit in has been turned 180 degrees so that when I sit in it I am looking directly out the window instead of into the livingroom.

 

Just that one act of turning the chair, totally without dollar value, has brought me untold pleasures, looking at the plants, flowers, butterflies, birds, etc. A value beyond valuing.

Your response to my buzzing around is a lot more Tao-like than Harmonious Emptiness's.

May untold pleasures be with you for ten thousand years.

 

If we manage to find even a few missed meanings in this text (the most translated of any book in the world) this would be of great value to more than just ourselves. So if you don't mind us continuing without you buzzing around the topics like a shit seeking housefly, we have more important questions to look into than how to get you off the page. Thanks!!!

Shit seeking housefly. I like that. You are right about the shit-seeking but I never thought of myself as a housefly.

fu2 = not is modern chinese...

fu2 in daodejing is to be explained in context.

kangxi-dictionary lists different contexts...

shuowenjiezi explains the meaning in the time it was written....

We have to be conscious that the authors used the terms in their specific way and in dependence of context..

One has to remember the pictogram:

two trunks forced together by a rope.

---

http://www.zdic.net/...dicBCZdic97.htm

fú 弗 not, negative

---

 

Two trunks forced together by a rope. I really like that imagery.

As for the rest of your explanation in Chinese, it's way beyond my level of comprehension.

Thanks anyway. I appreciate your contribution and will store it away for further study.

I think this chapter was telling us that even though Tao is invisible but Tao is always around us. By grokking its presence and study its nature, so we'll have some principles to follow.

Sifu Chi, pardon me for asking. "grokking" is not an English word. What does it mean? I first noticed your use of this word when we were studying Chapter 1.

I'll let the mods decide that. I have already reported your posting here.

I thought you are a moderator. You certainly behave like one trying to control the discussion and pushing me around.

If you want to discuss a chapter, feel free.. otherwise, you should stay to a thread you have something to contribute to. THanks.

Let the mods decide. If they want to throw me out, that's fine. You mind your own business.

Did you know about the blind who see colors when hearing music...

I don't. You do? Unless you are blind and speaking from direct experience, you are indulging in promoting shaman nonsense.

I once asked a guy who was born blind if he was living in a state of darkness. He mulled on my question and replied, "I don't know what is darkness because I have never seen light."

What that blind guy said stunned me. No duality. Simple as that. But I don't think you can grasp this.

besides the three particular examples denote the same idea using three different language forms... probably intentionally done in hopes of one of them getting through and inducing the realization of the original idea...

And what is that original idea?

I don't think he gets any money from it... and no to the latter.

Well, you think wrong. All Shamans get money especially those who use PayPal.

I have to hand it to Flowing Hands though. He must be the first white man getting into this nonsense.

Please stick to the study aspect of the chapters and don't just troll. Thanks.

I am not trolling. You guys are - trolling for superstitious fellow travellers in the guise of studying the Tao Te Ching.

I am trying to stick to the subject which is inquiry into the crap that life has become. The Tao Te Ching is supposed to be a book of wisdom. Apart from the "you are clever and I am smart" ego-massaging exercise, show me one scrap of wisdom that you fellas have uncovered in your study.

For a text as profound as the Dao De Jing, I think these things are important. Like with the Yi Jing, a single word can point someone in the right direction if they are reading it from their Dao mind. For this reason, I find it relevant to include all of the original descriptive words...

You study the I Ching too? That's impressive, even for a Chinese which you are not, unfortunately.

I, and some others, would like to know what was actually written in the text, so that we know what subtleties we might have missed by reading translations. The point for me or you or someone else is rarely the same thing, so you'll have to answer that for yourself.

I thought the study of the Tao Te Ching is a collective endeavor, each helping the other to find salvation for mankind. You are obviously not Chinese judging from your indivudalistic, selfish bent. You think that there is something in this for you and you only.

Plus, my interest in this personal rather than commercial, so if it makes sense to me and me only... cool..

It is good to know that you are not commercially exploiting the Tao Te Ching like Flowing Hands who must be raking in a small fortune selling fa fus and performing exorcisms. I wonder why dawei is promoting Flowing Hands in this forum. Does he get a commission?

Indeed, we state in Chapter 1 that the Tao that is spoken of is not the eternal Tao (Use whatever words you like to say this.)

 

So it is the "pure man", a physical manifestation, that we can talk about. The pure man may also be a Sage. We can talk about the attributes of a person (and Lao Tzu does that).

 

I know that there are many who like to link the Chapters of the TTC with the times and culture of the Chinese, hoping for a better, more thorough understanding. And that there are those who wish to link the Chapters to make it appear to be more like a novel.

 

Me? I am after the concepts however I can get them I try to listen to everyone and then use what I find useful.

Sounds like scavenging to me. How's it going so far? Show me one thing you found that is useful, and I mean practically useful even if it has no relationship to the US Dollar.

It shows the character is a negation...

 

It is a rather strange comment to say that when it comes to "classic", one cannot rely on Etymology (origin of a word)...

 

It is a good resource. I think people can decide for themselves if it is useful for them or not.

Pardon me. You are misbehaving yourself. This is Sifu Chi's class. All students must show respect. This is the Chinese way.

You are probably not Chinese. In a Chinese school, students do not argue with teachers.

It shows the character is a negation...

 

It is a rather strange comment to say that when it comes to "classic", one cannot rely on Etymology (origin of a word)...

 

It is a good resource. I think people can decide for themselves if it is useful for them or not.

Pardon me. You are misbehaving yourself. This is Sifu Chi's class. All students must show respect. This is the Chinese way.

You are probably not Chinese. In a Chinese school, students do not argue with teachers.

Actually, I only asked one question and you didn't answer that one.

 

But thanks for that link as another reference is always good to have.

Chapter 14 Revised

14

1. 視之不見,名曰夷。

2. 聽之不聞,名曰希。

3. 摶之不得,名曰微。

4. 此三者不可致詰，

5. 故混而為一。

6. 其上不皦，

7. 其下不昧，

8. 繩繩不可名，

9. 復歸於無物。

10.是謂無狀之狀，

11.無物之象，

12.是謂惚恍。

13.迎之不見其首，

14.隨之不見其後。

15.執古之道以御今之有。

16.能知古始，

17.是謂道紀。

 

Translated in terse English...

1. View it couldn't see, name and call it Colorless.

2. Listen to it couldn't hear, name and call it Soundless.

3. Touch it couldn't feel, name and call it Formless.

4. These three objects are impossible to cross-examine.

5. Thus they are blended into one.

6. Its top not brilliant.

7. Its bottom nor dim.

8. Its continuance unnameable.

9. Returned to being nothingness,

10. Is called form of no form.

11. An image of nothingness,

12. Is called obscure.

13. Greet it cannot see its head.

14. Follow it cannot see its back.

15. Grasp the past of Tao to be driven all the present physical beings

16. Able to understand the ancient origin,

17. It's called the Principles of Tao.

What is the purpose for writing this Chapter?

Seems like a party game of "guess what it is?"

Dawei and his gang believe there is something.

I know there is nothing.

All the same, it is great poetry and I am listening to it all the time so that I can recite it by heart.

Yes.

弗 is a very classical character of saying "no; not"; and

不 is the modern character was most used for "no; not".

Chapter 14 has a beautiful form and rhythym to it.

What do you think it is saying?

弗 is a synonym for 不 ?

If one understand the meanings of those classical characters, one will know that the phrases mean the something. If not, one should spend more time to learn the meanings of these characters.

 

BTW: Your ref: 德昏之而弗得命之曰夷

德 does not belong here. It was a blank space in the original.

and昏 should be 捪.

 

捪之而弗得， 命之曰夷

捪 means "touch".

昏 means dusk; dim; confused; to faint

 

 

In case someone didn't know. 弗 means 不。

In classic, 命 is the same as saying 名(to name something or someone.)。

 

Anymore question.....????

If one understand the meanings of those classical characters, one will know that the phrases mean the something. If not, one should spend more time to learn the meanings of these characters.

 

BTW: Your ref: 德昏之而弗得命之曰夷

德 does not belong here. It was a blank space in the original.

and昏 should be 捪.

 

捪之而弗得， 命之曰夷

捪 means "touch".

昏 means dusk; dim; confused; to faint

 

 

In case someone didn't know. 弗 means 不。

In classic, 命 is the same as saying 名(to name something or someone.)。

 

Anymore question.....????

弗 means 不 ?

Can you explain how that is so?