Ichigo

Ichigo,

Thanks for posting your experiences.

I have had a good day with first jhana by just going back to practicing vitakka and vicarra.

The formula is "point, sustain and monitor". When off, repoint, sustain and monitor.

Right now it is taking me 20 seconds to get into first jhana, complete with a star nimitta and bliss... Using the point in the right nostril. Although, today I have practiced two one hour sessions beforehand... So there is a cumulative effect..

Sounds great Tibetan!! I don't think I ever saw a nimitta as a star, only as greyish cloud like, or very bright whitish almost like looking directly at the sun... but I always use the bliss as the object to enter Jhana and not the nimitta, since it appears to me that the nimitta fuses in me? or with the breath? by itself if I keep sustaining my attention at the breath or the bliss.

Yeah, I noticed that once you experience bliss through meditation, the next time you practice the chances for it to come up is almost instantly.

I have been continued to practice this technique, and I must say it brings damn fast results!!! I am experience bliss as much as I want as long as I continue to focus on the breath and being aware of every distraction that arises, and I can also use the bliss as the object, and do the same thing with the distractions, this way the bliss becomes sooo intense!!, I guess the distraction technique works both on the breath as object and also as bliss as object!

I used to have success with only putting my attention on the breath and ignoring distractions with force, but that is now only a hit or miss for me and kind of uncomfortable because I feel I am trying to hard, but the current technique you can't go wrong with it! you can't say "oh what a shit session! so many distractions and couldn't stay on the breath!"

NO, in fact the more distractions the better I noticed! being close to jhana or actually entering it the thoughts and chatter mind fades away by itself, all you are left with is awareness and catching the thoughts that arise even faster

Thanks for sharing! hope to hear more of your awesome experiences!!!

SO I tried the technique!

Within around 5 minutes piti energy started to pervade my body! I like when it hits the chest/heart area, it's soo blissful!!!

Anyway!, I focused on the bodily bliss, it grew stronger, then I got excited that the technique actually works and about reporting it here , then it faded away... then it took me some minutes to calm myself down, I continued the practice (30 minutes in total)... near the end bliss started to rise again, I almost got a full blown jhana absorption! almost!, everything (the background, eyes closed) became super bright, bliss became heavenly, (however that's only before the absportion takes place, when it takes places you are actually bathing and completely blissed out in bliss, that's the so called 2nd Jhana, when you don't need to put effort in anymore) that's the absorption I am familiar with and always had before (in dharmaoverground they call it hard jhana), for me that's the real jhana, when it actually goes all the way and pervades your entire body and mental with bliss energy without directing any effort into the breath, but just being with bliss, that even when you try to think something, it will be very hard... it's always good to use bodily bliss as the object, but only when it becomes stable and strong enough, then it will take one all the way to an absorption

Anyway great session! even now as I write this my feeling of well being is over the top, yeah!!!!

PS: it's funny, the whole session I almost or at all didn't feel the breath sensation at the nostrils spot, yet coming back to that spot and trying to feel the breath there seems enough for it to work as well...

PS2: about the noting, I actually don't note verbally, on whatever distracts me from the breath, I just become aware of it for 1 or 2 seconds like he said, and then returning to the nostril spot to watch the breath over there...

EDIT: short second season, piti energy arised not more then 2-3 minutes!! almost instantly as I laid down, most of the season I just stayed with that energy, feeling all fuzzy and blissful!!

I am barely even on the nostrils/breath, distractions are raping me from all directions

Anyway, I am going to stop reporting until I get a full absorption, else I will get distracted by reporting this and that during practice haha

Hey!

Thanks!

Since the dharmaoverground message thing is bugged I tried contacting him at

http://www.yogaforums.com/forums/members/siro-11629.html

Which shows he has been inactive for at least 2 years

Yeah, I have read that post about the noting part... at first I thought I got it by reading this line:

There is no noting of the breath going on. The only thing you should be noting are sensations that CAPTURE your attention, or get in the way of your focusing on the breath. Do not note things if they do not take your attention away from the breath.

 

The catch is, as your concentration deepens, so will the strength of your thoughts, and thus will your ability for those thoughts to capture your attention. You WANT the thoughts to capture your attention, because this is the only way to note them in a manner where they will not come back.

At this phrase I can translate it in the way that the distractions will capture or PULL my attention completely away from the breath and then note that distraction and come back to the breath...

Now later on there is this line

You basically keep noting that which is noticed in your attention, but do not go searching for them. If you are searching then you are not concentrating. Sometimes powerful sensations will arise that will enter your field of awareness, these are the things that you want to note. Things such as a buzzing noise in your room.

 

Imagine you are in a room of flies, and that you are concentrating on a particular part of the room. There are flies everywhere, but you don't go looking for them. When a fly enters your field of awareness, then catch(note) it. This is akin to noting a thought. When you catch it, it's done. You basically keep focusing on that field of awareness until no more flies/thoughts enter it. Combining these 2 things together, your concentration will begin to become absorbed with the thing that you are being aware of, and flies/thoughts will gradually stop entering your field of awareness.

I get the part of not looking for stuff to note, however here I feel it implies that even when you are STILL on the breath and distractions or sensations arise, even though they don't PULL your attention off the breath, you still not them...

So I am unsure which is correct... if it were the second one, I would be noting the whole time, because even when on the breath one might sense the smallest sensation entering your awareness field and focus on the breath would be greatly reduced...

If the first one is correct, well then it's like that of Bhante V, where you only note stuff that pulls your focus from the breath completely...

Long time ago I came across this post on the dharmaoverground

http://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/3722283

haven't paid too much attention to it before, but today I have reread this post and some other posts on another forum (he seems to be quite knowledgeable and knows what he talks about, very honest with himself)

The technique is more or less similar to bhante V, only without the smiling part and relax, btw they never explain to you how you even relax that tension in your head, everyone makes their own idea up on how to do it, but that doesn't make it correct.

I take my words back on permanently putting the 6R into my routine, first of all, he claims that with breath meditation the result takes 6 times longer to come, also I don't like metta practice, I don't feel any of this is real or speaks to me... second, forcing a smile, just isn't comfortable for me...

Now I am all in for having a practice with a combo of concentration and insight together, with the possibility to hit Jhana, and as I am already doing the noting practice, might as well use this guy's combo, which the mahasi tradition does more or less too...

The only thing I am unsure about with his technique, is that you only label distractions/sensations when it pulls your mind completely off the breath? because that's how it's done with bhante V... but he says that if you notice things entering your awareness but you are still on the breath, you don't apply the 6R...

So I asked this guy on the forum (he has been inactive for years) about this, hopefully he will get the message somehow

PS: I don't like the dhamawheel forum, I feel they are too closed minded, trying to proof each other always with arguments without trying to work on themself to some level

W-O-W

I just tried the 6R with the breath sensation at the nostrils almost with every distraction applying 6R, and very fast I was knocking on 1st Jhana's door!, this concludes that the distractions doesn't matter nor does following the breath for a long time (without distraction), in fact may even speed hitting jhana faster!

This technique is going on my list permanently!

Also, after 20 minutes of this, I went to do the noting technique, and my mind's speed and accuracy was Amazing!!!! I don't know if this has to do with bhante's technique, but my mind feels very clear just like he suggests in his videos!

Bhante about Breath Meditation

PART: 1

PART: 2

Hahaha! nice coincidence! since yesterday I started practicing Bhante's technique, I yet haven't tried it with the breath the whole sequence of releasing, smiling, back to object, I did it on his metta practice which he recommends the most, even more than the one with the breath... I soo get it what you mean when you first start practicing this sequence of his and how it became a distraction by itself... I have read many people swearing by his technique that they have done more progress than practicing another vippasana technique for years... hopefully I will get the hang of his technique as fast as possible.

Not gonna lie I am still a little bit skeptic about this whole metta practice, even though yesterday when I started practice with quite a skeptical mind, I did feel some energy stuff happening inside of me and at some point I felt my smile coming up automatically because of the nice feelings (not jhana factors)

But hey, he tells students to give it a try for a few days or weeks, he doesn't talk about years of trying it and than if it doesn't work to stop it. no, he tells everyone to give it a fair chance with results coming up in mere days.

Less talking words, more practicing...

Thanks for your comments Ichigo. Very interesting!

There appears to be two different practices going on. One is concentration/shamatha and the other is noting.

I thought that you get to the jhanas through the concentration practice. In noting practice you are supposed to note everything, and somewhat quickly too according to Daniel Ingram.

So are you doing concentration practice or noting?

yeah I get the Jhana through the concentration practice. Sometimes I am doing the concentration practice before starting the noting practice, but I think I will skip that and just do the noting practice so I can put more time in that.

From what I understand the vipassana jhanas are a bit different then the concentration ones:

http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/dharma-wiki/-/wiki/Main/vipassana+jhanas+

In that case, one reach them with insight meditation such as noting...

Some sessions when I did the noting practice I did feel bliss and joy and a very well sense of being... so maybe I am wrong and maybe not but that might be the the first vipassana jhana as mentioned.

Daniel M. Ingram:

The First Vipassana Jhana is the version of the First Samatha Jhana that instead of dwelling in some aspects of stability and the standard jhanic qualities of concentration, effort and bliss, instead looks at the insight-oriented aspects and attains to the following insight stages:

on the 2nd vipassana jhana there is this A&P event that one can drop on, usually these experiences are suppose to be mind blowing and memorable, which can also result sometimes in bliss 24/7 for a while as well

Here is a list by Daniel everything one can experience on a A&P event

http://integrateddaniel.info/the-arising-and-passing-away/

Still many stuff on the wiki for me especially things related to insight are really hard to understand for me, I will just continue practicing and see where it takes me

Ok. I've read "Mahasi Sayadaw’s Practical Insight Meditation: Basic and Progressive Stages (1991) once.

 

My goal is to read it five times too, like Daniel Ingram. ( the pages 32 and 35 are unreadable in the pdf due to some strange font. But, if you copy and paste the whited out garbled text into Notes, or some other text editor, it renders that text correctly)

 

Funny, I've switched to focusing the breath at the abdomen for two meditation sessions today and during the second one, I started to hit first jhana towards the end of it. (By the way, this is something that Alan Wallace said that was not achievable when focusing on the abdomen because the movements and sensations from breathing were too coarse at that location... Learn something new every day)

 

The other thing that I find strange is that in that book, the part of the instructions that says not to focus on the lights seems to be at odds with the typical instruction of using the nimitta as an entry point to jhana, as per Ajahn Brahm and other Theravada teachers. However, I will say that a nimitta/moon of white light is very prominent at the navel area and very easy to see psychically there, so maybe that counts for something..

 

However, when I started to hit the first jhana during my second session, I did notice that the path of motion of the abdomen's movements was turning into a counterpart sign (mental representation of the object of focus). According to Sayadaw, you would note that a few times until it disappeared and then go back to noting the sensations at the lower abdomen.

 

Interesting stuff.

I have read Sayadaw book! great book, just like Daniel says, straight to the point... also it clears many doubts about the practice, he sure knows what he is talking about!

Yes! I also had success with the abdomen motion attention! if I might say so very fast especially when I tried to see the motions as something pleasurable, the bliss was pouring out so strongly that shifting my attention back to the abdomen was simply impossible...

However what I noticed is that when the object is at a narrow spot at the nostrils the mind is much much more quite then at the abdomen... even if willfully I wanted to think something, it would hardly let me... but with the abdomen part I feel that the mind is a bit more active despite experincing so much incredible bliss...

One other thing I came to a conclusion is that... long time before many times almost instantly every session a couple of times a day when I hit the first Jhana, my mind would get absorbed and take me to the second jhana where there is no more need to use an effort approach and everything takes care of itself... it's like my mind would slip into it instantly and I didn't have to maintain the first jhana too long to get there...

These days I don't get that "slip absorption" automatically, and it's not like my concentration or practice style or life style changed for it to affect it in such a way...

I have read many post on the dharmaoverground, and also Daniel Ingram himself mentions that once one reaches stream entry with the noting practice, the concentration practice can bring one to experience the Jhana states much faster and almost instantly upon a sit...

I hate bringing science to spiritual topics, but if I had to theorize, the mindfulness practice does something neurologic/or opens some kind of pathway or whatever and makes it for one easier to slip into these states without much effort in the first place.

Actually, this Dzogchen instruction sounds very similar to "noting practice" to me.

 

So, by simply knowing the thought, it is released. That is from the book called "the Great Secret of Mind". It is part of Longchenpa's instruction.

Thanks for sharing your views!

I continue doing the noting practice without the labels... so just "noticing" if you willl

I find that much more comfortable then labling everything and much smoother. usually within 30 minutes I get this buzzing sound and pleasant sensations over the body (not piti)... the flavors are similar to when doing concentration practice but before entering jhana, but still it's different.

I am going to keep practicing this as it sounds/looks promising, maybe after a while I will be able to understand what people talk about on dharmaoverground by cycling over the nanas etc...

In any case I think the dharmaoverground forum is the best forum out there when it comes to insight and jhana stuff as people actually share their experience and diagnoses.

Perhaps you crossed A&P, then stalled in dissolution? Your description sounds like that: amazing vibrations -> boring couch potato stage. Not sure where I am on the maps myself, because I've had no really obvious landmarks.

Hmm, it could also be just because I never got to experience that again, trying to replicate the experience, and seeing no results, making it boring

Have you ever tried, instead of letting your attention move to the nimitta right away, trying to keep your focus in the breath?

Yeah, sometimes when I am able I keep focusing on the breath until the very bright light in some kind of way emerges with the breath and automatically I am pushed/absorbed into the bliss and from there it keeps growing on my entire being and I am enjoying the blissful bath ride for a few seconds, after that I feel completely blissed out...

but many times I also don't succeed, I have found a small spot at the nostril, near one of the nostril (whichever one is more open at that time) let's say the right nostril, then at the right nostril the little spot near the nostrils bridge at the bottom, I follow the breath sensation there, more or less on the rims of that location, I try to keep it as smalll as possible...

Usually after a few minutes  I feel rapture arising and the whole background and stuff brightning up with light, while keeping attention on the breath sensation, it starts to get so blissful that I am getting distracted to pay any further attention on the breath, of course I can shift my attention to the bliss, but it's not always stable enough to grow any further. of course that doesn't mean I don't enjoy the well being feeling and some other small pleasurable feelings inside the body that comes out as a result of that, and just wanting to lay down there with that

btw, what do you think about the noting technique that is being used a lot around the dharmaoverground forum and Kenneth to reach stream entry and the paths beyond? do you practice it? why or why not? months ago when the first time I did that practice and noted everything so fast (sensations, thoughts, hearing, seeing, blabalbal) my entire being was simply building up with very intense vibrations, like I am some kind of tornado... after that I kept practicing it, but not having many experiences and wasn't sure if it's something I want to continue practicing I gave up... until recently I though I should going with it again and experience my self what Daniel Ingram was talking about all this time

Thanks Tibetan!

Well I returned to following the breath somewhere inside the nostrils at a specific point like from the very beginning, I realize other places don't work good enough for me, with the sensation place I focus on, everything happens quite with a boom, like after a while following the breath, a very intense light appears and rapture, and automaticaly my attention just moves to it in a flick... I am absorbed like a blanket in that energy, and enjoy the ride of being in that blisful state for a few seconds or minutes if possible until it fades away,

Well that was a short 3 months...

 

I hit first jhana again this afternoon.

 

My morning meditation consisted of moving my attention around the room, with eyes closed, visualizing or seeing internally with the third eye, the details in the room, then outside the house, the whole city, then the universe. Slowly working on expanding my "knowing" and practising manipulating my attention. It is such a wonderful way to enter the natural state and let go of the tension.

 

During the afternoon meditation it was very easy to trace the complete cycle of a breath. Also, I have been reviewing Ajahn Brahm's "Mindfulness, Bliss and Beyond", picking up pointers. A very interesting one is this:

 

 

So, I went back to loving my breath as I watched it. Within three breaths the nimitta was visible directly behind the counterpart sign. It resembled a little star. Within seconds, rapture appeared that lasted and lasted until I shut it down at the end of the session.

 

Once I succeed at nailing down the technique and master the first jhana, I look forward to the higher jhanas where I can leave the rapture at will..

 

Hey

Like always thanks for sharing your amazingly experiences!

So what is your exact method right now (where you follow the breaths as well and in what detailed way) to have such long blisful effects?

In every meditation session I get to the stage where blisful or rapture energy starts to arise in my physical body (but not strong enough for it not to fade away when I draw my attention to it), but I feel like I can't anymore make it strong enough (even though I return to the breath for the blisful energy in the body to become stronger so when I abadon the breath I actually get a powerful absorbtion for the energy to expand my entire being like a blanket...)

Long time ago in every meditation session in a matter of minutes I could become absorbed in those waves of bliss, perhaps not for a long time, but long enough for me to consider it was a succsessful session...

Nowdays this doesn't happen as much or barely, which basicaly means in my opinion that I am doing something not exactly right or insufiecient, even when I feel my concentration is really almost the whole time with or on the breath and less then 5 distraction thoughts a session even though whenever something else gets my attention within a split second I return to the breath... there must be something I am doing not %100 correctly... one can meditate for 100 years and not get sucked in the jhanas, so I see it more as having a correct way or method to actually get them...

What's your secret?

PS: oh yeah, I basicaly at around the nose or nostrils staying on the sensations of the breath, or just the feeling at the nostrils of the feeling pressure of the IN-breath and OUT-breath mechanism itself, which if there is air felt around there my attention will just be drawn to that as well,

Sorry, but what you experienced doesn't sound like Kundalini at all!,

more like hypomania.

Kundalini raising isn't about emotions or emotional rollercoaster, kundalini is about raising the life force from the the root to the crown or third eye.. if you didn't experience that on an energetic level then like most people you are making excuses and blame any symptoms or emotions on kundalini.

Genuine yogis raise kundalini to the head a couple of times a day from root to head to clear out the central channel and to reach a higher stage of conscious.. there is no such thing as kundalini "awakening" kundalini isn't something that once you raise it to the head it stays with you 24/7.. you need to keep raising it to the head and over months/years it might stay out of the root chakra for longer period of times.

Instead masturbating and letting that energy out of the sexual organ as a natural approach, yogis manipulate that energy to move kundalini down the root and up the head through the spine.

Welcome, Have Fun!