damdao

I thought that sophistry was natural in you, but it comes that it is a conscious election. First, you tried to put me in a dilemma when it was explicitly stated that the problem has many nuances and whichever horn I chose it is a simplification of the problem. Second, following you the only requirement for not selling a seminar is the recommendation of celibacy. Unfortunately, the opposite is true. In these "spiritual" circles the best was to sell, not only a seminar but a school, is speaking about celibacy, asceticism, and self-torture. If you offer a path in which the requirements are silence, abstinence, self-humiliation and self-blaming you will have most of the public, but if you say that no sel-mortification and celibacy is required but a normal, balanced and integrated life is needed, most people will say that it is a fraud. If there is no [obvious] pain there is no alchemy. It reminds me the story written by Idries Shah (under the pen name of Rafael Lefort) in which a seeker after truth goes to a sufi for initiation and the sufi ask the seeker if he is ready to abandon the world and to live a life of raw food and roots, the seeker nodded, and the sufi disappointed told the seeker: do you believe that the cathedrals, the medical improvements, etc. were possible thanks to eating roots people? The morale is that a better acceptance is on the side of self-denial. Third, you accuse opendao of ad-hominen arguments as first tool and you are quoting the last sentence of a post (the first post in a long list, btw).

This is a kind of sophistry, Opendao explicitly said that in Yuxianpai celibacy is required at some stages, so it is difficult that he himself was implying (or directly accusing) that his own school do not know what is doing. And of course it is not the same to say that "it is required" (or something natural at some stage) than blindly state "it is a must".

Can you provide a general definition of these three: qigong, yangshenggong and neigong? Neigong is defined very differently in different writers and yangshenggong seems similar to qigong, even some teachers teach sets with the name yangshenggong as qigong set. I am really confused about that.

It appears that to innersoundetc all distance learning or all correspondence courses come from Dao De Centre otherwise it is inexplicable his trolling here and in Opendao's thread (I know that usually his post are inexplicable). Besides, he did not understand what Opendao said about Wang's Mu book. It is a pity. New posts confusing everything and everybody.

I think that this comment (and the former) corresponds rather to this thread: http://thedaobums.com/topic/38209-anus-control-and-breathing/

I don't think that in neidan, golden light could be cultivated directly, at least not through visualizations (that are post-heaven). There is a golden light meditation and golden light mantra, some schools use it as part of a mystical qigong. I think that in neidan the golden light surrounding the practitioner is a sign of progress. By the way, as you seem interested in comparing sources, the metaphor of the flower of the soul is even found in Proclus, in the neoplatonism.

In neidan too is a representation of the center. And in the Secret of th Golden Flower it is mentioned:

It is hilarious what happens in these debates, the one who preached celibacy, virtue, etc. wrote in nearly all the posts about the penis, and the one accused of lack of virtue was always pointing at a nonphysical process. In the same way, these schools were accused of being aggressive and now if a young fella want to study there he could feel bullied for that. And for the record, I want to study in those schools too, so theres one more in the list and counting. And many more even if they don't want to study neidan, at least now have a better conceptual tool in order to judge the differences between neidan and qigong, and this was the goal of the OP.

Now that you mention that, I remember Tom Bisio's explanation of Neigong exercises, and goes similar to what you said. And I think that this turns the practice a deeper, either static postures or movements.

I think that Cleary's translations are far of being objective. So, even his version is far better than Wilhem's, still it is made from a psychological point of view, intending to demonstrate some kind of world view with Zen Buddhism and Sufism mixed. In fact, his translation of SGF is filtered by his readings of Idries Shah's version of Sufism (the same goes for his translation of Wang's Liping story). Speaking of the Devil (Shah), he had a very interesting trick: The italics are mine.

I was looking for a post of Zoom, but it seems that it was erased, so my reply has to be more general and perhaps it is not addressing one of the points under discussion. The point I wanted to remark is that in Daoism yin-yang are not static things, and most of time we have to bear in mind what yang and what yin is, in which phase or moment of its development is, how is the relation inside-outside, function-form, etc. Daoism is not binary mode of thinking, I presume. So, Lu Dong Ping (the very same author of the SGF) ask to his master: So, although heaven and earth seem to be yin or yang, in its interactions for the purpose of alchemy they have to follow certain movements that perhaps are not the obvious ones.

In my studies of neidan I have found that certain systematization is needed, and to put some concepts in the right (or near) place and to distinguish some ideas that seem mixed is compulsory. In this particular, I think that here Opendao has shown some of the principles needed to understand neidan in general and Daoism in particular. 1º: Plurality of models, in Daoism there are several models working in different texts and for different purposes. 2º: Distinction between function and form. We can find it in many texts. Even in SGF we have these two classical components plus the basis of foundation: So, an understanding of form and function is fundamental in every daoist study, especially in neidan. For instance, in the Lung Hu jing -Dragon-Tiger Classic- and in the Zhong Lü Chuan Dao Ji - Dialogues between Zhong Li Quan and Lu Dong Pin- this distinction is used constantly. 3º Inside yang is yin, and their different phases (tai yang, tai yin...) etc. 4º Distinction between initial yang-yin and ulterior combinations.

Allow me a couple of questions about yingui and shuimo. When you spoke about the damage produced because of the movement of the yuanqi but with its origin only in the student's impurities, are these impurities related to yingui/shuimo too? Is the work of purification (in this respect) twofold, that is, moral purification -via neidan cultivation- and get rid of yingui/shuimo? Are yingui/shuimo related to imagination, fantasies and similar activities (in addition to the already mentioned in earlier posts)? Thanks in advance

Thank you so much! Very interesting indeed.

Are yingui sexually related only or they are related to all yin activities? Do you mention dazuo in relation with this aspect? In the book Cultivating Perfection by Komjathy again, are cited several fragments about shuimo and yingui (from Wang's Chongyang Jinguan yusuo jue, for instance and a Commentary to Zhang's Boduan Jiutian shegshenzhangjing), and shows that they can provoke shen leakage, is for that reason (and that of the first question) that neidan opposes to lucid dreaming practices?

I found this, perhaps you already knew it: This gloss is made in discussing the daily practice texts, between them the Ten admonitions of Ma Danyang. I think that Chinese buddhists think something similar. But I endorse your post, it will be interesting an expansion over the "other reasons", especially from the point of view of actual neidan practice.

I am glad that at least we can limit the field and extension of the terms under discussion. The next is a very complex issue and sometimes the obvious or apparent of a situation don't let -to the inattentive reader- see the propfound (as we can see in the taoisttexts' reply). I will give you some examples in what seems to be your tradition. Some things can be "hidden in the crowd" as the expression goes, as in the case of Swami Nityananda Giri who, because of the leakeage of kriyayoga methods, published a book with all the techniques and procedures of kriya yoga, BUT, without giving out the order, amount, limit, etc. things that has to be displayed by a teacher. Hidden masters: perhaps are hidden if one is not able to search properly. To read the diaries of Lahiri Masahaya it was needed to know Bengali (not now of course), in this case it is good to begin learning Chinese and then search for in the Chinese megaweb, and then you will find things. But, is this a proof? Do it serve to your purpose? Because of that you have to invest "some" time and dedication, in order to know and interact with people and above all, know what is under the surface. This is not a simple task that can be done reading a book of watching a video. Besides, it is important to see oneself and ask, why I am afraid to get involved with actual people? I'm not saying that this is your case, but in some posts there seems to be an attempt to force the ancient methods in order to show that you must to be allowed to learn neidan on the home's couch watching or reading. There are more variants to bear in mind, but most of it is personal work, if one is interested.

I think that as my mother tongue is not English I am not able to understand some subtleties and pleasantries but if you are not capable to think critically about what you inherit or what is impose on you, well... there is no much to say. Follow what it is said to you only because it is said by some elders, etc. If you think like a child perhaps you need this kind of education. Besides, the golden rule is some kind categorical imperative (in the kantian sense) but is not at all the last word in ethics. You cannot cancel a debate invoking such a "golden rule".

I was thinking about let it pass because we get off topic and very far away of the OP, but something must be said, for the record. And because is good manners not to keep the last word (and good manners are virtue) I will not reply a reply to this. But this is the problem with puritanism, first you begin with celibacy as compulsory for spiritual path (though we are speaking about neidan here) and then take a leap as to assert that celibacy is virtue and then speak about virtue forgetting that the point was not virtue per se but celibacy. In logics this is called fallacy. But what is worse are the consequences, because who is not celibate has no virtue and then is a vile person. Second, Yan Xin speaks about good deeds, generosity, charity, goodness, etc. etc. So, a married person is not able to do good deeds? Are you buying it? Or worse, are you selling it? About human virtue, well, I think that debate about it could be a league for which you are not ready yet. In Islam (but I know that here its perspectives are most of time neglected) there is a serious debate about what is angelic nature, human nature and animal nature (in what regards to ethics, behaviour and modes of knowledge). Again, go away from the society, is it in accordance with human nature? The latter is only one example, there are several ones, characterizations and divisions regarding different levels of virtue and knowledge has not to be taken too lightly.

People with destiny do not need to be told. People without destiny - do not care who says what.

Instead of argumentation... ...Jew-Christian tactics of fear and other-worldly punishment... This is really interesting... ...to say the least.

This is very interesting. Who says that this behaviour is virtue and that one is not virtue? Acting under what interests and prejudices says that? It makes me remember once that Robert Thurman said that in tantra you can experience a sexual pleasure more powerful that the one you experiences with another person and because of that a tantric practicioner doesn't experiences pain not having a partner. This is an interesting buddhist-like way of miss entirely the point about something life-related, in this case marriage and family. These two later has little to do to sexual pleasure, so developing that kind of explanation shows the solipsistic point of view so prevalent among spiritual seekers. And this leads to a negation of life, self-denial and so on. In this case is the same, no body said that you don't have to do character reformations but these are done in another (an alternative) way. What kind of desire could you enjoy if you are developing your yuan shen? We are thinking here that someone in the xian way will think and feel with shi shen plus youthful vigour, but this is wrong, all the structure changes, so don't worry, the idea is not to gain vigour in order to be 7/24 in the disco. Besides, here the chariot is before the horse, neidan is not about stay young, is about spiritual deliverance, but in this path certain signs are developed, if this signs does not occur something is wrong. Finally, as Taomeow pointed out in another thread, "virtue" "de" is related to power, and this is true either in chinese and in latin ('virtus' from which the English word is derived), so other connotations perhaps have its origin in Christian ethics but does not correspond neither with 'de' nor with 'virtue' (and of course, neidan has the very technical definition of superior virtue and inferior virtue that are different from a simple ethical definition).

To my disgust, things like the underlined give credit to Freud's theory of lapsuses. And Lahiri Mahasaya recommended a frequency of intercourse a little more than enough for procreation, he stated that is ok a couple of times a month.

If celibacy is so important, why do you put in your avatar a married master? It seems that you have been very selective in your reading about life of masters. The rose of Baghdad, Abd 'ul Qadir al Jaylani who is one of the most respected shaykh in sufism had four wives and fifty-some children, following the prophetic sunna or example, and the seal of the saints, 'Ibn al 'Arabi had a couple of wives and some children. In sufism married saints (men and women) are the rule, the exception are the celibates. The patriarch of Zhao's Bichen lineage is his grand grand son, and of course he had a son. In yoga many reputed teachers (aka masters, etc.) say that celibacy is not mandatory (see Satyananda and his kriyayoga), and there is no agreement about the actual meaning of brahmacarya, so no need to translate as celibacy. Besides, there is no need to ignore the sociological dimension of celibacy, i.e. as a mean of control over people and a means to avoid social impositions, but not always a spiritual virtue. At last but not least, Yogananda and Rama had very serious accusations of sexual misconduct with their female students, does not this ring a bell?

This is a Copernican turn around in the hermeneutics of this text. It makes sense. And it is a good instance of the necessity of unlearn misconceptions in order to learn properly. Good food for thought.