damdao

So, I suppose that all these allusions to a "cheater "truuuuue" teacher (pai)" in so many post are general and not aimed to anybody in particular..

This one: http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/40192-open-talk-daoist-practice-alchemy-and-neigong-q-a-online/

I think you did the first move attacking Wuliupai in Opendao's thread, in the thread in which he offers skype interview for Q&A.

The contribution made by Needham is one of the greatest, I am trying some day to have enough time in order to read some of his research in spagyrics and neidan. Have we a thread about him? He even went to the point of suggesting that the Emerald Tablet is of Chinese origin (a real fan of Chinese civilization and Daoism), and I think that in his time the Tratise on the Great One from Guodian mss was unknown.

I am not Russian! So the convention is more extended, I think. This is a little off topic, but I want to know. How do you call someone doing research in asian studies? Or sociology? I thought it is social scientist or something like that.

This book is amazing http://www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520230347 Is a translation of the hagiographies of the immortals. Full of notes discussing chinese terms, translations. historical data, etc. There is (or was) a translation of the Baopuzi by James Ward, but is har to find and I dont know its accuracy or the edition.

If you are not being ironic, yes, when a person works in an academic field (even humanities) he is called scientist. Some links: http://www.kheper.net/topics/Taoism/external_and_internal.html http://www.kheper.net/topics/Taoism/science_and_magic.html http://www.kheper.net/topics/Taoism/Mystfem.html I am trying to find a paper about the ling that was outstanding. Russel Kirkland mentions him in his Aknowledgments in Taoism the Enduring Tradition, an excellent book. In general, knowledge of Russian scientist (in Buddhism and Daoism) is very rewarding. I realize it many years ago studying India-related topics in college. The problem is that they write in Russian

[1] I am not saying we as beings began with the body but the neidan work begins with the body. In fact, not only the neidan but the self consciousness and the need for the spiritual is awakened by the physical reality. I am mingling the Indian concept of pravritimarga and nivritimarga, going to the matter and getting out from the matter. But I think that in daoism there is something similar. So, while there a underliying "spiritual" process before we are born (and even developments and karmas from past birth if one accepts previos births) we need a physical body in order look up to the spiritual realm. Otherwise we could develop an spirtual body without need to be born in a physical body. I understand that it may be stated that the path is trodden from the two extremes the divine and the human at the same time (the islamic saying in which God says: when a devote walks one step towards Me I walk ten towards him") but this is more akin with misticism or xing paths. In some paths (neidan, tantra hindu and buddhist, for instance) the body its energies, the emotions are used in order to achieve the goal. A question: Do you make a distinction between soul and spirit? How do you explain the formless soul? [2] Well, there are schools that use post-heaven methods before pre-natal methods. Qigong as we know is very recent, so some use what is called yangshen. It is not neidan properly speaking but is not qigong either, the difference lies in the goal (and in the ideology we could say). [3] This is a little difficult matter to deal with. I think that the relation between youwei and wuwei varies from school to school and inside a school between sublineages. I have some information that expreses exactly what you have said. But others maintain that you can use youwei in order or set in motion a wuwei mechanism. I have no practiced the former, so I cannot say nothing about that but I was told that it works fine. Secondly, set up the body is not part of neidan, you use the body as the cauldron and in order to do that you need to "forge" it so to say, in order to prevent leakeage throught holes. Besides we must not confuse work with ming with work with the body, I have read many posts that use them interchangeably, this is more akin to modern qigong. [4] It is true that da dan is the goal of neidan, but before that you have other dan, and you have many elixirs too. None of them must be neglected, otherwise we cannot attain the dadan. In the path we have the absolute and the relative and both should be cultivated it is not right to neglect one for the other. I mean, you could do that in chan but daoism (and other systems) uses both. I am referring to the gradation of elixirs, etc. How the different elixirs are produced and their relation with organs and water wheels are explained in the book of Zhong y Lü, translated by Wong as Tao of Health...,and Holding the Yin Embracing the Yang by Wong too. In this sense and coming back to ladies' alchemy Elena Valussi quoting Liu Yi Ming saying that if it is indeed true that the Dao does not distinguish between male and female (that was a disciple's question) notwithstanding the use of the practice is different. More from Liu Yi Ming: http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/41858-liu-i-ming-on-women-alchemy/ And in another post about nudan: http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/27013-female-dan/?p=403012 For instance, in Wang Liping's Longmen lineage there is a system of nudan. So many school use nudan not because the highest state is male or female but because in the initial steps the body reacts differently to the changes induced by neidan practice and the refinement of sustances varies too. Interestingly tibetan schools practice visualizations of channels differently for man and woman... but sometimes do not, as recently Tenzin Wangmyal began to use the same location for both genders. And it was on purpose.

Can you elaborate a bit about that? Or, post a link?

I will read again your post and do a couple of comments. I think that we will (as good daoists) be in agreement... and in disagreement. Partly because what you said is perfectly right from certain point of view but from others there are many hues. Even in one Pai you have several approaches, some more akin with what you said some not. I am thinking about longmen pai in particular. Later I will post something.

I think that only the western point of view in this matter is not enough. We have spoke about sexual orientation and gender but so far we have not spoke about energetic interactions inside the bodies. And I think that chinese devised a whole branch for females due to these energetic interactions. Besides, I don't think it is right to state that neidan is about formless spirit, we begin with the body and the body is form and polarity.

Sorry, but what background do you have? Read some books on that.

I don't know and it I don't care really. But this math is taoistexts-like from cases in one field you project to another totally different field. Based on the evidence brought out about buddhism we only can conclude in buddhism not in other traditions. And again, the japanese case is different, Japan has more context for that, even they have depicted Mañjushri (I believe) as protecting homosexuality but it is something peculiar to them.

No, I was refering to the academic point of view. Only that. There are indeed anthropological sudies about homosexuality inside monastics institutions but in the field of buddhist sudies, this was the word I used, not buddhism per se. Also the passage to Japan perhaps has more to do with japanese institutions. The greek part was about the mingling seeker was speaking about. It was well documented in greek sources but we have no parallel in China. Besides, today we have many studies about sexual abuse (either homo or hetero) inside monastics (either buddhists or christians). The knowledge about that is more complete today. In this sense it seems to me not appropriate to put all together indiscrimenately.

What a great mixture of sources! You are putting together buddhist studies, greeks and daoists.

Of course it does not say that, but it is very diferent from the baidu link you provided, with poor information and misleading. By the way, have you ever read about Huato's children?

Another book here, this one more scholarly https://www.amazon.com/Taoism-Enduring-Tradition-Russell-Kirkland/dp/0415263220 The author uses many pages for deconstruct the confucian prejudice that depicts the daoist as a mountain-hermit.

That lineages offer historical problems is one thing, but to say that Chinese don't believe lineages when they are molded by them is another. I will leave aside the rethoric of war, there are wars for many reasons, lineage being the less usual I think. But, because of the difficulty to know a real teacher is important to study the classics. In order to ask the right questions. Of course, such kind of disciple must have a high degree of scholarship and selfcultivation. Because of that I put Walkers questions as an example of questions from deep study: http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42697-yuxianpai-wuliupai-tradition-doctrine/?p=723815 And this kind of questions, I think, is something that Opendao tell us some years ago, this and the importance of right knowledge in order to test a system and a master. So, if we have doubts about a lineage, master, school, etc., we need to do the research in order to be able to find the right criteria for judge them. This take time and effort. Is not something one can do with "common sense" or disinformation.

Well, since many moths ago Taoists Texts was exposed for using only fallacies. Because of that I call him "sophist", in the common use of the word. Here two examples in which he was debunked and caught in his own net: http://thedaobums.co...nix-to-penglai/ http://thedaobums.co...-dummies/page-4

According to other accounts he found his master when he was 31 years old. So plenty of time for children... See New Excursions from the Hall of Harmonious Wind by Cunren Liu, p. 186

This statements are not true. Chinese people depend on genealogy even for basic things as to how to speak to a relative. So the alusion to money is ridiculous. A mere strategy devised in order that readers associate automatically lineage with money-makers. Many families has a genealogy book. From there they chose the names of the newborns. You know that, you are not so young as to not take in account genealogy or lineage. Here, for instance, a family of Chinese (Taiwanese) doctors specialized in ophthalmology has registers of ten generations of practitioners. I know the 9th and 10th generation doctors and I have seen the familiar medical book. So lineage and genealogy matters a lot. All nations molded by confucian thought use genealogy, achievements and so on in the daily relations.

Here you have a book in which it is shown that daoists have different proffessions and approaches, not the stereotyped soft image depicted by the hippie new age of the '60s. https://www.amazon.es/Alchemists-Mediums-Magicians-Stories-Mystics/dp/1590306597 On the other hand, there were always debates between schools. In buddhism too, and very harsh, why ignore that and paint a totally equivocal picture of harmony and sweetness?

For the record, Opendao has not brough shame upon the school, on the contrary, he helped a lot of people to understand what is neidan and what is not.

I think this is a good example of someone formulating deep and interesting questions based on extensive reading and thought (I am far from being able to do that yet), and not the simple reaction of questioning without reflection or attention or out mere curiosity.

Very interesting. But... It seems to me that the author does not take into account that teh daoism itself is so heterogeneous that this professions are (and were) not at odds with daoist philosophy.