damdao

Is it possible to explain what does it means "leakage of yuan jing"? I have read that study as any form of mental concentration is a form of leakage, is there any way of studying (for instance) that does not implies leakage at the same time? If "stopping the leakage" is said of every human activity so the diagram of leakage in the Huimingjing is not be applied literally to certain body spots, is that what is meant?

Perhaps this could be useful: http://www.14944.net/daoshu/dianji/wuliu/

I think that one of the main reasons why these days it is so difficult to understand the difficulties of alchemy, is because we haven't the original tools. I realised that with the fire schedule (huohou), today you turn on the oven and thats all. In old days you had to be by the side of the fire many ours with a fan, caring about the intensity of the fire, sometimes fanning and sometimes waiting. So, you can stablish a fire schedule as part of the recipe in order to prepare an herbal medicine, without this fire schedule even if you had the correct ingredients you cannot get results. The same goes with the pot. Most assuredly if you cook an empty pot it will eventually crack. Even these days, you cannot cook in an empty pot or a saucepan long enough because you will broke it. So, even if Wuzhenpian does says that, it can be implied, provided you have this experience in your kitchen. Wang Li Ping says the same: “But if someone without enough Qi and Jing of substance to speed up the Yang fire will burn out the inner pot.” Ling Bao Tong Zhi Neng etc., p. 81, I have supressed some words that sound like a weird wording in English. No master have actually showed his power undeniably, perhaps the only one was John Chang, but his way is not neidan and maybe even is harmful for health. I don't understand how it is possible to put the phrase “give free teachings” and Wang Liping in the very near environment, lol. Speaking of what, I don't understand the mantra: “...only be learned after spending a lot more time and money.” I have read it in many posts now. When was different way? We always has to spend time and money and sometimes we waste time and money and feel pride of it, I fail seeing why is so bad to spend time and money in learning neidan (or researching it, if you are not sure about a school). You cannot go always in a sure and comfortable path.

It suggests me some questions, perhaps a little general ones. For starters: What is the place of concepts like "fusion with the Dao" or "reverting to emptiness" in such a scheme? Is the self-mummification referred similar to that of Huineng for instance?

I think that I don't get what you mean: I agree that "false" is a vague category and that from an anthropological point of view if a group claim to be daoist and people around it recognize it as daoist you can include it between daoists, but,on the other hand -from an historical and philosophical point of view-, you can criticize the ties, historical origins, teachings, textual support, development, etc. and conclude that it is not a daoist group despite its claims. No need to go further, somewhere in Colombia (I think) there is a "gnostic" group claiming to be a daoist monastery, and of course it is neither gnostic nor daoist. I think that your criteria for delimiting a category are more dangerous than mine. In that line there is no true schools either. Leaving all that jazz aside, I ask for daoist criteria and as the OP says, I am asking about historical facts or historical debate. If a school is cool and help people -or people believe that- or even if it is effective, it's ok, but I'm asking about true daoist schools (its teachings, texts, etiquette, strata, etc.).

Thanks for the information. As I don't know, I would like to ask some questions: Is it possible to say something about the features of a true school? How to distinguish a false school? What kind of cultivation practice non neidan schools and what are their goals? How is the relation between schools these days? Thanks in advance

A question, what is yangshengong in this context? It seems very much alike to a qigong routine.

I think this is turning a little ad hominen. And about the fees... well, even living in a third world country I don't find the fees (as posted in different Wuliu web pages) high but average. Of course they require a little saving but nothing out of this planet. About the secret... nobody in a lineage discuss the methods with outsiders, and it is fine. Xiao Yao Pai guys only tell experiences and some explanations, Longmen guys (in Wang's school) don't discuss methods, not even the psychological exercises like repentance. This is a problem (or a paradox) in a public forum but it is the same in Buddhism and so on. Perhaps some day we'll reach the same situation as in Buddhism: they publish secret teachings and allow you to purchase the book but with a disclaimer: not to read the book until the proper initiation is given to you. It is a paradox. We have discussed the wenwu concept in another thread and I found the, so called, wu character of Opendao's posts very enlightening, otherwise there would be no way to distinguish so clearly neidan from qigong and I many readers here, me included, would continue thinking that with qigong you can achieve xian status (be it immortality or free spiritual existence). Perhaps it could be a good moment to insist in the opening of a new subforum (like the new of women's cultivation) devoted to discuss alchemy from a technical point of view. Of course, those in lineages will not reveal practices but perhaps could explain the general tenets of their respective schools, q&a threads, etc. And, of course, with the proper textual foundation. And, trying not to be unfair, perhaps another subforum devoted to ritualistic Daoism could be open. I think that we have here some priests and could be interesting a section for discussion different approaches to rituals or its interpretation. Again, lineage could be a problem. I think that in due time there could be the same number of subfora as divisions in the Daozang.

The first time I read about not having dantian was from a Longmen guy. I think that because of that they say “lower field” and not lower elixir field. Besides, I think it is fair to conclude that if one has no dan, then cannot have dantian. Accumulating qi in some region could help to martial qigong but could be damaging too. In fact, I think that qi is like oxygen either gives life or death. The difference between xiantian and houtian is pivotal (using a Chinese wording) and be clear about this in relation to sanbao is basic (although it is hard too) . From these guys too, I read that the microcosmic orbit that you speak is not the real MCO. After that I realized that even some serious qigong teachers don’t call that exercise MCO but rendu circulation. Besides, it is pretty clear that it would be difficult for the qi ascending in the surface du channel to get inside the brain and to produce the regeneration of hair and teeth. So, I cannot see why it is so difficult to accept that some lineages could have different views than the mainstream.

Some questions for all the participants trying to come back to the subjetc of the thread. What is the relation of this ancient culture to shamanism (巫)? When this wen can be considered a coherent whole? Now either in the psychological level or in the neidan level: in the lunghujing it is spoken, besides the warrior and the scholar, about the ruler. The third aphorism says (in Eva Wong's translation): What could be the ruler in this relation wen-wu? Now the last question and I think that perhaps is a little off the topic: is there any relation between the three fires (from the ZhongLü Chuan Dao Ji and the Hui Ming Jing), the fire schedule and the warrior-scholar regulation?

What you say about "a linguistic meaning" is true, but only partially. And you are presenting this as the whole, so it is wrong. It is called "taking the part for the whole" and it is a fallacy. If you insist in it you can be called a sophist. Saying: Is not right because in all languages there are words with different meanings, and a colloquial expression like this (the adjustment of fire for cooking, melting metals, etc.) can be used like an idiom (an accomplishment or level of attainment) or like a technical term in any field, in this case neidan (and the Chinese Health Qigong Association uses it too). To prove this last part: I ask a question and Opendao an answer an then I give a sign of understanding (partial, of course). So from the point of view of the communication it was efficient, we were using the same code, i. e. language. You cannot say that this is wrong (leaving aside the translators and practitioners that use it in the same way). Besides, in a dictionary the are many entries for this expression not just the one you give. I will not abound in this reply, I was even thinking examples in Sanskrit related to the multiple meaning of a word (because it is like Chinese in its polysemic character) or the example of the term gongfu,but this is the way in which a thread is wasted.

If you have a different reading of it you are most welcomed to share it with us, but 火候 is a technical term in neidan and even in the contemporary health qigong. As a metaphor, it derives (probably) from external alchemy, but as today we have electrical ovens we cannot grasp the meaning of a firing schedule (the same happen with the procedures of western alchemy). But I am, personally, more interested in its neidan meaning and in neidan it is a process, and I believe that its actual meaning is not widely known, because some authors identifies it with different kind of breathing patterns and others with awareness patterns.

Yes, because of that the first question was about Daoist thinking, it could be even Daoist psychology, and the other one was about Neidan specifically. I think that could be nice explore the depths of Daoist psychology; but in many instances, what in the western world we call psychology it is deeply interlinked with "somatology" (organs network, etc.), so it leads us to either Neidan or TCM (or its variants). Very interesting. It is very useful always keep in mind the complementarity of opposites within the practice. Of course, the firing schedule. The scholar fire and the warrior fire, and the right moment for applying each one.

Here is a link with a pdf that may help. It is written within the field of gender studies and the study is focused in the Confucian point of view. How is this contemplated in Daoist thinking? And what is its use in neidan?

SHO = Small Heavenly Orbit ¿Why you say that this is Wuliupai? On the contrary, Opendao has stated that in his school it is prohibited to publish practice journals. And this first journal comes from a student in Wang's line.

Please, do it!

I think that this statement sometimes could cause a little of resistance because the western paradigm is that of self-empowered individuals but the eastern has others methodologies. For instance, in the Sufism the sheikh is seen as having all the power and knowledge, so the exercises are done under prescription because the sheikh knows better than the student his inner condition and shortcomings, if the student makes his own arrangements in the discipline, he could increase his problems. Once an insider told me that one of the reasons because of that the disciple is not so much empowered is because the average person develops ambition and pride very early in the path and in order to prevent that, the school tries developing the spiritual aspects in the people before they can develop those mundane aspects. Only after that, the disciple can be empowered but in the meantime he must be "like a corpse" in the hands of the sheik. I'm not saying that this is precisely the reason in neidan but it seems possible, besides, Sufism has much of alchemy in it.

I have the Chinese text and I could see that it includes two more sections: a last chapter of Q&A about expressions and its meaning and an appendix. But my Chinese is very basic now, so I cannot tell if Luk's translation is accurate or not (either from a linguistic point of view or having into account the esoteric meaning of the terms). My intention was to point out that Taoist Yoga was not an oral instruction given to Luk by his master about Xinmingfajuemingzhi but a translation of that book (Xinmingfajuemingzhi), written by Zhao and translated by Luk, and that Q&A is part of the text translated, not a transcription of a conversation between Luk and his master. I hope, in a few years, be able to do a comparison. I posted the link about the other book in order to show that there is one more book translated but I do not consider his explanations better than the traditional ones. In the other book Zhao has made the attempt to match daoists concepts with scientific and anatomical explanations but I don't know if that was a successful attempt.

This is, precisely, the book translated by Luk, with Q&A section included and was written by Zhao Bichen. Here another book with more or less the same contents plus some houtian exercises: http://www.amazon.com/Tratado-Alquimia-y-Medicina-Taoísta/dp/images/8478133755

One of the Heiner Fruehauf's masters is an alchemist and works with salt (among other things). Story has that clinical results are good, the only problem were the lab explanations. Link

I'm aware of that. Zhao Bichen has mixed several methods but some say that his main feature is longmen.As far I know, in longmen (and derived methods) they insist in it (erection stuff), because of that Wang Liping was included. I believe that Wuliupai doesn't insist in that sign as the "birth of yang" and defines "stopping the leakage" in a different way. Thanks, I will try to work with the Wuliuxianzong (with time).

So, a conceptual statement deserves a personal reply... I got it. But, just for the record, as Alchemist said I am not from Wuliupai and don't have any intention to impersonate a disciple of such school. I haven't the knowledge they have about the Daoist Canon and Classical Chinese Language and I only know neidan from English translations. But for me is clear that theirs is a school worthy of investigation, and for me it is more important the facts they provide than a personal sense of comfort based on the attachment to a past training. Run with the Dao is, also, be flexible enough to be aware of our own fantasies and constructs. So, if the mainstream view is that neidan and qigong are the same and must be european-western centered in its interpretation I have to be flexible to think that perhaps there is an alternate view worthy of being investigated and learned. And I think that they have provided plenty of proof about their view of neidan based in classical texts.

The book is http://www.amazon.com/Alchemists-Mediums-Magicians-Stories-Mystics/dp/1590306597 and here some quotes from the Introduction: "Alchemists, Mediums, and Magicians is a collection of sketches from Chinese history portraying more than one hundred of the remarkable individuals associated with exceptional knowledge, uncommon artistry, and spiritual leadership over a period of more than two millennia. Compiled under the title Mystic History by Zhang Tianyu, a Taoist priest in the fourteenth century, this collection introduces a broad range of personalities, professions, and pastimes of China’s esoteric elite, from the most illustrious to the utterly obscure. Among them are people who appear to the world as philosophers and scholars, strategists and statesmen, recluses and courtiers, magicians and mediums, philanthropists and educators, alchemists and physicians, seers and soothsayers, priests and paupers, artists and poets. (...) Alchemists, Mediums, and Magicians features stories from the eleventh century B.C.E. to the thirteenth centuryC.E., following the course of orthodox dynastic history. Seeking to renew a unifying link between the esoteric and exoteric dimensions of traditional Chinese culture, in his introduction Zhang Tianyu invokes the father of Chinese historiography for a working definition of Taoism to outline the design of this collection: The Grand Historian wrote, “Taoism has people’s vital spirit unified, acting appropriately without formality, sufficing all people. As for the practical methods, based on the universal order of yin and yang, taking what is good in Confucianism and Moism, distilling the essences of logic and law, they move with the times, change in response to the concrete, establish customs and carry on business in any way appropriate. The instructions are simple and easy to practice; little is done, but with much effect.”" Besides, his reading and translation of The Secret of the Golden Flower is full of commentaries (not innocent ones) about the social integration of the adept and that the long hours of sitting meditation of zen monks is nothing but an expedient to deal with lazy monks. So, a peaceful demeanour and an heremitic quietism doesn't seem to correspond with the big picture.

I think that the "mindless erection" is a tenet from Longmenpai (and as that is found in Zhao Bichen's books) and in some teachers from Wudanshan. In the line of Wang Liping theres is something called "live hour zi" and seems similar to that. Is the 伍柳仙宗 Wuliuxianzong a good source for studying Wuliu teachings?

Daeluin, I understand your point. I posted my post at the same time than yours, so it was not intended to reply you, only the general course taken by the thread. Of course, a contentious tone arise contention but behind the tone and the subjective reaction there is an interesting message. And I think that it could be a very very valuable one: Neidan is for real, not a legend stop mixing qigong trying to produce neidan results, be aware (and beware) of the difference between xiantian and houtian, etc. Besides, we have to remember that the image of the peaceful daoist is an orientalist construct, Cleary (influenced by his sufi readings) devoted an entire book to the rebuttal of that image, so I see nothing undaoist in being very straightforward and direct. I am not censoring you, honesty transpires in your post, only the conclusion (from earlier posts) that Wuliu guys are bad, scammers and are living in small appartments.