Rainy_Day
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Posts posted by Rainy_Day
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I'm afraid the Henshangong just obscures the truth and doesn't add up. It does not make the connection between things. The whole point of the DDJ is to make the connection between the way humans conduct themselves, the Sages part, and understanding the forces and where they come from. With understanding people can live their lives in accordance to the way things are and have evolved.
Let me give you a very simplified understanding of the first stanza of the DDJ.
Because the way is such an on-going, evolving process that alters its course and its nature accordingly, it is very difficult to say what the way is.
When one tries to name it, it will change through time and become something else.
But the nameless, because we can't describe it or really understand it, we know that it was the mother of all things for it has given birth to all things.
We can though name the the living and non living things around us that it has given birth to.
When we have no desire that is naturally in us, we can begin to sense the great mystery. Here is the reference to spiritual cultivation. When we desire we can see the manifestations of this great energy of creativity. Both come from the way, we can perceive one but the other we can only sense and feel in our hearts. Reference again to spiritual practice.
This path of knowing the one but feeling and sensing the other is the beginning of sensing the deep mystery of creativity.
I believe the problem with my translation is that I'm not familiar with the context of the entire Heshanggong commentary - For instance, I'm not familiar with the cosmological assumptions behind it. The Heshanggong commentary and the Xiang'er commentary have historically been deeply influential within the Daoist religion. Several Daoist studies scholars (who are also initiated practitioners themselves) speak highly of it.
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Okay, I found two articles (in Chinese) which touch upon chapter 1 of the Heshanggong commentary. (6) and (7) still remain deeply obscure to me, however.
http://www.laozitiandi.com/laozishidu/daojiasixiang/2050.html
http://www.chinataoism.org/showtopic.php?id=9074&cate_id=1106
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Found another article about the Heshanggong commentary:
http://www.360doc.com/content/11/1105/21/3670961_162090724.shtml
This seems most complete. I'll read this and then get back to you.
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As for your view that we have to take gods and spirits into the religious explanation of Daodejing, because religious Daoists often do rituals to appease or communicate with gods and spirits, my view is:
(1) Religious Daoism does talk about gods and spirits, but these are understood with reference to the main goal of self-cultivation. For instance, in the Shangqing tradition, the body is seen as a microcosm of the world, and those gods and spirits which exist outside of the body have their correspondences within the body. (In this way, the Shangqing tradition and many other forms of Daoism are quite different from Classical Paganism in the West.)
(2) There are some streams of Daoism which are really into communicating with spirits. However, this is preconditioned on the fact that the practitioner has done the work of self-cultivation (e.g. the many forms of Daoist magic which presuppose neidan work).
(3) It is my belief that Laozi, Zhuangzi, and other classical Daoists are about transcendence - including practical cultivation techniques for transcendence - and it is this emphasis on transcendence which marks classical Daoism as religious.
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Okay, translating the last part of the commentary on the Heshanggong commentary (third link above; I can't copy and paste for some reason):
By "mystery", Laozi meant "Heaven". Both people with and without desire received yin and yang vapour from Heaven.
There is Heaven within Heaven. When people receive yin and yang vapour, there are distinctions as to quality. Once they receive the nourishment of centrality and harmony, then they will produce wise and sagely thoughts. If they receive chaotic and filthy vapour, then they will produce greedy and licentious thoughts.
If one understands that there is Heaven within Heaven, and that yin and yang vapour may come in different qualities, then one should get rid of excessive emotions and desires and guard the way of centrality and harmony - This is the way to obtain the Way. Here, the commentary refers to centrality and harmony. Centrality and harmony are the main content of the Confucian doctrine of centrality and constancy. "The Doctrine of the Mean" says, "Centrality refers to before the expression of emotions. Harmony refers to hitting the mark when expressed. Centrality is the great root of all under Heaven. Harmony is the most perfect way under Heaven. If one reaches centrality and harmony, then Heaven and Earth are correctly positioned, and ten thousand things are nourished." What this means is...[i actually disagree with her translation here, but whatever]...For Daoists, centrality and harmony also refer to the original qi. "The Method to Harmonise the Three Qi and make Emperors and Kings flourish" of "The Classic of Supreme Peace" says, "Greater yang, greater yin, centrality and harmony are three names for the original qi."
Hmm...Well, my view now is that to understand the Heshanggong commentary, one must first understand its metaphysical context. I must say I don't understand it right now.
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First of all, I still don't know how do you interpret the DDJ. Secondly, in reality, there are Taoist religious practitioners do appeasing or seem to be communicating with these spirits which cannot be ignored in this discussion.
With respect to Daodejing, I can't really offer any comment at the moment, because I have not sufficiently studied this area. I'm vaguely aware that modern scholars divide the text into several strata, sometimes rearranging the text according to various speculative schemes. I'm also aware that there is an increasingly common view that Neiye preceded Daodejing but spoke on the same issues, and so Daodejing should be interpreted with reference to it. (I have not read Neiye and hence can't comment on it.) There is also a view that Heshanggong's commentary is closer to the original tradition, Wang Bi's "philosophical" commentary arising only after the general culture has forgotten the original mythological context of ancient China...Roughly speaking, this is my view of it.
If I have to give an interpretation of Daodejing, I would say I subscribe to Heshanggong's explanation, e.g. longevity and rulership - with the caveat that humans, society, and the universe are constructed along the same model and reflect each other structurally. (I haven't read the Heshanggong commentary. I merely know some descriptions of it from scholarly sources.)
Below are my summary of the chapter 1 of the Heshanggong commentary, followed by a rough translation.
(1) The Heshanggong commentary begins by defining what is not the Constant Way: the way of management and governance, especially methods derived from the Confucian Classics. Then, it defines what is not the Constant Name: mundane aspirations such as riches and nobility.
(2) The Constant Way refers to non-action. The Constant Name refers to the moment before expression - This in turn implies that one should keep one's light to oneself without revealing it.
(3) The Nameless gives rise to the Named. The Nameless is so called, because it is formless. The Named refers to Heaven and Earth, symbolising dichotomous attributes such as yang and yin, softness and hardness. (Due to the reference to vapour, this explanation is metaphysical (e.g. the actual structure of the world) rather than conceptual (e.g. logical propositions).)
(4) With desire and without desire are methods to observe the Way. (The presupposition here is that the Named and the Nameless form one entity - the Nameless being the root of the Named. By being without desire, one observes the essence of the Way - the oneness from which everything flows. By being with desire, one observes the destination to which everything flows.)
(5) How the world unfolds to us depends on our heart. With desire, however, one perishes, while without desire, one lives.
(6) We receive vapour from Heaven, but each person receives a different endowment of vapour.
(7) The way to arrive at the essence of the Way is to remove desire.
*I must say - How the commentary derived (6) and (7) is obscure to me.
Heshanggong Commentary and Translation
河上公章句卷一
体道第一
道可道，
谓经术政教之道也。
The way which can be spoken
The way which can be spoken refers to the way of management and governance.
非常道。
非自然生长之道也。常道当以无为养神，无事安民，含光藏晖，灭迹匿端，不可称道。
is not the constant Way
E.g. not the way of naturalness and growth. The constant Way is to nourish spirit by leaving off action, to pacify the people by leaving off affairs, to contain one's light and store up one's radiance, and to erase one's tracks and hide one's signs - This Way is so great it cannot be praised or spoken of.
名可名，
谓富贵尊荣，高世之名也。
The name which can be named
Name here refers to riches, nobility, respect, and glory - the reputation of towering above the world.
非常名。
非自然常在之名也。
常名当如婴儿之未言，鸡子之未分，明珠在蚌中，美玉处石间，内虽昭昭，外如愚顽。
is not the constant name.
E.g. not a natural and abiding name.
The constant name is like the moment before a baby speaks, or before an egg hatches. It is like a bright pearl within a clam, or a beautiful jade between rocks. Despite the brightness within, it appears foolish and stubborn without.
无名，天地之始。
无名者谓道，道无形，故不可名也。
始者道本也，吐气布化，出于虚无，为天地本始也。
The nameless is the beginning of Heaven and Earth.
Nameless here means the Way. The Way is formless. Hence, it cannot be named.
Beginning means the root of the Way. It exhales, distributes and transforms vapour out of emptiness and nothingness. It is the root and beginning of Heaven and Earth.
有名，万物之母。
有名谓天地。
天地有形位、有阴阳、有柔刚，是其有名也。
万物母者，天地含气生万物，长大成熟，如母之养子也。
The named is the mother of ten thousand things.
Named here means Heaven and Earth.
Heaven and Earth have form and place. They are distinguished by yin and yang, and softness and hardness. Hence, they are named.
They are the mother of ten thousand things, because they contain vapour to give birth to ten thousand things and cause them to grow and ripe - much like a mother raising her son.
故常无欲，以观其妙；
妙，要也。
人常能无欲，则可以观道之要，要谓一也。
一出布名道，赞叙明是非。
Hence, in order to observe its wonderfulness, one remains constantly without desire.
Wonderfulness here means its essence.
If a person can remain constantly without desire, then he can observe the essence of the Way - essence here meaning oneness.
From oneness, the way of names is distributed, in order to assist ordering and clarifying right and wrong.
常有欲，以观其徼。
徼，归也。
常有欲之人，可以观世俗之所归趣也。
In order to its border, one remains constantly with desire.
Border here refers to aim.
A person who remains constantly with desire can observe the aim of the world*.
*e.g. the ways and desires of common men.
此两者，同出而异名，
两者，谓有欲无欲也。
同出者，同出人心也。而异名者，所名各异也。
名无欲者长存，名有欲者亡身也。
These two things have the same origin, though they differ in name.
The two things refer to being with and without desire.
They have the same origin, because they both come from the human heart. They have different names, because they refer to different things.
Those things to which "without desire" refers will long be preserved. Those things to which "with desire" refers will perish.
同谓之玄，
玄，天也。
言有欲之人与无欲之人，同受气于天也。
The two things are both called "mysterious".
Mystery refers to Heaven.
This means that people with desire and people without desire both receive vapour from Heaven.
玄之又玄，
天中复有天也。
禀气有厚薄，得中和滋液，则生贤圣，得错乱污辱，则生贪淫也。
Mystery upon mystery
There is Heaven within Heaven.
The endowment of vapour can be thick or thin*. If a person receives a moderate and harmonious, then he becomes a wise man or a sage. If a person receives chaotic filth, then he becomes greedy and excessive*.
*e.g. different qualities of vapour.
*e.g. excessive sexual desires.
众妙之门。
能之天中复有天，禀气有厚薄，除情去欲守中和，是谓知道要之门户也。
The door of myriad wonderfulness.
To understand that there is Heaven within Heaven, and that endowment of vapour comes in different qualities, and then remove emotions and desires in order to guard moderation and harmony, is called the door to knowing the essence of the Way.
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Rainy_Day...
What I'm getting at is that the people who study the DDJ as a philosophy do not worship any god as the Taoist religion practitioners do.
Yes, but are you sure that the "philosophical" reading of the Daodejing actually came before the "religious" reading? (Each person can, of course, read the text however he wants. I assume the question here is "What is the original meaning of the Daodejing".)
In any case, I believe that even a "religious" reading of the Daodejing does not necessarily involve the worship of gods. My personal view is that while the early Daoists believed that gods and spirits exist, their main goal was self-cultivation rather than appeasing or communicating with these spirits.
There is a shamanic substrate to the Daodejing, but ultimately the goal of the Daodejing is self-cultivation rather than communicating with spirits.
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Thank you for your compliment. Without going into a big argument, I do see some bias in your written statements. However, when you say Taoism, I don't know if you have 道家 or 道教 in mind. You see most westerners are mixing them up by using just one term "Taoism". To explain Taoism, it would be more explicit to express in Chinese.
I remember, I had asked you to translate Chapter 1 in your own words. If you had done so, then it would give me an opportunity to see how you view the DDJ.
People have to decide either using the DDJ to study the Tao philosophy or use it as dogma to create a Tao religion. It has to be one way or the other but not both.
Yes, but I subscribe to the view that the distinction between Daojia and Daojiao is artificial, e.g. Both Zhuangzi and later Daoists (e.g. religious Daoism) shared the same goals of transcendence, even if their techniques were different.
I believe this is a common view in western Daoist Studies. There are also some Chinese scholars who agree with this view. (I don't know how mainstream it is.)
Have you read "Daoism, an Introduction" by Ronnie L. Littlejohn? I found it to be a most enlightening book.
I quote: "One way of thinking about whether to label Daoism as a philosophy or as a religion is to follow the scholar Isabelle Robinet (1997) and consider 'religious Daoism' the practice of 'philosophical Daoism'. A growing repository of new discoveries about ancient Chinese texts, practices and artifacts have led scholars to appreciate more fully the dynamics of change and continuity in Daoist tradition and to conclude that this division between philosophical and religious Daoism is false and without merit. Indeed, to continue to make this distinction will systematically mislead us in our interpretations." (p.2)
I also quote: "Daoism is the spiritual tradition at the root of Chinese civilization. It defies characterization as either a philosophy or religion. In fact, while these terms have been used by Western and Chinese scholars alike to understand Daoism, such categorization has regrettably only distorted the tradition, twisted it and perverted it by making it fit into conceptual modes to which it can conform only at the cost of its own destruction. Admittedly, until very recently it was common to speak of 'philosophical Daoism' (daojia) and 'religious Daoism' (daojiao), suggesting that the former was transformed into the latter or replaced by it. Western scholars did not begin this distinction, but the simple fact that Chinese commentators used it does not make it an accurate or productive way of approaching Daoism. Scholars today know things about Daoism and its origin that even the great Chinese thinkers of the past did not know. Some Chinese thinkers even had an interest in altering or reconstructing the Daoist tradition that they received..." (p.1-2)
A large part of the book relates to how Laozi and Zhuangzi do in fact relate to the greater Daoist tradition. I highly recommend it.
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Speaking of shamanism...
It is true that Daoism is rooted in shamanism and has had continuous interaction with shamanism up to the present day. It is also true that many Daoist practices are in essence shamanic.
The problem, however, of talking about Daoist shamanism is that most Daoist texts and traditions in fact reject the label of shamanism. This is because most Daoist movements, such as the Celestial Masters, were essentially new religious movements (of their times). They needed to differentiate themselves from existing religious practices.
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There are an awful lot of "if's" here Rainy_Day. The trouble is all of these differing faiths have sometimes wildly differing views on the nature of the world.
The reason I follow the Taoist path is that it gives me a practical path that provides concrete results. But I see myself as a practical Taoist rather than a religious one. I want verifiable results rather than relying on blind faith.
This could well be true but the vast majority of the worlds population go through life thoughtless of the results of their actions in this world, never mind the unseen world. Hence the state we are getting ourselves into with climate change etc.
For this reason I endeavor to raise my level of consciousness in the now as it is here and now that we can make the most certain progress.
I can respect that you want to follow a "practical path". This is actually one reason why I want to study Daoism, too, because with qigong and neidan, you can actually verify the results for yourself.
I guess I'm just of a more religious mentality. I'm okay with taking things on faith, even if I'm not ready to verify them as of yet. Plus, I'm interested in things like rituals and prayers, which must be explained with reference to the unseen world.
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Dear ChiDragon,
To begin, I have to say that I'm deeply impressed by your dedication to studying Daoism - for instance, the serious effort you're undertaking to understand the Daodejing.
I have to give a contrary opinion, however.
It's true that many Chinese scholars believe that the Daodejing is atheist. However, you have to understand the cultural context they're speaking from. The thing is that Chinese philosophy, as a category, is a modern invention. It was invented after the New Culture movement (an anti-traditionalist movement), because it was felt that a country is dishonoured by not having some sort of philosophical heritage. Therefore, a group of scholars came together to create "Chinese philosophy" as an explicit counterweight to western philosophy. At that time, the discourse-makers of China were all westernised scholars, who believed in things like social darwinism, scientific materialism, etc. Basically, things which were already in vogue in the West. As a result, even though the scholars who participated in "Chinese philosophy" represented a countertrend, trying to revive "Chinese culture" against the overwhelming influence of "western thought", they were inevitably influenced by these trends.
Anyway, to cut to the chase,
(1) Chinese philosophy is an artificial category created during the modern era.
(2) In ancient China, there wasn't really anything analogous to modern western philosophy, except maybe Mohist logic.
(3) Chinese scholars are influenced by their own modernist biases. (Okay, this is the really important point - Chinese scholars are often deeply under the sway of modernism. They believe that for Chinese culture to be acceptable to the world, it must be "modernised". Consciously or unconsciously, therefore, they read ancient Chinese classics with a bias, seeking modern elements where none exists.)
Personally, as a Chinese person, I believe in western scholars of Daoist studies far more than Chinese scholars of Chinese philosophy. The work is just so much better quality. (I don't believe in western scholars of Chinese philosophy either, however. I read Chinese scholars of Daoist studies, but I usually disagree with their point of view, because they don't seem to believe in Daoism in the first place. A lot of western scholars of Daoist studies are Daoist practitioners in their own right, which increases my respect for them.)
My understanding of the current western Daoist Studies position is that the Daodejing originated from an oral tradition of cultivation - the same tradition which gave birth to Neiye. The different passages were originally proverbs or common sayings in this tradition and was only later synthesised into a whole. Some passages were added way later.
Of course, one may also subscribe to the religious explanation, which would depend on which Daoist sect one belongs to.
Another alternative is to subscribe to the perennialist explanation (e.g. Rene Guenon and people). While I deeply respect Rene Guenon, to accept the perennialist explanation would require the adoption of such an "alternative" worldview, that I'm not ready to do so.
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I do not spend too much time either thinking or worrying about any afterlife. The disciplines I follow are designed to reduce the amount of time I think about the past and the future so that I can simply be in the now.
Thoughts on life after death, heaven and dare I say hell are conjecture. Better to live and act whilst there is breathe in your body than to spend time thinking of what it will be like after your death.
I agree that one should not spend too much time thinking about the past or the future. But the fact is that a person's choices in life are hugely influenced by what he believes about the nature of the world.
For instance, if Evangelical Christianity is true, then one should accept Jesus Christ as his personal saviour. If Theravada is true, then one should become a monk (since the human form is so precious, and we should strive for liberation within our lifetime). If Tibetan Buddhism is true, then it would pay enormous dividends to find a good phowa practitioner. If atheism is true, then it doesn't really matter what we do, (at least not until we create meaning for ourselves).
Personally, I believe that each person's actions produce effects, not only in this world but also in the unseen world. This has made a lasting influence upon me, because I would also believe that even if I don't see the fruits of my actions right away, their effects are stored somewhere in the universe. This gives me more freedom to do the right thing, because I wouldn't care as much if I lose out in the short term.
Furthermore, there are so many things in our daily lives which are dependent upon our particular beliefs about the unseen world. For instance, making offerings and praying to one's ancestors are preconditioned on the belief that one's ancestors are somewhere out there.
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Hi everyone!
I'm kind of curious - What do folks here think about the afterlife?
I'll go first: I personally believe that each human contains several souls. These several souls travel to different places upon death. I believe this, because virtually all ancient cultures (before the rise of organised religion) said so. Daoism also says so, as does Mongolian shamanism (which I became deeply impressed with after reading Sarangerel's explanation of it).
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Come on, guys, no need to fight over this.
There are other texts which explain the same tradition in far greater detail. We can look them up to determine who is right later.
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问：三花聚顶？答曰：神气精混而为一也。玄关一窍乃神气精之穴也。
Question: What does "the three flowers gathering at the top" mean?
Answer: It means when the spirit, the qi, and the essence mix into one. The opening of the mysterious gate is the cavern of the spirit, the qi, and the essence.
问：五气朝元？答曰：五藏真气上朝于天元也。
Question: What does "the five qi paying homage to the origin" mean?
Answer: The zhen qi of the five organs travel upward to pay homage at the heavenly origin.
问：和合四象？答曰：眼不视而魂在肝，耳不闻而精在肾，舌不动而神在心，鼻不嗅而魄在肺，精神魂魄聚于意土也。
Question: What does "the four symbols of harmony and combination" mean?
Answer: The eyes do not see, and the hun is in the liver. The ears do not hear, and the essence is in the kidneys. The tongue does not move, and the spirit is in the heart. The nose does not smell, and the po is in the lungs. In other words, the essence, the spirit, the hun, and the po gather at the earth of intention.*
*Is there a typo here? What is "yitu"?
问曰：马牙、真主人、神符、白雪？答曰：皆铅汞之总名也。
Question: What are "the horse's tooth", "the true master", "the divine talisman", and "the white snow"?
Answer: These are all names for lead and mercury together.
问：河车？答曰：北方正气名曰河车，左曰日轮，右曰月轮，搬负正气，运藏元阳，应节顺行，下手无非此车之力。
Question: What is the river carriage?
Answer: The correct qi of the North is called the river carriage. Its left is called the sun wheel. Its right is called the moon wheel. Carrying the correct qi, transporting and storing the original yang, travelling the natural course in accordance with the seasons - Applying oneself to cultivation is none other than the force of this carriage.
问曰：老嫩何也？答曰：采药之时，审其老嫩。彭鹤林曰：嫩时须采，老时枯。紫阳曰：铅见癸生须急采，金逢望远不堪尝，是也。
Question: What is oldness and tenderness?
Answer: When collecting the medicine, examine whether it's old or tender. Peng Helin said, "Collect when tender, because it withers when old. Ziyang said, "When the lead is born at the hour of kui, collect quickly. When metal is...(passage unclear to me)..."
More than half way done the literal draft! I believe, however, the real work will be sorting out the actual meaning of the text.
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Dear tccii,
Thank you for your suggestions. I'll definitely check out Robinet and Pregadio's books. Maybe tonight or this weekend, I'll read "Interpreting the Ancient Codes". (Right now, I'm just treating this translation as a learning experience.)
Feel free to comment when you see mistakes in my translation.
Dear ChiDragon,
Thank you for annotating that portion.
Btw, I figured out the obscure part of that portion. The original Chinese version I used was missing a word. It actually goes:
问曰：何谓候？答曰：五日为一候，是甲子一终也。日有十二时，五日六十时，终一甲子也。紫阳曰：一刻之功夫，自有一年之节候，以起火之际，顷刻一周天。
是甲子一终也 makes perfect sense, whereas the version I got before, e.g. 是甲为一终也, is just confusing.
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There are other portions of the original Chinese version which seem corrupted. It's missing a portion on "returning seven times".
Instead of
问曰：“何谓九还？”
答曰：“金生数四，成数九。还者，自上而还下，九乃老阳之数。阴真君曰：‘从寅至申为七返。’亦迹上也。”
It should be
问曰：何谓九还？答曰：金生四，成数九。还者，自上而还下。九乃老阳之数。阴真君曰：从子至申为九还，亦顺下也。
问曰：何谓七返？答曰：火生二，成数七。返者，自下而返上。七乃少阳之数，阴真君曰：从寅至申为七返，亦逆上也。
(At least I assume it should be. Maybe you would be able to verify this for me?)
Question: What does "returning nine times" mean?
Answer: Metal is four by birth, but nine by completion. To return (huan2) means to return downward from above. Nine is the number of old yang. Yinzhen Jun said, "From zi to shen is returning nine times - This is following the natural course downward."
Question: What does "coming back seven times" mean?
Answer: Fire is two by birth, but seven by completion. To come back (fan3) means to come back up from below. Seven is the number of young yang. Yinzhen Jun said, "From yin to shen is coming back seven times - This is going up by opposing the natural course."
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Another portion in which the original version I used was wrong:
问曰：何谓内三要？答曰：第一要太渊池也。第二要绛宫也。第三要地户也。
(This is the correct version on the inner three necessities.)
The second necessity is crimson palace.
zdic says,
(2).道教称心为绛宫。《黄庭内景经·若得章》“重中楼阁十二环” 梁丘子 注：“谓喉咙十二环，相重在心上。心为絳宫，有象楼阁者也。”
In Daoism, the heart is known as the crimson palace.
Anyway, this is now the version I'm using: http://www.daoism.cc/dandao/fdjd/xzss/jddcj2.htm
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Rainy_Day...
Thank you for your interest to have my collaboration. I do interested in cooperating with your translation. However, due to the time consumption involve per your request, it is utterly impossible for me to put my time elsewhere.
If you don't mind, I would like to just jump right into where ever I see some discrepancies and discuss it with you. How is that sound...???...
Dear ChiDragon,
That sounds great.
Btw, I figured out the problem with some of the obscure passages earlier - The Chinese original I was using has a lot of typos. A better one is:
or
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Answer: "The metallic fluid is know as "metallic water", the fetus hidden in the mother's womb. Hence, it is the sign of returning the elixir. The ancient sage said, dan means "dan tian". Fluid means the fluids of the lung, let the fluids of the lung return to the dan tian. Therefore, it was said that "the metallic fluid returns to the dan tian."
Thank you for this.
Would you like to collaborate on this translation?
If you would like to collaborate, we can chat over msn, qq, or phone to pin down the exact meaning of each passage.
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I am not really seeing any interpretation for the text presented so far... it is simply a literal translation without any inner alchemy meaning applied... I'll take a guess at a few:
金 = gold = metal [is found in water] = precious = innate nature [flow]
金液 = golden liquid = valuable water = precious saliva = innate natures path
母 = mother = Qi
子胎 = egg = son = Shen
水母 = water mother = water of life (from mother for son) = life for Shen
金为水母 = metal acts in water mother = metal is mother of water = innate nature generates life for Shen
母隐子胎 = mother conceals the original egg = Qi reveals the Shen = Qi nourishes Shen
金液还丹 = golden liquid returns to the elixir = innate nature returns to Dao
I believe that you're correct in that the "golden liquid" refers to saliva. I found an explanation on Baidu, but I'm not fully convinced of it as yet.
Thank you for your explanation. My plan was to make a literal translation first, and then get the knowledgeable people of this forum together to create an annotated version. However, feel free to jump in and add your wisdom at any time.
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ChiDragon,
I believe the best course of action would be to translate the relevant sections of the Heshanggong and Wang Bi commentary, and then let you decide.
Scotty,
Yes, I intend to translate "Lingbao Bifa" eventually. Just let me get warmed up on some easier stuff first.
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On a previous thread, I said I wanted to try my hands at translating some Daoist texts: http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/22412-anyone-need-translations-of-daoist-texts/.
I'm going to start with "Questions and Answers on the Golden Elixir" (金丹问答), because it seems to present the least problems for translating, and because it seems quite useful.
The Chinese original can be found here: http://www.danxin.net/jingdian/%E9%87%91%E4%B8%B9%E9%97%AE%E7%AD%94.htm.
I'll do some translating every now and then, and post the results on this thread. Please correct or criticise as appropriate. (I'm not a neidan practitioner myself. I can only give what I believe to be an accurate translation according to my knowledge of Classical Chinese.) Also, feel free to make any suggestions.
Also, please note that everything posted here is a work in progress. I'll edit the draft as I go along.
Part 1 of Draft
金丹问答
萧廷之
Questions and Answers on the Golden Elixir
By Xiao Tingzhi
问曰：“如何谓之金液还丹？”
答曰：“金液者，金水也。金为水母，母隐子胎。因有还丹之号也。前贤有曰，丹者，丹田也。液者，肺液也。以肺液还于丹田，故曰‘金液还丹。’”
Question: What does "returning the metallic liquid to the elixir" mean?
Answer: Metallic liquid means metallic water. Metal is the mother of water. The mother hides the fetus of her child. Hence, the name of "returning to the elixir". Prior generations of wise men have said, "Elixir refers to the elixir field. Liquid refers to the liquid of the lungs. One returns the liquid of the lungs to the elixir field. Therefore, we call this "returning the metallic liquid to the elixir".
问曰：“何谓铅汞？”
答曰：“非凡黑锡水银也。真一子曰：‘铅是天地之父母，阴阳之根基。’盖圣有采天地，父母之根，而为大药之基。采阴阳纯粹之精，而为大丹之质。且非常物造作也。汞性好飞，遇铅乃结，以其子母相恋也。”
Question: What does one mean by "lead" and "mercury"?
Answer: These do not refer to common metal, such as tin and mercury. The Master of True Unity says, "Lead is the parent of Heaven and Earth, and the foundation of yin and yang." For Sages collect the root of Heaven and Earth, and Father and Mother, in order to create the foundation of the great medicine. One collects the pure essence of yin and yang, in order to create the substance of the great elixir - This is different from the creation of common things. Mercury's nature is to like to fly, but it bonds with lead when they meet, due to the love between the son and the mother.
问曰：“何谓火？”
答曰：“火者，太阳真气，乃坎中之阳也。紫清真人曰：‘坎中起火’是也。”
Question: What does "fire" mean?
Answer: Fire is the true qi of greater yang - the yang in the middle of kan*. This is what the True Man of Purple Clarity meant by "start the fire in the middle of kan".
*as in the trigram.
问曰：“何谓候？”
答曰：“五日为一候，是甲为一终也。日有十二时，五日六十时，终一甲子也。紫阳曰：‘一刻之工夫，自有一年之节候。’以起火之际，顷刻而一周天也。”
Question: What does "hou" mean?
Answer: One hou is five days...(not clear on this part)*...One day has twelve hours; five days have sixty hours - This completes one jiazi*. The Master of Purple Yang said, "The work of one quarter-hour contains the seasons and climate of a year." Starting from when one starts the fire, a microcosmic orbit is completed in a moment.
*tentatively, "Its jia is the completion of one cycle."
*A unit in Chinese calendrical calculations, which is subdivided into sixty parts.
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The Dao De Jhing is a shamanistic treatise
in Daodejing
Posted · Edited by Rainy_Day
Ah, I see that you and Dawei have already discussed this topic, including the Heshanggong commentary, in depth on another forum.
Well, I must say that my level of understanding is way below you two. My background is actually in Confucianism, e.g. the Four Books. My understanding of Classical Daoism is extremely shallow, but I do tend to believe certain Daoist Studies scholars - For me, reading Kristofer Schipper's explanation of Daoism was deeply enlightening.
Would you be able to explain why Heshanggong translated "mystery" as "Heaven"?
......
Okay， I actually found it: Apparently, 《释言》 says 玄，天也。
I must say, though, I don't get why Heshanggong used this definition here.
愿君不吝赐教！不佞则感激涕零。