Mendelssohn

Yes but the hidden factor here is the amount of energy you have. If too much masturbation then less energy to go to the mind to control your self. And with less energy available the harder it is to break or change a habit. So it's a vicious cycle and a catch 22 and the most effective thing that can be done is to stop and then think, reevaluate, and redirect.

 

As a related but more extreme example, diabetics can appreciate this hidden energy factor. Without this energy everything shuts down. In masturbation, when you reach that similar stage and be forced to seek a solution then the damage has already been done.

I have heard this being said before by people involved in yoga. I am hoping you will not mind that I am very skeptical of it. What you are saying should be based in science. All that we do requires energy, but it is human nature to use energy, and in doing that we build up our reserves for more energy. If you do a cardiovascular exercise every day you will eventually have more energy to expel, for example. Really, to have more energy the focus should be in eating healthy, exercise, good sleep, and also reducing anxiety. I have not seen any evidence to show that masturbation is anything special in this regard, that it deprives us of energy. I would like to see evidence if you have any. Also, using just my speculation, I think masturbation would really give you more energy if it was done in a simple, natural way, because otherwise a person will be making a big effort to fight off the urges, which could cause anxiety, when it's really a simple fix and just some thrusts of the hand; not a big deal at all. If you don't do it you will just ejaculate in your sleep sometimes anyway, and it won't be as restful. Every study I have seen, in fact I just read one, say that it's good for the brain and it doesn't have any proven negative side effects, unless it's done excessively, or it's just a product of a mental disorder that already exists. Sorry for the disorganized thoughts. =)

-Mendelssohn

Well said, Lotus. I understand exactly what you're saying, although I'm sure I have a long way to go =)

Hmmm....

 

"Your focus determines your reality" - Qui-Gon Jinn, Star Wars Episode I

 

I've been masturbating my whole life. Like.... since I was four. It never caused me to have any problems. Ever. I'd usually ejaculate about 3 times per session, with about two or three sessions a day (right before I went to sleep, and when I work up, or else walk around with a huge erection for fifteen minutes every morning). Some days I'd do more, some days I'd do less, depending on what my body needed. It was very natural. If I was really tired before I went to sleep, I wouldn't do it. If I was having sex with a partner, I'd usually do it less (as I had an outlet). If I was super worked up, and couldn't got to sleep, I'd do a bit more.

 

At the age of 18 I started to get into methods which were big on this "protecting the essence" and whatever associated with masturbation. Decided that, for the betterment of my cultivation, I'd have to stop. Didn't ever try to burn my penis off, but I did do that rubber band trick that you recommended in another thread.

 

Well this went on for almost a year, me trying to stop. Got to a point where I'd about almost tore my hand off with the rubber band I started to exhibit obsessive compulsive behavior, not only with my mind, my sex thoughts, and my rubber band, but also with other things in general, such as opening and closing doors, counting repetitive actions, and things like that. I knew I was REALLY messed up when I started to become obsessive about hand washing (because that is a well known OCD type thing- I knew counting was too, but I considered hand washing the next level).

 

So then I figured that since I was obsessed and determined for masturbation and sex, I'd try semen retention and whatever. Well had a couple of scares with that, so decided to stop (and I don't suggest anyone do it either).

 

The point is, I NEVER had a problem with masturbation or energy or anything before in my life. It was a natural part of my day. I had discovered it naturally, did it when I needed to, and if I didn't need to, I wouldn't do it.

 

Problems started when I was TOLD "masturbation wastes energy", "you are losing your essence", "you are stimulating lust". Before, I'd do it when I needed to. After, the focus of my entire day for most of a year was about whatever was going down in my genitals! It was crazy!

 

So then I said screw it. If I want to have sex, I'm going to have sex. If I want to masturbate, I am going to masturbate.

 

I am much healthier now.

 

I am much happier now.

 

I am much more energetic now.

 

Maybe I'm just a super stud. Maybe I will burn out when I hit 25.

 

But as of now, my suggestion is DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT. The more you bother about it, the more it will bother you.

 

You will go through a lot less pain, a lot less anguish, and you will lose a lot LESS energy if you stop thinking about it, and listen to what your body actually needs.

 

Also, intrusive thoughts are nothing new, or unnatural. We have thoughts about everything at all parts of the day. Our minds are powerful, and can think about more than we can consciously keep up with. If you get a hang up every time you think about sex, if you smack your wrist or burn your dick, every time you think about sex, you are GOING to be doing it CONSTANTLY. Because instead of dropping it and moving on, as you would normally do, you focus it and give it an inordinate amount of power. More than it'd normally have (that is to say, none).

 

At least, that was my experience. If you're the type of person like me, who gets pretty obsessive in general, who goes balls to the wall, who is really determined to cut out all sexual thoughts, and is really vigilant about every time something remotely sexual happens, you are going to inadvertently CAUSE more connections with sex in your mind than you are stopping (because instead of thinking "think spiritual" you are saying "don't think about sex", and your focus will still be on sex!)

 

So, yeah, that's just my experience. It bothers me that there is a fixation upon sexuality (or rather, not being sexual) when it comes to sexuality. Because, in my opinion, it tells people they have a problem when, most of the time, they really don't. It gives them a problem that they have to fix before moving on. And it makes it so that they can NEVER move on. Especially if they are a teenager with raging hormones going on anyway- then you are guaranteed to fail. Especially if you live in modern, media driven society, dominated by pictures of attractive, mostly naked women in advertisements.

 

Anyway, I think that's long enough.

 

The strict stopping methods might work for you. For me, they caused more problems than they fixed. And to be honest, there was never even a problem with me to begin with.

 

I just felt compelled to write this. To let anyone willing to read all of that know.

 

So have at it (whatever you decide to do).

I agree with you, Zhang. It's all about what going on in your mind, not what you do on the outside. If you can do it innocently, and naturally, as you feel like it then it's no problem at all. However, sometimes when an impure mind attempts masturbation it can effect the mind, it can be obsessive and lustful, or if you learned its bad from childhood you can always feel a sense of guilt afterwards. I am like you, I do it innocently, but there are other things I cannot do in that way! Like romantic love, if I let myself then it will completely consume me, like a black cloud is hovering over my head, so to let myself think clearly and continue being spontaneous and free, I have to restrain myself or it will be a weight on my mind. Maybe for some it is the same for masturbation? It's better to just know yourself and know how things effect you and what poisons your mind, rather than just do what everyone else does. Those are my random, unorganized thoughts on the topic =)

I am trying to learn Felix Mendelssohn's Prelude and Fugue in e minor, op. 35 no. 1. (just the fugue half for now). One of my favourite pieces. Very beautiful and intense =).

There aren't really any good versions on youtube. I have better one's on CDs, but this one is alright:

I agree with you there. At the same time I do understand how having a familiarity and understanding of cultural, social, and language factors can have a big impact on how we interpret things.

 

For example, I'm not a native Chinese speaker but I do some translation for my Shifu and it's fascinating to see the differences in how the Chinese and American mind work based on the structure of language.

I don't want to get into it too much but the nature of alphabetical for symbological writing has a profound affect on how we approach meaning. Cultural and social factors can have similar impact on how we interpret and percieve things. I'm guessing that is Miro's point, at least in part.

Miro - please correct me if I'm wrong.

Okay. That's understandable. To introduce someone to the main ideas and things like that maybe cultural things are necessary as a gateway into meditation and more serious practice. That makes sense! Different things are necessary to communicate to people in different cultures to get the main ideas across. Thanks a lot. I didn't look at it this way before =)

I'm going to agree with everyone.

 

Philosophy literally means "love of wisdom" but more generally can be defined as an approach to understanding the general and fundamental questions and problems associated with existence. This doesn't mean that the understanding must be limited to verbal and intellectual understanding.

 

Zhuang Zi tries to teach us wisdom. He also helps us to approach the fundamental problems and questions of existence.

As Miro says, you cannot understand Zhuang Zi fully if you simply approach him intellectually or analytically.

To take that a step further, I'll say that you cannot understand Daoism if you simply approach it intellectually or analytically. Western philosophers have tended toward and intellectual approach in general, so we tend to think of philosophers as intellectuals. Eastern philosophers are sometimes intellectual (Confucius) and sometimes more experiential (Zhuang Zi) and sometimes both (Lao Zi).

 

So I have no problem referring to Zhuang Zi and Lao Zi as philosophers - they are lovers and teachers of wisdom. It is their methods that differ from the stereotypical Western intellectual philosopher.

 

Mendelssohn - you may not bother to take the time to learn Tai Ji Quan but if you have an interest in understanding Daoism I would suggest you consider spending some time with some experiential practice such as meditation. And it doesn't have to be a specifically Daoist method for you to benefit. It will take your understanding of what the classics are trying to say to another level - I can guarantee that (if you haven't already, of course). I recognize that I'm making an assumption here.

Well said, Steve. I think we're in agreement. I actually meditate a lot, and put many of Zhuangzi's teachings (along with others) into practice. I understand fully that it's not only intellectual. I certainly don't think it's about appearances and traditions though. I think it goes deeper than that; methods for getting into harmony with nature. I can see how Tai Chi and meditation are methods, but wearing a fancy hat so everyone respects you? I think such things are a little contradictory to the spontaneity of nature and your true self. Not that it really matters whether people wear hats, or what they do on the outside. I could not really care less, but if one focuses on these things they will miss the boat, and I can remember big rants Zhuangzi went on saying this exact same thing =P

Hi, Zhuangzi is one of my favourite Chinese writers (years ago I did read him in original Chinese). However, he is not philosopher in my view - philosophy usually comes to us as a result of speculative thinking or as a result of life practice (although nowadays it is a rare thing). You can find many examples of his deep spiritual practice thourough the book. And because no philosopher can discover that breathing is done from the heel etc., therefore I call him simply practitioner. So feel free to consider him philosopher, of course, just do not forget where his philosophy comes from, please.

With regards to fancy clothes and ritual, well, it is called tradition. Did you ever teach people? If yes, you should know that if you will speak anything more than common, most people will not understand you. So you have to give them things in a way they can understand. Some people need the most basic interactions, some people can use advanced... Some people need fancly clothing, others are satisfied with rags... Unfortunately, most intelligent people (especially Westerners) have tendency look down at those simple things like rituals, prostrations, meditations. They think these are something less than philosophy. They are wrong. There is a great difference between understanding by mind and understanding by heart - and when Taoism and Buddhism talk about pure understanding, clear mind etc., they always mean understanding by heart, not by mind. Without that (often boring) ritual and tradition, there is no real understanding, just the floating superficial mind. In other words, that philosophical foundation (you speak about above) is based on the ritual and tradition (you dislike), philosophy is based on personal practice. I am saying that without that you will never fully understand Zhuangzi. I think if you read it just by your mind or brain, if you take it as philosophy, you miss the most important points of his book - a personal practice of his life.

 

Miro

Thanks for your input, Miro.

I agree to an extent. When I read Zhuangzi I always have to put it into practice rather than just think about it and let it sink into my heart. It's not only thought based, and I understand that. However, when I speak of traditions I am talking about the modern ones that came after Zhuangzi was written, so it certainly wasn't what was trying to be portrayed if it had not yet existed. Also there are many parts in Zhuangzi that speak against tradition, fancy clothing and things like that. You say I dislike tradition, but that's not really the case, it just doesn't do much for me. If I put on some traditional clothes it doesn't change my heart. It is just me trying to make myself appear righteous or exalted above others. Zhuangzi talks directly against such things which is why I asked the question.

Sceptic is not my identity, nor do I identify with any such movement.

Finally, I don't practice it.

 

What I meant to communicate is that based on my prior conditioning and my current understanding, I tend not to accept or believe things very readily that are not in some way observable, credible, or consistent with my personal experience. My background is in Western science followed by about 10 years of study and training in Daoist arts. I try to have a very open mind but I try not to be gullible. I don't like to "believe" things or "disbelieve" things when I can avoid it. I prefer to know or simply not know rather than to believe.

 

I was using sceptic more as a descriptive term of my tendency, nothing more. Thanks for calling me on that unskillful statement.

I'm not advocating this position for anyone else, just stating what exists for me.

 

This demonstration just feels like a phony to me. If someone were able to so readily burn paper with their Qi in what looks like a scientific setting, we would be seeing much broader evidence of this - peer reviewed papers, more organized demonstrations, and so on. This would make these folks rich and famous if it were true. You can talk around that but it's just the way I see it.

I think it was perfectly fine for you to call yourself a skeptic. Saying so is merely the condensed version of the four paragraphs you just typed. That's what skepticism is. We have words like this to make things easier for conversational purposes. Those who nitpick at little words usually miss the point of the conversation. Language isn't perfect. And ironically those who are always looking for subtle errors will have them in their speech as well. It's just the result of practicality =/. It would have been better for the person to ask you to elaborate than to tell you that you were wrong.

Thanks guys. That makes sense. I guess all I'm really interested in is the philosophical aspect. (Although I think Tai Chi is very beautiful, I wouldn't take the time to learn it).

Hi Mendelssohn,

 

We are currently running a series of chapter by chapter comparison of the Tao Te Ching in the "Taoist Discussions" forum.

 

It is my plan that when we finish the TTC we can do something similar with the Chuang Tzu.

 

Buyer Beware Warning: I speak only to the philosophy aspect of Taoism so if you are looking for info in the other fields you will have to work with other members.

Thank you,

I would be interested in reading the discussion on Zhuangzi. Hopefully that happens =).

Welcome Mendelssohn. I am also a fan of Zhuang Zi.

It's my feeling that most religions have a beautiful, profound, and simple core.

At their core is a unique language for pointing the seeker toward the truth, toward reality, in a way that is determined by their cultural, geographical, and temporal characteristics.

On top of this is piled all of the distractions, misinterpretations, corruption, and baggage of generations of misguided, well-intentioned, or opportunistic people.

So Daoism is full of wisdom and beauty but there's plenty of chaff as well.

Don't let that keep you away.

Thanks a lot Steve,

That's the impression I got too, but I had never really heard anyone else comment on that.

It won't keep me away =)

Hello everyone,

I am from Ontario, Canada, and have not met anyone else who knows about Taoism. I am new to Taoism in general, but not very new to eastern philosophical concepts. I came across Zhuangzi by chance, after already reading Tao Te Ching. I read all three of the books and I have to say it is the best thing (in philosophy) that I ever read. His thoughts were so akin to my own. It was very refreshing, and also very thought provoking. It was meant to make you think and not just tell you the way it is and although at first some things that are written may seem simple, upon further thinking there seems to always be more depth to it. Some passages could be a book of their own but they are kept so beautifully simple. On a side note, science is what I read most of all, and as a result I am skeptical, thus many older writings, in fact most philosophy I have heard seems very outdated and absurd. Zhuangzi seems timeless! (until the human race is wiped out of course =) ). Anyway, I loved Zhuangzi; my favourite philosopher. On the other hand, I don't know much about Toaism, in general. Although from what I've seen of modern Taoism, which is not much, there is a lot of ritual, fancy clothing, tradition. Does focusing on such things not contradict the words of Zhuangzi? I've noticed the same with Buddhism. Therefor I would not be Buddhist or Toaist, because the ritual and tradition have overcome the philosophical foundation that they are based upon! I do not know anyone else who has learned about Taoism but I would like to hear another opinion on this. I love to be contradicted, so feel free to do so! =)

A seeker of truth will not be a catholic for long.

A seeker of comfort and stability will, by those very mechanisms, not be able to admit it to themselves, and thus disguise it as truth!

If you are seeking truth, why label yourself a catholic? That very labeling will be a barrier! If you were looking at everything fresh, without your upbringing being taken into account subconsciously, how could Christianity be differentiated from all the other religions? Moreover, how could it compare with the mountains of evidence science provides to the contrary, where it has none (to the same degree of scientific scrutiny). It is close to your heart, I understand, but those are primitive impulses. It is reason, in spite of that, that separates us from animals; it is a skill to be learned.

I do not condemn someone who is a catholic. Perhaps you enjoy it, but isn't calling yourself a seeker of truth somewhat self-condemning? If that were so you would start afresh, and look upon all things as equal, and see where the evidence and good reason takes you, without letting personal feelings and perceptions, accumulated through upbringing cloud your judgement.

-Mendelssohn

Hello everyone,

I am from Ontario, Canada, and have not met anyone else who knows about Taoism. I am new to Taoism in general, but not very new to eastern philosophical concepts. I came across Zhuangzi by chance, after already reading Tao Te Ching. I read all three of the books and I have to say it is the best thing (in philosophy) that I ever read. His thoughts were so akin to my own. It was very refreshing, and also very thought provoking. It was meant to make you think and not just tell you the way it is and although at first some things that are written may seem simple, upon further thinking there seems to always be more depth to it. Some passages could be a book of their own but they are kept so beautifully simple. On a side note, science is what I read most of all, and as a result I am skeptical, thus many older writings, in fact most philosophy I have heard seems very outdated and absurd. Zhuangzi seems timeless! (until the human race is wiped out of course =) ). Anyway, I loved Zhuangzi; my favourite philosopher. On the other hand, I don't know much about Toaism, in general. Although from what I've seen of modern Taoism, which is not much, there is a lot of ritual, fancy clothing, tradition. Does focusing on such things not contradict the words of Zhuangzi? I've noticed the same with Buddhism. Therefor I would not be Buddhist or Toaist, because the ritual and tradition have overcome the philosophical foundation that they are based upon! I do not know anyone else who has learned about Taoism but I would like to hear another opinion on this. I love to be contradicted, so feel free to do so! =)