oat1239

And once that is achieved, do you think those folks who are so highly cultivated that they forego all concerns with wealth and fame are making youtube videos showing how they can burn a hole in paper with their Qi projection?

Actually I beleive the video was made by some journalists that were interviewing him. What I see in this video is someone demonstrating an ability they say they have to people who were asking specific questions about what he does and how he does it. A lot of people do not believe in qi. Since qi can't be seen (at least not normally) you can't demonstrate qi itself on a video. If you have the ability and you want to demonstrate something for a video, one option would be to show an unusual effect of emitting qi that can be seen on a video. I see no definite reason to assume that this is all just a plan to make money and seek fame.

The thing that bugs me is this sort of fantasy does not encourage people to take their cultivation seriously. It's exploitation and foolishness. It's what causes many people to scoff at some of these concepts and not take them seriously. Much better to meditate or study the Classics than search the web for videos of Qi projection, that's all I'm trying to say.

Well, I don't follow you. If you don't like to watch such videos, you don't have to watch them. I am also unclear how you came to the definite conclusion that this is "fantasy". A skeptic could say that they have their doubts since it is only a video, and they would need to see this in person under much more controlled conditions or whatever if they were to be convinced, and leave it at that. A person operating from strong belief however does not care if they have any real evidence or proof that something is really false or not, they believe very strongly that something is not possible and pronounce anything as fake or fantasy that doesn't fit in with this strong belief that they hold.

Other than maybe peaking the curiosity of some people to do some more research into this sort of thing and maybe inspiring some to start learning qigong or meditation so they can try it themself, I don't think there will really be much impact on people beyond that. If someone is really interested in personal cultivation they will likely continue to do so regardless of a video that demonstrates some unusual qigong ability or not. The worst I can imagine is a person might be inspired to keep at their practice or to even practice more diligently, heaven forbid.

I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. People are free to believe what they want. I posted this because I personally find it interesting and thought some other people might as well. My own personal experience in this regard causes me to be open to the possibilty of such things and I so I find them interesting. I am however aware that there a lots of fake videos on youtube, so I do take that into account, as I'm sure most people do. Since I know something about Dr. Jiang Feng and his teacher, I am inclined to think that he would not have any interest in posting a fake video on youtube. I am more inclined to think he just wanted to provide some information and show people what is possible. That is just my own opinion.

This would make these folks rich and famous if it were true.

Some people are not at all concerned with wealth and fame. In fact some would say that to be able to cultivate oneself to a high level one first has to do away with all such notions and desires and bring the heart and mind to a deeply calm and balanced state. Only then can true cultivation begin. Without this foundation one likely won't ever progress much beyond the level of basic health maintenance and enhancement and aerobic exercise and relaxing. Not that such things are bad. Just different potential in my opinion.

In this world, as surely as night follows day, yang will be counteracted by yin.

I always thought Yijinjing was a method used to heal and strengthen the body, hence it's name, the Muscle/Tendon Changing Classic.

The name is literally that, but some say that the original yijinjing system was actually a very deep and profound system with enlightenment at its highest goal. What we see modern day shaolin monks publically demonstrating seems more like a basic form of qigong or dao yin, but Dr. Jiang Feng seems to be practicing something that goes much beyond just a basic health and strengthening qigong. This would seem to lend support to the idea that the original system may have been much more profound than what is commonly thought these days.

Emitting qi for healing purposes is not exclusively a Taoist practice, but since it is related I thought this video might be appropriate in this forum. If this is not appropriate for this forum, please feel free to move it.

This is a demo of Dr Jiang Feng from China doing a demonstration of emitting qi from one of his fingers during an interview about his healing methods. Unfortunately the interview is in Mandarin but for those who can understand Mandarin you may find the whole video of Dr. Jiang's comments about his healing methods interesting, and those who can't speak mandarin will probably just want to watch the demo of the burning a hole in a sheet of paper by emitting qi from his finger, as the rest is just talking.

The video is a bit long, so to go right to the part in the video where Dr. Jiang Feng does the qi emission demonstration of burning a hole through a sheet of paper, start watching the video at the 4:10 mark. It actually looks much like a laser was used to burn a hole in the paper and I am certain some people will be inclined to insist that this is fake and a laser was actually used to burn the hole in the sheet of paper, but comments I have seen from people who have visited Dr. Jiang Feng would seem to support that he really does have some extraordinary abilities with qi. Dr Jiang Feng calls his qigong style yijinjing qigong, but from what little I have seen it appears different than what you may have seen shaolin monks practicing, although it is supposed to be from the same source. Technically not a taoist practice, but some say the 8 pieces brocade was derived from the original yijinjing qigong method.

Here's the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ND5r3FxkZM8

This link should take you right to the 4:10 mark in the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ND5r3FxkZM8&feature=player_detailpage#t=249s

As usual, "it depends":-)

I haven't read any women's comments on this thread but I guess it must be a bit different for each person.

I don't get tired out due to my period. What tires me out is giving too much. I think that's pretty much it.

But if you look at female practices (the rare ones that get "out there") many of them deal with pelvic area as well as heart centre/breasts. I think women's reactions to stress are a bit different and I guess until folks understand it, might be some leftover attributions by folks that aren't very helpful. Not to say that folks' attributions to male stress are any better.

Such things do not seem to affect everyone in the same way. Some men say that sex just relaxes them or even refreshes them, so it seems there are variations in different people's experience.

I think one has to define what jing means to see whether we are talking about the same thing. I think not all TCM is correct, a lot of it is just guesswork with theory and it is not proven in western tests. I don't take this as a basis to decide whether anything is right or not just because a book or a person has told me and I have practiced TCM!! A book may say all sorts of things whether they are right is a different matter. That's why there are so many different forms and points of acupuncture, even though one might think that there must be only one set of meridians and points??? It cannot be proven in any case! There is a basis why jing is in the body from this we can understand it and how it manifest and affects us in our daily lives. The important thing I feel here is that jing influences qi and qi development, that's why it is important. If one understands the source then one can see that I am right, if one follows blindly what someone else theories-es, then you will follow this. I maintain female jing is essentially inherited and is little affected by menstruation or by giving birth to children. Although qi can be affected by both that is I feel the difference. Jing is the battery, qi is its manifestation.

Why are you assuming that I am only basing my opinion on what some others have said or written? I am not, if that matters at all to you. I was mentioning this view to point out that it seems to be a somewhat common view overall, which does account for something. My view is also based on my own understanding and observations in regards to the concept of jing within myself (I am male) and observing what appears to be similar for females, both from observation and from what females describe from their own experiences. By comparing the concepts with my own experiences and experiences of others and from my observations, the idea that women lose jing through menstruation certainly seems to be valid to me.

If one understands the source then one can see that I am right, if one follows blindly what someone else theories-es, then you will follow this.

Now you are starting to sound a lot like another member here. Making assumptions and stating that if people would only see things exactly as you see them they would be right. Otherwise they are wrong. Funny!

Most people do not have a definition of Chi. It was all speculations.

Hello ChiDragon. It is easy for a person to make all kinds of statements to try to back up their point of view, but what is important is whether a statement has some real basis or not. There are all sorts of descriptions of qi from many different sources such as from various Taoist and Buddhist traditions and from TCM and from medical qigong practitioners, as well as descriptions from other cultures and such. In many traditions the views and descriptions and definitions are based on the accumulated experience and knowledge of many generations of practitioners passing on their accumulated experience and knowledge. To make a statement that "It was all speculations" is quite absurd. Much of it is based on many centuries of accumulated experience and knowledge by dedicated practitioners and the concepts have often been put to the test many times over. Of course it doesn't mean that all such passed on views and knowledge are always right, and certainly they are sometimes later thought to be incomplete or wrong and are modified, but to suggest that it is all just speculation is completely at odds with the reality of the situation.

Now-a-days, the Chinese have come up with some good descriptions. Somehow, it was not transposed into the West but the same old stories again. What I had read between the Chinese and English was 180 degree out of phase. Too bad you don't read Chinese, otherwise, you will know what I meant.

Actually a lot of the modern Chinese practitioners of qigong describe qi as a form of energy as well. This has already been pointed out to you but you seem to blithely ignore this fact. Why do you continue to shut your eyes and ears to this and other things that have been pointed out to you and continue to insist otherwise? Maybe the officially promoted Mao Zedong/Chinese Communist government inspired version insisted that all former ideas of qi and such all comes from superstition and therefore must automatically be completely rejected as baseless speculation and superstition, but most reasonable people do not discount traditional ideas and experience and knowledge simply based on blind ideology. There has to be a sound basis for doing so.

If Chi is, the vital energy, the almighty, can we survive without oxygen but just live with Chi alone...???

No, the body can't survive without oxygen. The body also can't survive without a lot of other things as well. Oxygen is important. So is proper nutritional and water intake and shelter and appropriate clothing and exercise. Breathing plays an important role in many forms of qigong practice, but just how the breathing is done varies widely with different practices. Some practices place a strong emphasis on breathing techniques, some place the emphasis only at certain stages, and some place little emphasis on breathing. There are different types of qigong practice. So called post natal and external qigong practices may place a lot more emphasis on breathing techniques to help acquire and direct qi. Other modern qigong practices such as zhineng qigong, widely practiced and accepted in current day China and endorsed by the Chinese communist government I believe, seem to mainly place emphasis on visualization and mental concentration to gather 'universal qi'. The mind is used in this practice to draw qi into the body and the movements and postures are mainly used as an aid to focusing and using the mind, based on what I have heard and read from some teachers of this practice. Other forms of qigong use certain specific forms and movement to facilitate the absorption of 'heaven qi' and 'earth qi' into the body and no special breathing or mental concentration may be used to accumulate and nourish qi. These are some examples but there are likely various other approaches to qigong as well such as absorbing qi from the sun, moon, and stars, and from nature and other practices.

One can't simply just ignore many of these different practices and views simply because it doesn't fit in with one's limited preconception of what qi is. Actually one can behave that way, but it certainly isn't very reasonable and it certainly doesn't help in any way to advance the knowledge and understanding of qi and qigong. True understanding comes from being open to all these different aspects and trying to come to an understanding that takes into account all these different views and different experiences of different properties and forms of qi.

For a person to make up statements and present them as facts and blithely ignore anything that doesn't fit in with their own personal view is the earmark of the fanatic. One doesn't have to be religious or superstitious to be fanatical. One just has to have very strong beliefs that something is definitely a certain way and the fanatical attacking or ignoring of other views that do not fit in with these strong beliefs may begin. My experience is that atheists and skeptics can often be just as fanatical in their close mindedness and attacks towards other views as some religious and political fanatics can be. Fanaticism is fanaticism.

Certainly, not all practices are necessarily good and not all views are necessarily valid or complete, but only by remaining open and taking into account and fairly investigating and evaluating all these different approaches and views from different traditions do we have a real chance of coming to a better understanding of what qi and qigong is. Actually, many people come to a better understanding of what qi is through their ongoing personal practice and experience of qigong and meditation and such people are often quite content with learning from their own personal experience in such matters. I personally am quite content to take this approach although I am always open to others experiences and knowledge as well, as it can help to further my understanding of my own experience.

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Hi

I get your drift and have known about what you are saying, but I think this is different. What I believe women feel, is more to do with blood loss and hormone changes. Their essential Jing comes from their mothers and fathers going back to the very beginning of time. Men's jing is the same, but because men make sperm all the time and draw on their jing all the time, whereas women's eggs were formed when they were a fetus in the womb of their mothers, essentially they don't lose their jing. But their qi can go up and down just like a man's.

Still disagree. It seems to be a fairly common view within Taoism and possibly also TCM that women lose jing through menstruation and also through giving birth. In women, jing is associated with blood, so it may relate to menstruation in this way. Jing is also associated with other things like hormones. It may also relate to this as well. I guess we disagree then. I'm Ok with that.

Women's 'jing' is a complicated affair and is to do with the making of eggs, not the menstruation. The jing lies in the ovaries and is not affected by menstruation. It is the same as the making of the sperm in men, But many millions are made each day (we hope!!!) which draw on vital jing. The eggs in a women's ovaries are already there, formed in the womb and stimulated to develop further only at puberty or when fertilized. So women do not lose their 'jing'. One could even go further and say inherited 'jing'/qi, but then we are going off the subject.

I am still inclined to disagree. Whether one calls it qi or jing or both, I believe some is lost through menstruation. Just ask a woman how she feels during or shortly after her period and it becomes obvious. There is jing/qi loss. Certain qigong practices may reduce this. I recall reading that Taoist internal alchemy for women includes certain practices for women to reduce or eliminate menstruation, but I am not certain about that. I have come across this concept of women losing jing/qi through menstruation from different sources. If I recall correctly, one qigong book I read stated that women tend to lose less jing overall from menstruation than men who are actively having sex, and that might be supported by the observation that women often seem to outlive or stay healthier longer than their husbands somewhat, but I don't have any statistics to back that up. This last part about women tending to outlive their husbands or be healthier longer than their husbands is just my casual observation and may be quite wrong.

You fortunately do not lose vital 'jing', because female 'jing' is not linked to relations, so to speak.

Actually I believe women lose jing through menstruation.

Those are good points. Where does it leave us, then? I'm entirely at peace with the ambiguity of it all. My practice is the best thing that's ever happened to me.

I made some suggestions in this regard a couple of posts up, but I am also quite content to view qi as something that is very mysterious and leave it at that. Even though I don't have an all encompassing definition for what qi is, it does not seem to hurt the effectiveness of my qigong practice. I follow the prescribed steps and the results come. That is what is important to me as well.

I thught it's been fairly well established that chi is bioelectromagnetism that we can feel and manipulate when we tune up our nervous systems with chi kung and nei kung exercises.

The term bioelectromagnetism would imply electromagnetism generated within or by the body. That might sound like a nice scientific way to describe the sensations and properties of qi, but electromagnetic fields are something that can be readily measured and analyzed depending on the frequency and strength of the field. If it is something that is relatively weak, then can it really account for the strong effects and other phenomena that qi can produce within the body?

When a qigong healer emits qi it can produce very strong effects in the person receiving the qi, so one would expect some sort of corresponding strong electromagnetic field is being radiated from the qigong healer if electromagnetism is the explanation for radiated qi, yet although some experiments with qi healers do show some interesting associated physical phenomena such as certain types of electromagnetic phenomena or other energetic particles being present, from what I understand the levels measured are only quite small compared to the physical effects that can be induced by emitted qi.

I have received emitted qi from a qigong healer and felt a very strong field like sensation coming from his hand which was held at a distance of a couple of feet from my body. One would expect that if this were caused by a radiated electromagnetic field from the qigong healer that one would be able to measure a fairly strong electromagnetic field using the appropriate measuring instrument. I do not believe that such is the case at all. Some experiments I have read about have reported measurements of various physical phenomena associated with the external qi radiation, but the levels reported are quite small compared to what one would expect for the types of sensations and effects that are actually produced by the emitted qi on the subject. Also I have on numerous occasions stood within relatively strong electromagnetic fields in the RF range and do not feel much sensation whatsoever, although if one stands in a strong RF field for a while one can get surface skin and flesh burns. The higher the frequency the more the electromagnetic radiation can cause heat and burns. For example, microwaves, infrared light, and ultraviolet light. So although the emission of qi can apparently produce some measurable physical phenomena, to my knowledge the measured levels of the associated physical phenomena is at a relatively low level and would not seem to explain at all the kind of strong sensations and healing results that external qigong healing can produce.

We also have the reported cases of qigong masters and yoga masters who can reportedly go extended periods of time without eating or drinking. Now if I radiate myself with electromagnetic energy of different types and at different levels and combinations I have serious doubts that I would find frequencies or combinations of frequencies that could produce the same effects as radiated qi or which could sustain my body without food and water for extended periods of time. Some explanations might sound reasonable at first glance but when examined a little deeper they just don't really stand up to scrutiny. I have heard other terms thrown around like bioelectricity and biomagnetism as well, but electricity, magnetism, and electromagnetism are all readily measurable and analyzable physical phenomena, and if qi and qi emission related directly to such things it would seem a relative cinch to prove that the concept of qi is directly related to these things. Such is not the case at all, I believe.

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So, it seems we can gain qi from food and drink, and we can gain qi from air (oxygen). This can be viewed strictly from a physiological standpoint in regards to how the body absorbs nutrients and generates energy from food, and how the body uses oxygen to function as well, as ChiDragon has outlined. So from this perspective a form of qi can be viewed as actual physical characteristics of food and air and the physiological processes in the body which transform this 'qi' into useable forms of energy and sustenance for the body.

Another possible way to view it is that besides the obvious physical characteristics of food and air, that food and air also somehow contain qi in some form or other which we absorb when eating and breathing. So besides the physiological processing of the food and air we also gain or absorb qi from eating and breathing and this qi is used to replenish our overall internal qi which is stored in our 'energy centers' and flows through our meridians. Now this might seem like we are complicating things unnecessarily, since we can understand the body's functioning and gaining of physical energy through examining the physical properties of food and air and the body's physiological processes. However, what then flows through the meridians and is stored in various centers in the body such as the dantian?

Those who practice qigong may have experienced the definite sensations of something that feels like energy moving along meridians or vibrating strongly at certain centers in the body, and sometimes we can feel field like sensations around parts of our body or the whole body, or we feel field like or other sensations externally between one part of the body and another. In some qigong forms it feels like some sort of energy or field is flowing through us. A qigong healer can also project qi from their body to another person over a distance and the other person receiving this qi may feel various sensations from this projected qi and certain health problems may become healed. So, if qi is just physical properties and physiological processes, how can we tie this into the experiences of qi which can extend outside the body but which do not seem to relate directly to any known or easily measurable physical phenomena?

Here is another aspect to this. We have all heard stories of recluses who can apparently go for extended periods of time without food or water and their bodies remain healthy. One apparent example of this is a man named Prahlad Jani from India who was reportedly monitored 24 hours a day by Indian military doctors over a 15 day period and was observed to not eat or drink anything for those 15 days without any weakening or harmful effect to his body. He is about 82 years old. He also did not have to use the toilet for the whole 15 days. This man apparently claims he hasn't eaten or drunk anything in the last 65 years. At any rate he did survive the test of 15 days with no food or water with no problem which no ordinary person could do. Most people could go 15 days without eating anything without dying, although most would probably lose a fair bit of weight and become quite weak, but to also not drink anything for 15 days would put most people in a severely dehydrated state and some people might even die. 15 days is a very long time to go without drinking anything.

Medics baffled by man who doesn't eat

So, we have a reported case here where apparently someone was shown to be able to sustain their body without any harmful effects for 15 days without food and drink. So what was sustaining his body? This is why I say qi seems mysterious to me. In one way it can be seen to have a very strong relation to physical properties of things like food, drink, and air, but in other ways it seems to defy fitting into any known physical properties or phenomena. Could it be that qi can take many forms, including both physical and other forms? Or is qi something other than physical matter completely that interacts with all things in different ways and sustains them, and which has it own unique various properties and forms?

When we consider the person who is able to sustain their body for 15 days without food or drink, we might also consider that maybe qi is some sort of base or intrinsic driving force or energy which can take or invoke both physical and non-physical forms. Is qi the basic intrinsic 'substance' of the universe which can take all forms both physical and non-physical and which makes up everything in this universe? Thus when we talk about physical substances or physiological processes or energy or earth qi or heaven qi or universal qi or emitted qi or qi fields or original qi, we are talking about all the different forms that qi can take and all the different ways that qi can operate. Maybe that is an 'out of this world' explanation but when I personally consider all the different ways that the term qi is used and all the different ways qi is described, I really have to wonder if qi is not really just the basic core 'substance' of all things and all phenomena in this universe. Another simpler way to say it is that qi is something that is very mysterious.

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OK. I'll take your word for it that qi simply cannot just relate directly to air or oxygen even though I believe it was working for me all this time. I will continue to do my deep breathing and advance to a higher level of Chi Kung while others are still wondering where Chi is coming from.

Anyway, it was a real pleasure talking to you and shared our differences of understanding about Chi.

I don't think anyone has said that breathing is not used in some forms of qigong, Breathing certainly has a place there, there is no doubt. It really seems that we can absorb qi through breathing, but it also seems we can also absorb or accumulate qi other ways as well, so we can't just simply ignore that because it might not fit in with some preconception. I think that is all anyone is saying. You are quite entitled to your personal view of things. It is only when you make definitive statements about qi or qigong and suggest that others are not practicing right or they are understanding things wrong or they are not "true Taoists" simply because something doesn't fit your narrow defintiion, that people may feel the need to respond to you. You are also not the only one here who has made some progress in qigong, although people here likely practice a wide variety of practices. Good luck with your practice!

oat1239...

As I had mentioned this here once before in the forum, I am not at the level of understanding how Chi was emitted from on human body. This was never my argument. My argument was an scientific and comprehensible explanation to show how was the energy generated within the human body.

 

If I am going to explain the scenario in you case, based with my present knowledge, the Chi emitted from the human body has to be related to the ATP because that was the only known source of energy within the human body. My educational guess would be that the Chi Kung master has the ability to activate all the mitochondria in the body to generated a maximum of ATP possible to release all at once.

From your previous comment on ATP:

"The reason we breathe was to capture the oxygen in the air for

our body cells. Then, the body cells will use the oxygen to combine

with the glucose and convert it into energy. This energy is a

biochemical energy called adenosine triphosphate(ATP). Our muscles

require this biological useful energy for contraction. Thus we get

an indication from this fact if we breathe more oxygen, then our

body cells will generate more energy. "

I believe there is no known basis to think that ATP can be transmitted across space, as it is a form of biochemical energy based on your statement above, so to suggest that this must somehow be related to qi projection does not seem to have any real basis. You can't propose a definition of something that does not encompass all the known properties of that thing. Various people have pointed out to you that qi can be acquired through still or moving forms which do not place any emphasis on special breathing. Also, many here have experience with the transmission of qi through space with physical contact not being required. It seems quite unreasonable to me that we should ignore such things when considering what qi is just because such things might not fit in with someone's preconceived notions of what qi is. To start to consider what qi is we have to at least take into account all the properties and forms that we are aware of.

You stated previously:

"We cannot go by any myth from the past fanatically. We must go with something that is explainable and comprehensible".

Even though it is pointed out to you that qi simply cannot just relate directly to air or oxygen or its effects on the body such as the production of ATP, because it is possible to absorb and accumalte qi without any special breathing (many here have no doubt experienced this) and qi can be transmitted across space from one person to another person or to an object and produce definite effects. No offense but you actually seem to be the one fanatically holding on to your very limited definition of qi as air or oxygen or ATP, which actually itself appears to be just a "myth from the past", as your definition clearly falls short of known observed properties of qi that various people have experienced and reported and written about.

Whatever qi is, it is certainly not just some property or effect of air or oxygen or ATP or other biological property. It may have some connection or relation to such things in some way, but it is clearly not those things. If there is a physical explanation for qi, it seems much more likely to me that it will involve either some as yet unknown form of energy or some other as yet unknown property or properties of matter that occurs at a subatomic level or some such thing. Your definition is clearly not in line with what many qigong practitioners over the years are reporting about qi and qigong. You seem to be picking and choosing what you want to consider as qi and ignoring anything else that doesn't fit with this preconceived notion. This seems neither reasonable nor scientific.

I personally don't have any idea what qi is other than it is certainly mysterious, so I can't offer anything to this discussion in regards to forming a definition. Sometimes I feel it in different ways and sometimes it produces light effects, although I don't know if it is actually ever producing some form of visible light. It is more like a light that is perceived with the mind but not actual visible light. Ok, wait, that's it! Qi is something very mysterious. That is my definition of qi.

I have established a definition for Chi in the last few years. I had been trying to let people know if we are talking about the energy flowing in the body. We cannot go by any myth from the past fanatically. We must go with something that is explainable and comprehensible. If we look closely to modern science e.g. physiology. It talks about how the human body energy, the biological energy(ATP), was required oxygen and glucose to be generated.

Hello ChiDragon. I have experienced qi flowing into or out of points on my body such as the laogong points on my hands. I have also experienced the very strong sensation of qi being transmitted from the hamd of a qigong healer who was standing a couple feet away from me and emitting qi from his hand to my body without touching me. It produced a very strong sensation with immediate effects on my body. It feels like some kind of strong field but clearly it is not an electromagnetic field or magnetic field or it would be relatively easy to get a reading of the field with an appropriate electronic meter. Also, I have stood in both electromagnetic and magnetic fields of varying strengths and not felt any noticeable effects on my body. There is most definitely something else going on with qi emission.

So, if qi is really just a way of describing physical properties or biological energy, what do you suppose causes the strong field like and other sensations when qi is being emitted from a distance? Just so you know, when I was in university I took part in a study by the psychology department on hypnosis and suggestibility levels, and I tested as being of very low suggestibily. I was pretty much completely unresponsive to all suggestion techniques used in the test. So, based on that, I think that this is also not just a case of suggestibility causing me to imagine sensations. Something is really going on that produces a strong field like sensation when qi is being emitted from a distance. Also, I started to feel almost immediate relief in pain once the qigong healer began emitting qi towards the area where I had pain. How would you account for this based on your understanding and definition of what qi is?

OK. This is my understanding for a religious Taoist but not Taoism in general.

The main purpose to be a religious Taoist was to preserve life for longevity. Taoist Meditation is part of the life preserving process to a Taoist. What I am saying is why should the mind be disturbed while trying to obtain serenity. The purpose for meditation was to place oneself in the a state of quiescent so the body and mind is at rest in complete quietness. Thus, it was free from any interference and interruption based on the concept of Wu Wei.

I don't think religious Taoism is mainly concerned with longevity, although there were groups in Taoism who were focused on that and even physical immortality. At any rate I think I see where you are coming from. Wuwei was an important concept in some earlier Taoist writings, and some groups may have placed a lot of emphasis on such things, but I believe the earlier Taoist writngs also speak of more than just that. There are also Taoist cultivation traditions in existence which claim that their cultivation traditions long precede even the times of Lao Zi and Zhuang Zi, although there is no easy way to prove or disprove such claims. Some form of merging with tao is usually expressed as the highest goals in many Taoist cultivation traditions, but what that really means we can each only guess at. It is no wonder there have been so many different groups and views within Taoism as a whole, as so much is open to personal interpretation. This being open to many interpretations is not exclusive to just Taoism however. It seems to be the way of such things.

You did not read me correctly....

Hello ChiDragon. I was aware that you were making a distinction between buddhist and taoist meditation, but I found your specific comment on taoist meditation misleading, as I explained. That is just my own opinion, of couse. Forgot to add that in actuality different groups in Taoism have different approaches to cultivation, and not all place emphasis on meditation, or this sort of meditation. One example was the Shangqing sect. Since we are talking about Taoism in general, I think this is worth mentioning.

A Taoist meditation was to have no thoughts and bring the mind into a Wu state. A Wu state is to think of nothing but put oneself into a quiescent state.

No, I do not believe that is correct, or rather, it is misleading. In my opinion that is a part of the process, but just getting to a state of thinking nothing is not the goal by any means. It is just a stage in meditation. There is much more to the process than that. By putting the rational mind to rest a new form of experiencing and a new way of gaining knowledge is awakened. To try to clarify what I am saying, a state of no thinking is a means, but it is not the purpose or end goal. I think that the purpose is more along the lines of reaching a state of being where one can directly experience reality as it is. Some call it enlightenment. Some call it dao. If the goal was just achieving no thought so one could be serene, it wouldn't have much more than a minor practical use. Sedatives can also make one serene but it wouldn't serve much practical purpose except for someone who is distraught. The goals of Taoism go much beyond achieving mere sernity and calmness in daily life, although meditation certainly does help in that regard.

The goal and purpose of Meditation is to have the mind reaching an empty or vacuous state. The purpose of the practice is to help the mind to see and hear nothing in an disturbing and busy environment. The ultimate goal is to train the mind to be calm and poised in any adversity. Another word, you are calm as a standing mountain even someone curse at you or slap you on the face. However, that was considered to be the ultimate state of meditation. Can it be done...???

Hi ChiDragon. We cross paths again. That may be your opinion, but in my own opinion what you have said here is quite false. What you describe is only a small part of the picture. If someone were to describe meditation from a most peripheral and shallow point of view using only thier intellect to try to understand it, it would be much as you describe it. Meditation in my opinion is actually a process of bypassing the rational or intellectual mind to achieve true insight and understanding and spiritual growth through direct experience that can't ever be approached or achieved through normal processes of the intellect or rational mind, or however one wishes to call it. The true process can only ever be experienced and not ever deduced or analyzed by intellectual analysis.

Any true Taoists out there....???

Why? Are you interested in starting to learn a little bit about true Taoism? I think that in order for you to do so, first you would have to be willing to start letting go of your extremely flat, arbitrary, rigid fixed point of view which is lodged firmly and squarely in your intellect and start to admit that there are many things you simply do not know. In other words, before one can start, the intellect must be put back in its proper place otherwise a person is doomed to doing nothing more than swimming blindly and endlessly around within the confines of their very limited intellect.

NO, there was no such thing as "Walking meditation". I don't know how people came up with this terminology...???

Nonsense. Walking meditation is a traditional practice within at least some schools of Taoism cultivation. How far back the practice goes in history is anyone's guess however. Now I know why you call yourself the forlorn Taoist. You are stuck firmly within the confining walls of your imagination and intellect and you apparently see no way out. Take heart. It is as easy as letting go. It just takes a little practice to start getting the hang of it. The intellect will eventually revert back to its real purpose of helping us to function within the limited confines of the silver screen movie entitled 'The Material World', and you will then be free to start learning some baby steps with pure experiencing.

OK, I'm funnin' with ya a bit, but I think you are looking for some real feedback otherwise you wouldn't be saying the things you have been saying here.

There really seems to be a natural law in this universe that truth cannot ever be handed to us. It must always be buried mountain high in muck and dirt and endless melodrama, and only the very determined and commited with unshakeable faith will ever have a chance of finding a pearl at the bottom of the mountain of muck. Yang must always be balanced out by Yin in this world. Truth will not ever be left exposed without a huge covering of muck to hide it. There is no exception, it seems.

But I did want to try and see if this was just some person on the net with an ebook that couldn’t get a publisher

Oh Ok, sorry Mal. I thought I had made it clear that this book was by an advanced practitioner of a traditional Taoist cultivation sect from Lao Shan, and the PDF is an English translation of his Chinese book. I should have made it clearer. The author is a real person. He is not a figment of someone's imagination. The author is writing from his many years of training and extensive personal experience with this Lao Shan sect. Different in some ways than some other Taoist teachings that people may be more familiar with in the West. A very interesting read indeed.

Here is a picture of Wu Dao Zhenzi (his Taoist name) from the cover of one of his Chinese books: