oat1239

Hi friends. Just thought I'd post a clip from an instructional video that someone posted up showing Mr. Moy doing his taoist tai chi form. I don't know for certain when this video was shot, but judging from Mr. Moy's appearance I would guess he was somewhere around 60 years old give or take a few years when this video was shot, as that is how Mr. Moy looked when he was around 60.

This video should give a fairly good idea of the type of stretching that Mr. Moy incorporated in his tai chi form to help people to open up their bodies more. If you look closely, you can also see how the spiral turning of the spine and extension of the spine is an important aspect of this form as well. For those looking to practice tai chi for health enhancement, any style of tai chi is no doubt good but from my own past experience Moy's 'taoist' style of tai chi is very good for helping to open up the body and for helping with chronic ailments of various types such as joint and back problems and such, and for overall health improvement.

Hope this link works:

http://player.vimeo.com/video/18678844

It is always a challenge when a teacher tries to "make the teachings more accessible". It will almost inevitably result in some sort of dilution so that it is more palatable to a greater cross-section.

Stigweard, it really seems that you are just out to bash even though it is clear that you really don't have any real direct experience and real knowledge of this style of tai chi. Based on that I will just say this:

Your implication seems to be that Mr. Moy diluted tai chi or taoist concepts and principles to make it more palatable to the general public, but that has no basis in fact. Mr. Moy modified the Yang style tai chi form in some ways based on his own experience and knowledge gained from his own various teachers and to emphasize the aspects of tai chi he wanted to emphasize. His teachings were not watered down but instead were very focused. More complex does not always mean better, and sometimes simple is the most direct. My experience has been that the more one progresses in their understanding, the more they will naturally begin to simplify.

Regarding differences. It is quite common for various tai chi masters to make the tai chi form that they have learned from one or more teachers into their own, modifying what they want to modify, emphasizing what they want to emphasize, and teaching how they want to teach. This is quite common for many tai chi masters.

For example, if one looks at videos on youtube of many different Yang or other style tai chi masters, one will see all sorts of variation in their form and on where they place their emphasis. Many of these masters have changed the form according to their own background and experience and preferences, but they do so based on the deep understanding of the principles and various techniques and approaches that they have learned from many years of diligent practice, sometimes after learning from several different teachers in the process.

No one is arguing that Mr Moy did not place more emphasis on health and personal development in his style than he did on self defence or martial arts, but Mr Moy always kept emphasis on the importance of the principles of tai chi, and for those who actually studied with him there should be little doubt that he understood those priciples well and embodied them in his teachings. Mr. Moy's tai chi is a 'new style' of tai chi which Mr. Moy chose to call taoist tai chi because of Mr. Moy's emphasis on incorporating the teaching of taoist principles in his complete system. It is no longer classical Yang style tai chi so it should not be surprising that there are differences between the two styles, just as it should not be surprising that there are differences between Chen, Yang, and Wu styles of tai chi even though these styles had a common source. I don't think anything further needs to be said. People should seek out that which is in line with their own personal purposes and goals and pursue that. If something proves suitable to a person then great, if not, move on to something else. In my view, always keeping an open mind and not passing judgement on that which we have no real knowledge of is usually a good way to proceed so that we can always stay more open to learning more and furthering our understanding. Such an approach would seem to be in keeping with tai chi principles as well.

I studied with Moy Lin Shin, the founder of the Taoist Tai Chi Society, in Toronto a number of years ago. In my experience what Mister Moy (as his English speaking students referred to him then) taught was real world down to earth taoist personal cultivation principles that ordinary every day people could adopt and put into practice, not make pretend taoism or the artificial new age hodge podge so called taoism that many people may confuse as being taoism. Mr. Moy's brand of taoism was influenced by confucianism and buddhism as well.

In my view Mr. Moy placed the strongest emphasis of his teaching on people helping others in order for people to help themselves open up their hearts and grow in a realistic way. My understanding is that when Mr. Moy first began teaching tai chi to Westerners in Canada, he did originally teach more of the martial arts side of tai chi for a while, but apparently quickly began to realize that he could reach out to much more ordinary every day people if he kept the emphasis on tai chi as a vehicle for health improvement and personal development and as a vehicle for ordinary people to help others in a very tangible way as well. That is not to say that the self defense side of his tai chi was compromised however, as anyone who actually studied directly with Mr. Moy and pushed hands with him can attest to, just that he placed more emphasis on the health benefits and personal growth aspects since he was a taoist and that was his main goal when he came to the West from Hong Kong. However, anyone who attended Mr. Moy's classes regularly would know that he always did place a lot of emphasis on students practicing push hands as a way to help further their understanding of tai chi principles in a practical way.

I believe this is also why Mr. Moy also encouraged students to start teaching tai chi when they felt ready so they could start putting the concept of helping others and being of service to others more into practice as well. Although Mr. Moy was quite advanced at tai chi and liu he ba fa, (I have pushed hands with him plus witnessed various demos of his abilities in his day to day teaching), he never ever showed off those abilities publicly. To ensure that students who began to teach his tai chi system did not diverge too far from the core principles of his tai chi, Mr Moy also put a system in place where teachers would have to attend teacher's workshops on a regular basis for corrections and to gain further emphasis and understanding of the core principles.

Mr Moy was not at all interested in developing 'fighters', which would only appeal to a small percentage of the population, but was interested in spreading his core taoist teachings and principles to as many people as he could manage to reach out to, and this is what he succeeded in doing as well. He was able to spread his teachings to very many people all over the world, and his international organization is still continuing in many countries today more than a decade after his death, so that was no small accomplishment.

In regards to the tai chi style that Mr Moy taught, it is based on Yang Style tai chi which Mr. Moy modified in various ways to make it more in line with what Mr. Moy wanted to teach and pass on to others. In my understanding from practicing this style of tai chi, the main differences in his style of tai chi as compared to classical Yang style tai chi are:

Much more stretching and a more pronounced turning of the waist. This is the main emphasis for beginners since practicing this way helps to open up all the meridians and tendons and joints of the body. For many Westerners, especially for ordinary every day people who may only practice once or twice a week, who Mr. Moy was trying to reach out to with his system, one might have to practice this way for many years before they had opened their bodies up enough to be able to start making their form less stretched out and open. Yes, stretching out excessively like this is not good form for fighting, but again, that was not Mr. Moy's emphasis. It is really only a stage in his system of tai chi, but realistically many every day people do not have the time or desire to practice often and regularly enough to ever advance too much beyond this stage to the next level. My understanding was one of Mr. Moy's later and primary teachers instructed Mr. Moy to add this emphasis of stretching to tai chi so that ordinary people could gain more realistic benefit from practicing tai chi. My own personal impression of this aspect of Mr. Moy's tai chi is that it is a kind of fusion of Yi Jin Jing and Tai Chi principles.

A unique spiral turning and extension and use of the spine in the movements, which students begin to incorporate and understand more as they progress to higher levels in their training of Mr. Moy’s style of tai chi. Although Chen style has silk reeling training to train in spiral body movement training, the spiral rotation and use of the spine in Mr. Moy's style of tai chi seems different and unique to me. I never thought to ask Mr. Moy when I studied with him where exactly he got this emphasis on spiral turning and extension and use of the spine from, but presumably he got it from one of his former martial arts teachers.

Mr. Moy did simplify some of the Yang style movements, but not in any way that takes away from the core benefits of tai chi.

I have witnessed a lot of ordinary every day people with all kinds of health ailments and other problems make big improvements after practicing Mr. Moy's taoist tai chi for some time, plus I attained many benefits myself from my own practice over the years, so I can attest to the benefits of this style of tai chi. I am not interested in a debate of the subject but just wanted to present my personal impressions and understanding of Mr. Moy's style of tai chi and teachings as coming from someone who did study directly with Mr. Moy in his organization in the past. I hope that helps clarify some things for some anyway.

Howdy.