oat1239

he is a "shaolin healing monk", the temple or school is in the UK and the healer is Caucasian. Wearing orange/yellow/red shaolin robes.

 

he grabs the hand of a patient and the patient start to shake uncontrollably. I did not know shaolin had "healer monks".

 

Maybe he is a student of Shi Delon? Shi Delon does that sort of thing in the UK.

http://www.shaolin.org.uk/en/chikung/

I practice a form of Spontaneous movement Neigung as do many people on this forum. Here are some benefits i have derived.

1. Inner Peace

2. Inner Bliss

3. Expansion of Awareness

-My 2 cents, Peace

 

Hi Old Green. Thanks for your feedback. It would seem that at least some people are inclined to lump all 'spontaneous movement qigong' into the same pile, but I am still inclined to wonder if there are not at least some notable differences between the different forms/styles. I am hoping that someone who has studied directly with Shi DeLon, or with a very similar form/approach/style (see the videos), will show up and comment on their experiences with this type of spontaneous movement qigong and related practices. Shi DeLon's form/style seems to evoke a very strong catharsis type reaction in at least some people, so it would be interesting to get the perspective from people who have experienced this directly as well. I wonder if students of Shi DeLon who have experienced this directly find the results to be beneficial in both the short term and the long term. It is one thing to produce some interesting effects in the short term, but whether it produces benefits that last or increase over the long term would be interesting to know. Maybe one day I will have the opportunity to visit the teacher/school and speak to people there directly, if the group is still active.

Those are definitely very interesting results. Something like this still has to undergo a lot of scrutiny from the scientific community to see if the results will stand up to inspection, and ideally these results would need to be shown to be independently replicable. It will likely take some time:

 

Antonio Ereditato, a spokesman for Opera, made it clear that while the team had looked hard for any measurement errors or other mistakes that could explain it, and found none, the results still needed careful checking: After many months of studies and cross checks we have not found any instrumental effect that could explain the result of the measurement. While OPERA researchers will continue their studies, we are also looking forward to independent measurements to fully assess the nature of this observation.

 

The Cern research director, Sergio Bertolucci, followed up with a similar comment: When an experiment finds an apparently unbelievable result and can find no artefact of the measurement to account for it, its normal procedure to invite broader scrutiny, and this is exactly what the Opera collaboration is doing, its good scientific practice."

"If this measurement is confirmed, it might change our view of physics, but we need to be sure that there are no other, more mundane, explanations. That will require independent measurements.

 

At least one physicist, John P. Costella, Ph.D. from Melbourne, Australia, is already stating that the result is based on a statistical calculation error (PDF file):

"I explain why today's claim of the OPERA group at CERN for having measured faster-than-light

neutrinos is based on an incorrect statistical calculation."

Why CERNs claims for faster-than-light neutrinos is wrong

 

This will likely remain a hot debate item for quite some time to come. It will be interesting to see if the results can hold up to intense scrutiny from the scientific community.

When energy rise to a specific level spontaneus movements occurs itself.

Even standing postures, bagua circle walking (B.K.Frantzis mentioned it) rarely sitting will introduce them. Your teachers are right.

Q

You seem very sure that you know all the different possibilities and permutations. I remain not so sure.

I had a lot of fun with Kellogg's when I passed by the 'family' home in Anne Arbour and I dug a little more into their history. Seems the bro's diverged upon the 'right' thing to do. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Harvey_Kellogg

Very interesting folks, the Kelloggs. Coincidentally, an acquaintence of mine mentioned to me last week that he had grown up as a Seventh-day Adventist and that he did not drink, smoke, or eat any red meat until he was an adult. Prior to that I had heard of the name Seventh-day Adventist but had never met anyone who was a member, nor did I know anything about what Seventh-day Adventist actually was other than being some sort of religion or church.

Well, experience with these methods, as well as methods that do improve the qi flow.

 

I see. Thanks for the comments. It's good to hear different perspectives and experiences.

Tell us about your expirience.

Hi Friend. I already have described it somewhat. My experience is mainly with taoist stillness meditation and some forms of tai chi and qigong. These days I am mainly practicing a system of taoist cultivation practice that mainly involves various standing postures, bagua circle walking, and sitting meditation. I have never practiced any forms of spontaneous movement qigong, but I am interested in learning more about them. I too have been told by some of my teachers that one should not intentionally pursue spontaneous movement in qigong, but these teachers were not teaching a system of qigong that specifically promotes spontaneous movement, although some mentioned that some spontaneous movement might sometimes arise. The stillness meditation starts with very little and leads to less and less.

It does or it doesn't change anything? The labelling? I'm not quite sure I understood the first part (I didn't :-)) but the second part was very interesting. Good post :-)

 

Special K was my favourite breakfast cereal, when I ate cereal. Now I shudder at the thought of Shreddies and I cower before Tony the Tiger And I despise Mini-wheat, especially with frosting. And I hate Pop Tarts.

 

I was just thinking that labels are only labels for convenience but the label doesn't change what is being labelled. Maybe I am wrong however. It has been noted that how we look at or approach things can somtimes at least change the very nature of how the thing appears, or at least it changes our interaction with that thing. For example, light can be demonstrated to be both a particle (photon) or a wave depending on how the experiment is constructed. The Heisenberg uncertainty principle states something like that the more certain we know the position of a subatomic particle the less certain we can know its momentum and vice versa. So, the more we focus on one aspect, the more uncertain we will be able to determine the other aspect. If labels tend to encourage a particular focus then maybe they do affect the outcome. So maybe I am wrong. On the other hand, maybe I didn't follow what you were saying at all.

 

They tend to put a lot of salt in cereal, and they sometimes also put a lot of sugar as well. The preservatives they put are probably not so good as well. Tony the Tiger was greaaaaaat. I always liked shredded wheat and corn flakes but the additives mentioned are probably not good for you. These days I prefer real oatmeal without sugar or salt. A good wholesome food.

qigong/page__p__218735__fromsearch__1entry218735

 

I want to add some poem for those advance here on Spontaneus movement.

Those may know what I wrote here.

 

"First there is nothing.

Then there is something

After it is stronger.

Later it seem has gone.

Then there is something again.

After it is more strong.

And things repat again and again"

 

Q

 

My experience is not all approaches are the same. Each has its own natural way or natural cycle, but not all are the same. In some cases movement might arise and fall and continue to cycle and in some cases one only knows less and less.

IMO/IME labelling something may or may not change it's way of interacting with you and vice-versa.

 

Hi special -K-. Sure, labelling something one way or another doesn't change how it interacts or how it affects us and vice versa, but it can help to make a distinction between different things that work in different ways. Running and jumping for example may have a lot of common principles behind them such as leg movement and flexing of muscles and that sort of thing, but they can help us achieve different things. If someone needs to get over an obstacle on the ground they might try jumping over it if it is not too large, but if a wild tiger is attacking them they might want to try running instead of jumping. Sometimes you probably would want to use a combination of the two for best results. Although things can appear similar, they may produce quite different results. This is why I am hesitant to lump all spontaneous movement qigong into one, and am also hesitant to jump to conclusions about any form of it despite what it might look like on the surface.

However, I am not wishing to prevent anyone from exploring and finding out for themselves.

 

Hey, no worries. I appreciate the feedback.

 

 

Whatever healing they are perceiving is not due to improved qi flow, because most of what you see in those videos is actually harmful to the qi (except for the deer exercise where you are essentially stomping on the ground).

 

I am wondering what lead you to the conclusion that is is definitely harmful to the qi and that any healing is not due to improved qi flow or the release of blockages? I am not saying I think you are necessarily not right, but just want to know what lead you to your conclusion?

You will sooner or later running into spontaneus movements when you do any energy practise without doing a spontanues movement qigong.

 

But this spontaneus movement will not last forever external.

If you live a life with less surpression than there is also less to release.

You will instead stand there like the rock but the difference is you move internal strong. Energy flow without obstruction and hinderance.

 

I have experienced strong shaking of muscles or in the dantian area and that sort of thing when internal energy is moving within, and I have seen one of my teachers practicing an advanced form of internal qigong that moved him through various postures and movements while he was in a deep meditative state, but his movements were serene and controlled and methodical and cyclical. Not at all like the frantic type of movements and reactions shown by many in the videos I posted here. This is really something quite different than I personally have ever witnessed before. It really seems to me that not all spontaneous movement qigong or spontaneous movements in qigong is the same. What the exact differences are I wouldn't know however. Thanks for the reply.

External should become internal with time of proper practise,

except the energy flow raise, the vibration raise and the quantity one deal is raised.

Spontaneus movement also occur with "normal" movement. When you are allowing to let go to follow the flow.

 

It is something that always occur in good Qigong practise but

it should neither seeking of the movements as restricting. As some will seek it out because ones teacher told that it is a good sign to release illness blockage,

at other times would say lead to loss of energy(feels uncomfortable)when movements are too hefty.

 

I have a poem written when I join this forum about Spontaneus Qigong.

But the search function is only for 12 month range. If I can find it I place it here

again.

 

Q

 

Hi Friend. I can't tell from your reply if you watched any of the videos I posted or not, or if you have direct experience with the type of sponataneous movement qigong that is shown in those videos? The videos show something quite beyond a person just having some occasional or minor spontaneous movement. Many of these people seem to move around very frantically or strenuosly and some make all kinds of screaming and groaning noises or start crying or laughing, and that sort of thing. Some go into spontaneous five animal form movements which are supposed to be connected with cleansing and balancing of the five elements/organs, as shown in the first video. I personally am not so sure that we can lump all spontaneous movement qigong practices into one. The claim is made in the videos that it is helping for clearing energy and emotional blockages and that sort of thing, so it may have its place and purpose in the overall grand scheme of things, if true. I still can't be sure what to make of this sort of practice.

In my opinion they are useless. Not good for health. Not good for energy, spirit, etc. It's interesting at first because it seems like something is working...but nah...nothing good comes of it.

 

I wonder if we should be putting all spontaneous movement qigong in the same boat?

I think it was the first video where some of the students gave first hand accounts of getting healed or getting improvement with various health problems or drug addiction problems. Whatever is going on, some students of the form taught in the videos claim to derive benefit from it.

My only question is: in the beginning of the first video. Why is there no one to catch these people when they fall?

 

Don't know. It appears that sometimes they use someone to catch people and sometimes they don't. Maybe it depends on how experienced the student is or what exactly is being done at the time?

No worries, HNJT.

 

I sometimes experience muscle shaking and twitching and that sort of thing, but I have never had my whole limbs or my whole body flailing around like is shown in these videos. This is really quite something else to what I have ever experienced or seen.

 

I wonder if anyone here has any direct experience with the sort of five animal spontaneous qigong that is shown in these videos? Did you practice long term? What were your experiences over time?

Long story short; I was worried about my back and didnt know anything i could do to help/fix it and decided to try 'experimenting' with movements and did what could only be described as spontanious T'ai Chi/Qi Gong ('chi kung'), as i moved around and shifted from stance to stance, position to position, not knowing what i was doing, only knowing.... it was working.

My only real advice is to try it out some time. First hand experience is the best knowable teacher.

 

Hi 'Hot Nirvana Judo Trend. Ok, the people doing the movements in the videos I posted above are not consciously moving at all from what is described and they are supposed to be going into some sort of REM-like or trance-like state as well. Not sure that would be exacrly the same as what you described. I personally would want to learn a lot more about the background and theory of this sort of practice before ever trying it, after seeing these videos, and I wouldn't want to try the sort of thing that is shown in the videos without the guidance of a teacher I really trusted. If I was closer to Shi DeLon (the UK) I would drop in and meet him and try to learn more, but he is quite far away. If I get the opportunity sometime I will definitely try to meet him and learn more about his five animal spontaneous qigong and other qigong.

The topic of spontaneous movement qigong was brought up in another thread regarding the Kunlun book. I don't want to take that thread off topic so I am starting a new thread on this instead. Is spontaneous movement qigong a good way to release energy and emotional blockages and imbalances or are people just opening themself up to negative influences? If a person didn't know what they were seeing in these videos they might well be inclined to assume mental illness or strong negative influence. Even someone who knows what they are seeing may still be inclined to think that this is some sort of strong negative influence.

 

Anybody here have personal experience with Shi DeLon and his spontaneous movement qigong? Anybody have definite negative experiences with spontaneous five animal qigong practices? I must say I don't know what

to make of this sort of practice. This sure is some very strange stuff.

 

Shaolin Qigong teacher Shi DeLon (based out of the UK).

Shaolin qigong qi emssion and spontaneous movement five animals qigong:

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3uo7_lhWpw&feature=related

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lY-zxzFoyAA&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDXknbPPfVw&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

 

 

 

 

This guy (a muslim) came to the conclusion that this sort of spontaneous practice (and even all qigong) is due to the influence of negative spirits or 'jinns'. His point of view seems biased as he tends to lump all qigong together, but he did describe a very negative personal experience here. I don't necessarily either agree or disagree with his conclusions but his experience is worth taking into consideration. Strange stuff.

Danger of Chi

 

 

 

-

Something like this would be hard for others who don't know you well and who can't interact with you in person to assess. You have previously mentioned feeling pressure from energy in your head or something like that. What all have you been practicing exactly? Explaining this could well be of help.

 

Here is my initial impression for what it is worth. What you are experiencing may posssibly be due to the effect of energy imbalances affecting your mind or your thinking. You wouldn't necessarily be able to recognize this for what it is if this is the situation. You can try sitting and relaxing completely while holding the palms of your hands over top of each other and facing inward over your navel area. Breath deep and relaxed and slowly through the nose and imagine any excess energy in your body gently finding its way back to your center area where it will be safely stored. You can also imagine that you are drifting in a small boat on a large calm and peaceful lake on a peaceful lazy day with your body feeling very calm and peaceful while you hold your palms over your center area. In these sorts of situations, using imagination in this way can help return excess energy to your center and could help balance things out if you are experiencing the effect of internal energy imabalance. Stopping any other meditation or qigong or other related practices in the mean time is probably a very good idea as well.

People often throw terms like qigong master and taoist or buddhist master around but that is really open to interpretation on a case by case basis. Regarding appearance, there are forms of internal qigong which cause changes in the body to occur over time and which may look to someone who is not familiar with this sort of thing like the person is out of shape or unhealthy, although in fact they may actually be in quite good health overall. The term qigong master is really often just used as a term nowadays to indicate that someone teaches qigong and doesn't necessarily mean that they are at a high level, although they may like to present them self that way. In my experience a lot of what people teach nowadays is often some modernized derivation of just some small part of an older traditional system or small parts of different systems, or is actually a relatively new practice altogether that may also have a lot of other unrelated stuff thrown in from many sources, even though the teacher may insist they are teaching some authentic system. That is not necessarily bad, but if the teacher is not completely open about what exactly they are teaching and where all of it really comes from then you have to wonder what they are up to. IMO, Qigong Master and Taoist Master or Buddhist Master are often just terms that many people use these days to help draw in business.

 

So anyway, it should not be too surprising that some very unhealthy looking people may refer to themselves as qigong masters or taoist or buddhist masters or whatever. Also some traditional systems such as buddhism or some forms of taoism may focus more on cultivating true nature or spirit and give less importance to the body. Something doesn't have to be traditional or old to be beneficial, but often what is being taught is only a small part of what a complete system would traditionally contain and also may have a lot of questionable things mixed in as well. I think where some people may get thrown off is that a given teacher may teach some qigong forms or practices that are quite helpful, so the student may be inclined to assume that everything else the teacher is teaching is also good and complementary , but that may not really be the case. If something doesn't seem right somehow then the use of discernment is probably a good idea, IMO.

My father has been into Eckankar for a couple years now. He has never forced anything upon me or tried to teach me anything of it. Today he asked me if I wanted to go to a seminar with him next weekend. I know it will make him happy if I tag along but I have some doubts. I know Eckankar is mainly about soul travel and astral projection and what not. To be honest, I'm kind of scared. All that astral projection stuff never really made sense to me and I don't want were I'm at right now to get messsed up. I however know it's good to be open to things so I will still go but I would like to know if any bums know anything about this spiritual path, Eckankar. Thanks a lot everyone (:

 

I was curious about the Eckankar group several years ago so I did some research into it. Its history is quite a messy story. The group was started in the early 60's by a guy named Paul Twitchell who claimed to be one of a long line of 'Eck Masters' who are here to teach spiritual cultivation according to this tradition. Twitchell went on to write various books on 'Eckankar', some of which were used as this group's primary religious teachings. Later on some members of this group noticed that some of the writings in these books by Twitchell were identical in large sections to earlier writings by a guy named Julian Johnson. A university student later investigated this further and found that the plagiarisms in some of Twitchell's books were actually quite extensive. Some of the main books that were plagiarized from were books by a guy named Julian P. Johnson who had studied Sant Mat (specifically 'Radha Soami') in India and wrote extensively about this and his experiences. At the time I was looking into Eckankar, I obtained copies of a few of Twitchell's books in question and compared to a couple of Julian Johnson's books ('With a Great Master in India' and 'The Path of the Masters') and confirmed for myself that there were in fact extensive plagiarims made by Twitchell from these writings, and I have seen evidence posted by others that Twitchell also plagiarized works from various other authors such as Kirpal Singh, Lama Govinda, Walter Russell, L. Ron Hubbard, H. P. Blavatsky, Alan Watts, etc.

 

It would seem that Twitchell, who was once a follower of L. Ron Hubbard (Scientology), used various esoteric books available at the time as a source to help write his own religion writings. Twitchell's writings appear to draw heavily from Julian Johnson's descriptions of Radha Soami, but also seem to have a lot other stuff thrown in from some of the other authors mentioned. At the time Twitchell did this, most people in the West knew next to nothing about Eastern religions and related, so Twitchell's writings probably seemed unique and mysterious to many followers joining the group, but in later years as more and more people began to read up more on such things they began to find numerous similarities and plagiarisms (some were extensive) made by Twitchell from other books. There were a number of people who left Eckankar when this was discovered, but some members stayed on and continued to downplay these significant plagiarisms. There used to be a number of personal accounts on line by former members of this group regarding this and other things that went on in Eckankar, but I don't know if all these accounts are still around on the net.

 

Since your father is apparently interested in this group, you may not want to mention this stuff to him unless you check into the details for yourself first and confirm what information is still out there on this, but I can confirm that I did personally compare a few of Twitchell's books with Julian Johnson's writings and I did find quite extensive word for word plagiarisms by Twitchell from Johnson's books. The other information you may find is based on accounts by various former members of this group, so that is much harder to confirm as fact. You may want to think carefully about mentioning any of this to your father if you think it might strain relations between you.

Hi AЯAB. I am sure you have thought a lot of this through already, but here's some more thoughts. Doing electrician work is actually a very good trade if you can get used to the work. You can make very good money at it once you have a few years solid experience at it. Depending on the company you work for, you don't necessarily have to work long hours. For example, commercial/industrial electricians may work set shifts. Also, don't kid yourself. An electrician is definitely a skilled trade. Once you get certified you would be in demand (unless the economy completely tanks, but even that is usually temporary). Anyway you quit so it sounds like you don't like that sort of work.

 

Another option you mentioned is to upgrade or finish your high school courses. A year and a half to finish or upgrade high school courses is not that long at all when you are only 18, and you can probably still get enrolled now. It will go by in a relative flash. If you finish high school you could decide your options for college or university. If you don't like heavy math stay away from engineering. Computer programming can pay very well if a person gets a degree and likes that sort of thing. If you aren't the techie type then you can think about whether you are more interested in things like business or arts or things like a physio-therapist or chiropractor or TCM specialist, etc. Lots of options when you are still young.

The article on Ni Hua Ching is by Mark Johnson and is entitled 'Ni Hua-Chings Americanization of the Eternal Breath of Dao'. It can be found in the 'Journal of Daoist Studies - Vol 3' as YMWong stated. Mark Johnson has a more detailed account of his experience learning under Ni Hua Ching in his book:

Life Is Divine Play: My Life and Training with Enlightened Masters

 

According to this article, Ni Hua Ching was a doctor of TCM and martial arts teacher and he also taught daoism in Taiwan. Mark Johnson was initiated into Ni Hua Ching's daoist sect in Taiwan before returning to California to help set up Ni Hua Ching's new center there.

 

Here's an excerpt:

"His lineage was called the “Union of Dao and Man” (Daoren heyi 道

人合一) while his particular sect went by the name of the “Eternal Breath

of Dao” (Da Dao hefeng tang 大道和風堂). It was an eclectic mix starting

with his father, Ni You‑San, a well‑respected physician from southeast

China who taught Master Ni most of his medical knowledge. Master Ni’s

earliest ties with formal Daoism came from a temple near his hometown

where he trained as a teenager. I once visited that temple outside Wenzhou

(see Fig. 1). The abbot told me they had strong ties with the White

Cloud Monastery in Beijing.

 

Master Ni also claimed an unbroken succession through various

later teachers to the medieval Highest Clarity masters Sima Chengzhen

(647‑735) and Tao Hongjing (456‑536). He certainly knew innumerable

styles of taiji quan, gongfu, and bagua zhang, and had unrivaled knowledge

of acupuncture, herbal medicine, Chinese astrology, and the Yijing.

He also believed in a strict daily regimen with high ethical standards.

 

Our practice in Taiwan was punctuated by a slew of psychic phenomena.

Master Ni would regularly intrude on our dreams and on several

occasions was seen in several places at the same time. Once he killed

a rat by just pointing his sword of exorcism at it. And once a turtle arrived

in the mail, sent by a construction worker who had never heard of

Master Ni but he sent the turtle because the turtle spirit told him to do so

in a dream.

Then there was the time when I fell asleep on the floor after editing

for nine hours and had a vivid dream of Master Ni leading me to a high

spiritual realm and putting me on trial. After many arguments back and

forth, a decision was handed down that I could continue training with

them. When I woke up, I saw Master Ni was standing over me. He said:

“You were allowed to stay with us by the skin of your teeth.” With that,

he turned, went into his room, and never mentioned that incident again.

 

Having completed the basics of our training, we were finally ready

for initiation in the spring of 1975. It was a very formal event. We started

the ceremony at 2 a.m. since it was the most auspicious time astrologically.

We brought flowers, food offerings, and spirit money to the altar,

where we offered them with numerous prostrations. Then we entered

the altar room on our knees with a letter of petition on our heads that

evoked a host of deities. Master Ni touched each of us on top of the head

and we walked around in an altered state for a few hours.

After our initiation, we began a new regimen that involved daily

exercises; the reading of incantations, and participation in a formal

weekly ceremony. Soon thereafter, we returned to the U.S. to prepare a

medical clinic and spiritual center for him. This resulted in Master Ni’s

main center, the “Eternal Breath of Tao” in Malibu near Los Angeles."

And now, my struggle is to continue to bring love into my home and to help my family realize that I do not have to be a Christian to know the truth.

With much love.

P.S. I am very happy to be here and to have found this community. I look forward to learning from all of you and hearing your stories. And if you have any questions/suggestions, please do post them.

 

Hi iamtheare. It is good to hear that your family is there for you. Maybe you don't need to struggle at all. Just giving love and being yourself should be enough. Everyone sees and does things in their own way. We can't change that. Just being yourself and being loving and accepting may be enough for others to understand you and accept you more in their own time and their own way, and vice versa. It can't really be forced. They may not ever fully get you but it seems they have already accepted you.

There is a lot written about the MCO, and if you read from various sources you might find that there is sometimes conflicting information as well. As near as I can gather what different sources describe as the MCO, right or wrong, is not always the same thing. Also, there is medical qigong, martial qigong, and spiritual qigong. They are all connected but views and approaches can vary quite a bit. In Taosim one takes the natural approach, so if you are trying to deliberately direct qi in some way to open the MCO then that would seem not to be such a natural approach and it could potentially lead to problems if something is not done correctly.

 

The MCO can open naturally on its own by sticking to basic practices and allowing progress to come naturally. Since there are many different approaches and goals, it would seem best to stick to one particular approach and also learn directly from a teacher that you trust, if possible. Mixing approaches may have the potential for problems. If you can't learn from a teacher in person, if the teacher at least makes themself readily available through workshops and email or phone, at least you still have guidance available. If the teacher teaches mainly through books and DVDs and is mostly unavailable otherwise, then that may not be so good. What do you do then if you have questions or run into problems?