fatguyslim

If you are this serious then I suggest you take the time to learn Chinese. If you are intelligent, single-minded, and dilligent, and your yuanfen suits the task, then you may be able to reach a level where you can begin studying these texts in classical Chinese in about two years. In less than three years you will be able to start getting through them without always having a dictionary on your lap. Not to mention, by that point texts in modern Chinese will by then be easy reads, and your language ability will open up many doorways to communication with fellow cultivators and teachers. You will also be freed from wondering what was lost or added by translators. One day you may be prepared to yourself offer the service you mention above.

 

I have read some of Liu Yiming's work in the original language and it is infinitely rewarding. A joy. Learning Chinese requires eating a lot of bitter... But as they say, 先苦后甜!

Haha I wish I had that kinda strength... I am surely building upto it! I am not in China and learning a language away fro the home country is hard job. Thats why me being in Ecuador is to study more text as it is far away from where my afflictions lie (external but very real to me) and also people here are humble and very kind. Thanks for your reply man, the plan is to learn the text one way or the other (my virtue is too low lol).

I like private messages, they are handy sometimes. But at the same time, I think this is a great discussion. Why should other people be deprived? If something is hard to say because it's not comfortable -- that I can understand. If that's the case, a private message is fine. Nonetheless, if we can share our deepest weaknesses with others, that's a good thing. Imagine an immortal who is afraid of something? Is that possible? So the less afraid (anxious/insecure) we are, the closer we move toward immortality (or more accurately, toward feeling as if we are immortal instead of being immortal beings who feel as if we are mortal).

 

Your description seems to involve a lot of external things, such as various countries, for example. This is interesting and is relevant. Nonetheless, it's hard to get a grasp of where the person is at in the spiritual sense by the geography of one's residence. The only thing I can determine for sure is that you are dead serious about your path.

 

Most notably what is missing is your vision of the future. If you can, try to relax and envision the best possible future for yourself. In that future, what is your life like? Can you describe even just one day of that life? I'm asking about your truest and deepest wish here.

 

The reason I ask is as follows. If someone is in the New York City and they want to go to Florida, I say "Go south." If someone is in the Mexico City, and they want the same thing, I say, "Go north." But if someone is in the New York City and they want to go to Toronto, I say, "Go north." So in other words, I won't be helpful to you until I learn what you want. If I don't know what you want, I'll just suggest whatever I want for myself.

Hey man thanks for your kind reply... The one day in my life in future is a seriously hard question. I know that now I am working with the mundande to get out of the mundane (building a sustainable house or what not). I am also aware that I am very weak and I am fooling myself if I say that I can practice the Tao in the midst of mundane. Without proper guidance from an enlightened being I am just acting willy nilly. I hope my future life is spent under a master who I find when I am ready to be a student. I have no virtue and I am trying my best to eliminate the self from everything that I put my effort into... ITS VERY HARD!!! So from what I gather I think cultivating virtue is my way of finding a teacher and through virtue I would be able to go through pain and suffering without a problem. I am not ready yet but I believe (through my own mindset) that being in Ecuador seems like a good starting point and life is not too mundane here. I hope this answers your question... I look forward to your reply!

I have no idea who Liu I-Ming is. So can you please describe what have you learned so far, especially the most important and the most life-changing aspects. Please use your own words and please avoid the sectarian jargon if possible. Try to use normal English to talk about your experience on the path.

 

Once you describe what you have learned and how your life has changed as a result, please describe your vision of the future. What kind of life do you envision for yourself? What do you want the most? What are you afraid of the most?

 

If you can type this up, I believe not only can I help you, but even just you typing all of that up will be an experience for you. You might even get your answer from simply formulating your question in a comprehensive and complete way.

Well where do you want me to start mate? I was introduced to the Way by a very dear friend of mine who asked me to read Tao Te Ching and see what it makes me feel. After reading Tao Te Ching I got the wrong idea of enlightenment. I thought that going into the mountains to find like minded people (I am not joking I almost made that step). Knowing this my friend warned me time and time again that I am being silly but I convinced myself that if I had to leave (I was running away from pain as I recently broke up with my girlfriend).

It was not until my friend forced me to read Awakening to the Tao, which by the way came across as a tight slap on the face. It opened my eyes and cleared up loads of doubts for me (I was a complete ignorant and self satisfied fool before I knew the Way). The book connected with me on a very powerful level because being from India originally I was pushed so much away from the spirituality after seeing countless forms of deceit and scheming. One thing I always knew was that spirituality is beyond any means of physical techniques or methods. This is where Liu I-ming (18th century Taoist immortal) stepped in, his words were as though I was meant to follow. He never once said that students should still their thoughts, or concentrate on energies through some movement, or eat herbs or plant based produce to enhance the life. He goes straight to the core of the celestial mechanism explaining how one should refine himself while in the midst of people and then once empty in mind and thought should one search for an enlighten one who can help then teach the firing process (again not physical technique).

His words are what I always try to follow. I recently moved from the UK to Ecuador (not in search of a teacher) to start a new life. As I mentioned earlier I am originally from India but I lived in the UK for last five years. I don't enjoy going back to India simply because when I go back the entanglements becomes so strong that it makes it harder to practice the Way. In the UK the power of Mundane is too strong and I had to worry about Visas and all the legalities just to survive on day to day bases where nothing good was being cultivated. I moved to Ecuador because I building a sustainable house here as simple as possible hence making this my place to read more text and help other (not for reward or merit) when in need. I know this way is not the perfect way but it works for me for now. I am here today but unsure where I will be tomorrow. The one thing that I can promise is that I wont leave the Way. I hope this will let you know what state I am in and what I lack in terms of knowledge. I am sure you have more questions just send me a private message and I will try and answer them. Cheers

As I am repeatedly asked by some readers /members here about my role on this forum , my answer is as before that I am just playing a role of a translator, translating some inaccessible Taoist materials from Chinese to English. If you find some of my ideas great, it is the original people who spoke them that are great, not me.

 

Anyway, you can keep sending me messages here, in public or private way; and, if I am capable , I will try answering them.

The thing is man you will find it absolutely soul destroying if I asked you to translate the whole text. I have a habit of reading the whole text and what you did there was a glimpse of how amazing the whole text would be. Its just that I am unsure how to go about this to be honest.

oh, I don't know Chinese, it was just for reference if I ever get interested in learning.

 

Anyway, I wonder if Fabrizio at goldenelixir.com could help translate Liu I-Ming's writings.

Aye I agree with you someone really needs to translate this or I will spend all my life learning Chinese and then one day translate it lol.

Although quite difficult , I try to give literal translations for those possible:

 

2)The immortal person on Kun side;

3)The Golden Old man;

4) To live and to kill; Making use of the chance secretly;

5)The superb virtue; the inferior virtue;

 

Any of the above jargons is a big topic, so I only choose the second one,"the Immortal Person on Kun side " to explain, in Liu's own words in the book "Arguments on cultivating the truth ":

 

( My translation)

 

A disciple asked: " Pre-heavenly qi is formless and invisible , once we lost it, how can we re-capture it ?"

 

The sifu answered: " All the secrets of Taoist alchemy lies here. So secret it is to be safeguarded that , inversely it makes the Taoist legacy nearly lost . Isn't it true that when you lose an object, you go back to the place it is lost to find ? The loss of the pre-heavenly qi is due to the rise of Yin, so you go back to the pace where Yin arises to find it ; In fact, it is already there ; it is unnecssary to go other places to find it. As the I-Ching says: ' No need to go far away to search for it , it is already inside of you , yet dependent on how well you polish your own virtue.'

 

Anyway, in order to grasp the pre-heavenly qi, the key lies in our capability of meeting the right Person; without this Person, hardly can our pre-heavenly qi return. As a Taoist master said:

 

' Taoist medicine of immortality comes from the South West, which is called the location Kun . In order to locate it , we have to rely on the right Person . So clearly I have told you this, you should memorize it; what I am afraid is that even when you come across Him in future , you don't recognse Him.'

 

In fact, without the keys provided by their sifu, hardly can people recognice that Person. "

 

 

(Translation ends)

I am so moved by these sayings mate, they hit me at my core and wakes me up. Can you please send me a pivate message with your email address or skype I WOULD LOVE TO SPEAK WITH YOU MATE. You are good translator and I humbly ask for your kind help in this path. I have no Chinese background (which I sincerely wish I did), I don't even know where to start. This blew me away the most "Isn't it true that when you lose an object, you go back to the place it is lost to find?" you are good at this man. I look forward to your reply. Thanks

what's the link for the chinese text?

http://www.worldcat.org/identities/lccn-n85-331645

I think this link shares all the knowledge that Liu shared with the world. I can' believe how lucky you are mate... I sometimes think that without learning Chinese I wont get anywhere!

I want to add that Liu I Ming was/is part of the Longmenpai.

http://en.daoinfo.org/wiki/Liu_Yiming

 

You may ask them specific Question to clarify the things you have read so far.

 

Q

Man I am not sure if they will answer to my questions? I don't even know who to ask the questions? By the way what may help are these books mentioned above by exorcist_1699. Have you had any luck finding them? I found the Chinese text but not the translation. Cheers

Liu Yi Ming's(劉一明) best book , also his most famous one , in fact, is called "Arguments on cutlivating the truth " (修真辯難) . The book is also one of the few best Taoist writings ever written in the Ching Dynasty . Maybe only 2 or 3 other writings in the same legacy can claim equal to or better than it . For examples: the famous " Chanting the truth of Tao"("唱道真言" );

 

Significance of the "Argument" is that through a conversation between a sifu and his disciples, happened one night in the late 18th century on a high mountain in the Gansu Province , Liu explained to us nearly all Taoist jargons in an explicit and precise way that never had other Taoists writers done before; Liu , as a master who is familiar with Buddhism , Confucian ,Taoism and I Ching ,and gets very great achievement in Taoist alchemy, of course can illuminates those concepts in a much indepth way that hardly others can match. Here, I just raise few of the important and repeatedly mentioned ones :

 

1) 玉液還丹

2) 坤方不死人

3) 金公

4) 生殺盗機

5) 上德下德

 

These concepts, keys they are , unfortunately only known to very few of the Western readers .

 

When we compare the book to his contemporaries' , say the Wu-Liu(伍柳) School's writings, , Liu 's(劉) looks superior in the senses that its explanations of Taoist alchemy are clearer , more coherent and systematic . By saying so , it does't necessarily mean Liu Yi Ming's gong is higher than Liu Huan Yang's(柳華陽) ( both are unmarried for whole life,but Liu Hua Yang becomes a monk when he was just a boy..)

This comment blew me away the most... I have never heard of these books and I have no idea how to get hold of them either? If anyone reading this post has these books can you please share it with us or at least share a link as to where we can get them? I believe these texts have not been translated in English if yes then who translated them? Any information on these texts would be a blessing man.

No don't sound so desperate as you even said liu struggled so it definitely isn't easy. You need to resolve karma and everything and inevitably go through many experiences or struggle and even though you were doing the wrong thing, once you realise, you learn from these experiences which is why they are necessary if you are to cultivate the tao. If your focus is on tao and virtue alone and have faith in it you will not be confused or sidetracked by practices or techniques not suitable for you. Rather, the practice that should be done is letting go and learning to not resist change at all levels. There are numerous practices that can achieve this, since it is all about what is happening internally, not any "technique". The only way this could be of your own mindset is if you are forcing it and you should learn to recognise when you are using your own mindset and when you are not.

In order to do this, and to understand what to do and follow the tao te ching or anything, you should stop worrying about yourself and finding a teacher and what will happen to you if you dont find the right teacher and how you should go about cultivating the tao. i believe it is mentioned that it all begins with refining the self and not attaching to your own self but properly practicing virtue and compassion, and through this you will learn to not use your human mind which will lead you into confusion. Don't ask how am i going to be ready, just do what you want while not attaching to yourself. Be not resisting change happening right now and stop worrying about the future. It doesn't matter if you practice something because if your mind isn't sidetracked from tao and virtue by any desire or passion for anything other, you won't be led to do a false practice and you will see if a practice isn't suitable for you. Since you have read those books ,you have an idea.

You are cultivating 24/7 so don't be scared to seek out a teacher or any practice. You don't have to go all the way to china as it mostly depends or yourself, not anything else. The practice is merely a deeper focused extension of your cultivation that can help you work through blocks you may have, so don't make a distinction between your everyday life and your "practice".

Basically, you are practicing all the time so constant refinement of the self. The actual "practice" qigong /meditation/tai chi helps you do this. Any is fine as long as it is the internal state of letting go, of a pure and tranquil mind and spirit that is most important. Thats why its asolute non-resistance. If you aren't doing that then you yourself are making it false practice.

There may be many teachers and even if it wasn't the right teacher, you will learn from the teacher and reflecting on this, anything that will increase your understanding, so you are more "ready" and maybe bring you closer to the true knowledge. You are overthinking this finding the true teacher, who knows how many teachers you will find before? This is the work of your mindset already that is bringing you into confusion

I totally agree with you my friend but it also says in text that one small mistake can set you off into more confusion. Now I am not scared of confusion or I am scared of failing along the way. I don't know the true arena of failing where after failing I could learn from it. Its like I am in constant turmoil sometimes but sometimes clarity is off the roof (it could be my true yang rising or could be a layer of my human mind only a teacher can fathom that out). I know that finding a teacher is not gonna happen overnight or if its ever gonna happen in the usual way. You are bang on when you say about the virtue, how true virtue is when there is no self involved so I am going to practice that. Thanks for your help my friend I am definitely work on this issue.

hi there i have the thomas cleary translations compilations. Volume one and volume two taoist translations which was a very good deal since they include 3 or so translated books in each volume. I believe liu i ming made commentary on a few of those texts, he did not actually write them. Understanding reality and inner teachings of taoism they were called. I personally found these writings immensely helpful since liu i ming provides commentary on the symbolic language that is very hard to understand and there have been numerous interpretations of what they mean.

It know what you mean when you say it tells to stay away from certain practices as a lot of the translated texts and their commentaries talk about the way of absolute non-resistance, advocating internal alchemy while living in society, not just living in the mountains and meditating all day.

This is opposed to the other numerous interpretations of the symbolic language which represent very different things depending on what type of practice one is doing. Some have been meaning to perform complex circulating of energy and sexual cultivation which must be imparted to you by a master.

when i read the texts and the commentary i felt i did understand what was being said, through my own experiences.

I also feel it has a lot of similarities to the information in bruce frantzis' work as well as the tao te ching. The focus is on cultivating the tao through increasing your wisdom and virtue so that you can perceive the nonduality of things and how one should neither attach to emptiness or form but see it as one, and only then i believe is real knowledge combining with conscious knowledge.

Since it doesn't meantion using the mind to circulate energy, If you are confused then dont guess what this or that means, as eventually you do understand more. Once you understand something you know you don't physically move away from a mundane life, rather you live among the mundane but your internal state is not. Then you use your everday life to cultivate your virtue and tao along with meditation. Whether or not you find a teacher for this way, it all depends on that

I agree with you but as you might have read Liu constantly urges students to look for genuine teachers, which if you believe it or not are impossible to find in this mundane 21st century. The time when he wrote this text was 18th century and he struggled his whole life to become an immortal. It wasn't after three masters that he finally got the true knowledge and as he says "After more than twenty years, I finally knew myself; after a hundred thousand refinements, for the first time I climbed up into the Ark." I always look at the line "after hundred thousand refinements" and laugh to myself that I have definitely have more than that to refine.

Man I can't explain how important this is for me... My friend and I are the only ones who stick to what Liu says and try to practice what he says but its very hard. Liu even says "One should go along with what one desires and should gradually bring it from disharmony to harmony." Now it's all well and good in the text but how would one begin with doing that? It's so true, and right in front of me but i can't fathom it. Tao Te Ching says a master appears when the student is ready. Well how am I going to be ready?

Any practice or techniques I may use would be my own mindset and it will only put me into more confusion. My friend almost tried doing that when he went to China and he was internally devastated as how he did not understand any of it. We can't fathom true from false and any attempt at practicing something would be giving up ones strength.

I have never shared this with anyone through the medium of internet and I am thinking would I get screwed over for this or will I get some knowledge to break through my ignorance? I am open to a good discussion guys.

Thanks

Well then, care to share what these other books are?? I didn't realize so much was translated.

 

Hopefully some of the more dedicated Nei Gong practitioners here can help you out.

The books include Awakening to the Tao (his own composition Liu I-Ming, you can't put a price on this book), Understanding Reality (Chang Po-Tuan commentary by Liu I-Ming), Inner teachings of Taoism (which includes Four Hundred Words on the gold pill by Chang Po-Tuan commentary by Liu I-Ming), Journey to the west (short commentary by Liu I-Ming like a page explaining how to read Journey to the west), The Taoist I Ching (amazing commentary by Liu I-Ming a true gem in terms of I Ching commentaries it also include the text from the yin convergence), Vitality, Energy, Spirit (I would stick to what Liu I-Ming and Chang Po-Tuan share in this book). Liu has also done a commentary on Triplex Unity, Tapping the Lines (Qiaoyao ge), The Hundred Character Inscription, The Rootless tree (Wugenshu). I am sure there must be more books but they never got translated into English.

I get so excited when I type stuff like this its like I really want to go ahead and look for a teacher but with my human mind is that even possible in this 21st Century when false has reached its peak and real has retreated back into hiding so that only genuine students can reach it? I don't know I NEED HELP!!!

I've been going back to this book over and over as well. Absolutely one of the most impactful books for me. If you haven't already, I would recommend picking up Cleary's compilation "Vitality, Energy, Spirit." It has a lot of contemplative literature similar to Awakening To The Tao.

 

I'm not a master, or much of a devoted student, so I wouldn't have much guidance, other than to find a devoted Qi Gong teacher that practices Internal Alchemy or Nei Gong. Another good starter for Taoist living is Daniel Reid's "The Tao of Health, Sex, and Longevity" though I would venture to guess Liu I Ming practiced abstinence - there is still some essential stuff in there.

 

You might also want to look in to Dragon Gate Sanctuary and other Dragon Gate schools as they seem to be the most reliably pure lineage to Taoist Alchemy that will teach the uninitiated.

My friend and I have almost all the books by Liu I-Ming that have been translated by Cleary but we don't know if the translation is to the point. Even though Cleary is not like other translators he still translates the text like a scholar. The words are not very clear in certain context. I tend to follow what Liu says about various practices and techniques, and try to stay away from them. I am not saying that they don't work, I am just going by what the master says. I was hoping to connect with someone who could guide us towards the right direction so that we don't end in more confusion.

Hey everyone, I am posing a message on this forum to connect with anyone who has read Liu I-Ming's texts and who follows his teachings. I have been reading his text for 2 years now and I have to admit that being an Indian and being immersed in Indian culture for most of my life I have never came across any genuine teachers or anyone who could guide toward the truth. This made me push away from the Indian way of spirituality and I was shut off from the whole idea of spirituality for a long time. I was introduced to the text by a very genuine friend of mine who till this day has helped me massively in understanding the text and also learning through the process of helping. Liu's text has clicked with me the most and through his teachings I have left my mundane life that I had in Britain and have moved away to seek for more answers.

Me ad my friend have now come to a point where we don't know what the next step should be. I am hoping to get a reply from someone with more understanding of the alchemical text. If you are such a person then please send me a private message or just post a reply and I will get back to you.

Thank you

Hey everyone, I am posing a message on this forum to connect with anyone who has read Liu I-Ming's texts and who follows his teachings. I have been reading his text for 2 years now and I have to admit that being an Indian and being immersed in Indian culture for most of my life I have never came across any genuine teachers or anyone who could guide toward the truth. This made me push away from the Indian way of spirituality and I was shut off from the whole idea of spirituality for a long time. I was introduced to the text by a very genuine friend of mine who till this day has helped me massively in understanding the text and also learning through the process of helping. Liu's text has clicked with me the most and through his teachings I have left my mundane life that I had in Britain and have moved away to seek for more answers.

Me ad my friend have now come to a point where we don't know what the next step should be. I am hoping to get a reply from someone with more understanding of the alchemical text. If you are such a person then please send me a private message or just post a reply and I will get back to you.

Thank you