fatguyslim
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Posts posted by fatguyslim
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The sage does not distinguish between himself and the world;
The needs of other people are as his own.
(this is understandable as Buddhist unity and compassion)
He is good to those who are good;
He is also good to those who are not good,
Thereby he is good.
(again, unconditional compassion)
He trusts those who are trustworthy;
He also trusts those who are not trustworthy,
Thereby he is trustworthy.
I've read this translated as having faith in the faithful as well as the unfaithful and by doing so he gains in good faith. Basically, always working towards the positive outcome, similar to how Jesus had faith in the worst sinners which allowed him to bring them into "the fold," seeing the good in everyone.
..edit... also relevant to this I think is that trust in the untrustworthy can make them more trustworthy. The thing with the sage, too, is that he doesn't really discriminate since his central integrity does not change, like the trigram of water -- solid yang line surrounded by two flexible yin lines = the center does not change though the outer is flexible. Next time you have to walk past a group of intimidation-addicts, hold "no-thought, no-mind" you'll probably find that they barely notice you. I think this is illustrative of the verse.)
The sage lives in harmony with the world,
And his mind is the world's mind.
So he nurtures the worlds of others
As a mother does her children.
(the sage does not put himself above others and so he nurtures others as he would his own children, or himself. He does not see himself as above anyone so he sympathizes and empathizes with them. Reading other verses will show that the sage would not succumb to extremes of sorrow, joy, or any other emotion, partially because extreme emotions deplete the spirit, cloud the mind, etc...)
I think Harmonious Emptiness explained it very well... "Everything" you just summed the chapter 41 for me
41. When Superior People Hear of the Way
When superior people hear of the Way,
They carry it out with diligence.
When middling people hear of the Way, it sometimes seems to be there, sometimes not.
When lesser people hear of the Way, they ridicule it greatly.
If they didn't laugh at it, it wouldn't be the Way.
So there are constructive sayings on this: The Way of illumination seems dark, the Way of advancement seems retiring, the Way of equality seems to categorize; higher virtue seems empty, great purity seems ignominious, broad virtue seems insufficient, constructive virtue seems careless.
Simple honesty seems changeable, great range has no boundaries, great vessels are finished late; the great sound has a rarefied tone, the great image has no form, the Way hides in namelessness.
Only the Way can enhance and perfect.
Please don't attack the text if you don't understand the meaning... I bet there is not even a single person on the forum who can say I know what is right and wrong, good and bad, true and false in this messed up 21st Century! Stop making examples and stop making judgements... DO YOU THINK GOOD AND BAD IS EASY TO FATHOM?
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Well along different lines all are not ready for to much light (so to speak) and that is well since harm can be done. A simple analogy: a plant seed is not ready for the full force of the sun or wind, and it needs to be covered or "hidden" in moist earth as a place to begin its life.
Om
Well said mate I am humbled by your statement... I think if goodness is talked about then there is no fault instead that brings virtue even in weakness but it has to be true goodness and not the fake goodness where people just try to convince themselves of something that they believe in. I think this kinda agrees with what you replied to Harmonious Emptiness in the comment above. Cheers
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Hey, yeah, please do! Cleary's translation is probably more readable than the one on that link, and it's always good to have more angles. I'm assuming the transfer can all be done digitally...
Yes it will be, I am currently tying Understanding reality by Thomas cleary and I have "The Essential Tao" completed few months ago. If you want them then let me know your email address by sending me a private message. Cheers
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Although since we are mostly walking around "asleep" anyway it is not hard to keep things "secret" even though such are in plain sight but often or mostly missed or invisible to everyone, including ourselves. (unless they happen to be one of those exceedingly few people who are fully awakened while the rest of us 7 billion people are "dreaming openly" with great gusto...which btw is mostly my condition. :-)
It's true what you are saying here and we are not at the stage where there anything to hide anyway (we are not enlightened). The fact is Tao is all about open practice with truthfulness and intent as its driving force. Its hidden when one has achieved it, but before that students all over the world are going to investigate the true principles which cannot happen as Liu would say without poking every subtlety. So yeah you are allowed to ask questions, there is nothing to hide for any of us (if we do hide then we hiding our acquired habits that's all). This is what I believe lol
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Which text is this from?
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Hmmm. I looked around to see what other books have been written by the Yellow Emperor but nothing by that name.
Actually, chapter 5 of the the book I mentioned is called "The Great Treatise on the Interaction of Yin and Yang" and it's a lot longer than the other chapters. It also talks a lot about interactions of Yin and Yang (hence title) and so might be referenced a lot when talking about these interactions (as Liu I Ming does quite a bit). Convergence means two things coming together, so I'm not sure what else Yin would be converging/interacting with other than Yang (though it discusses Yin within the yin interactions too), so maybe it could be called the "Treatise on Yin and Yang convergence" as well. This chapter is the beginning of book 2 of The Yellow Emperor's Classic of Internal Medicine and the other chapters in book 2 discuss yin and yang convergences. I think that would be the one he's talking about. I don't think The Yellow Emperor would gets more in depth on these convergences than Ch'i Po does.
I just found out from my friend that it is a small book of like 20 pages and its in one of the Taoist classics from Thomas Cleary. He is going to send me the scanned pages soon. So I will be able to put it in text form and share it with you if you want?
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I am... FAULTY.
If I add more to this, then I add more to my faultiness!!!
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"The Yin Convergence" sounds familiar. Was that mentioned in "Vitality, Energy, Spirit (Cleary)" or Awakening To The Tao? It might be different translation of "Chapter 6: Treatise on the Parting and Meeting of Yin and Yang" from The Yellow Emperor's Classic of Internal Medicine. Do you have a quotation? I'll see if it's in there (the chapter is 2 pages).
The book I have is "The Yellow Emperor's Classic of Internal Medicine; trans. with intro by Ilza Veith" In chapter 2 of the translated part, the Yellow Emperor (please allow me to correct myself) is given some prescriptions for each of the seasons by Taoist master Ch'i Po...
Part of the lengthy introduction is here:
The Yin convergence is mentioned both in Understanding Reality and Awakening to the Tao. In Understanding Reality Liu mentions the importance of both Tao Te Ching and The Yin convergence. Thats why I have been looking for it lol.
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my gut on this is that he saw so many people trying to cultivate the way by external means thinking that they could breathe their way in, while not cultivating the virtue that they needed in order to be accepted once they got there. Check recent topic "what is Shen-spirit?" Some interesting ideas came about concerning Shen cultivation which resonated for me with Liu I Ming's writing.
I see it the same as how Native Americans will not share some sacred dreams with anyone but their mentor because in doing so will lose the power they gained by it. This seems to be one of those things that reaches other areas of life as well.
like above, it's good to remember that keeping our power secret can make it more powerful, while displaying it often ends in us losing it, whether to jealous competitors, or perhaps higher powers which decide we are not fit to carry them.
Maybe you wrote this before reading the bit about the Yellow Emperors prescription for summer.. but read that again (in the original manual too. chapter 2 I think).
Now, I can't speak for the masters, but enjoying life is NECESSARY no matter what path is cultivated. The difference between most people's enjoyment of life and that of the Immortals is the reason they enjoy it. Part of Taoist development is to be conscious of WHY we feel or act the way we do, and if it's for bad reasons then do it for the right reasons, or recognize their worthlessness and let them go. Again, check the Yellow Emperor's prescription -- enjoy life! (.. especially during Spring and Summer
)I was wondering you can tell me where can I find "The Yin Convergence" by the Yellow emperor? I have never heard of the book Yellow Emperor's prescription for summer. Where can I find these texts? I am glad you came along to help me mate. Look forward to more conversations in the future. Cheers
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Well, Liu I Ming speaks of cultivating the "real body" and "spiritual embryo" but he does warn against trying to do so by cultivating sexual energy. This may have been something that he was seeing a lot in his day, of people ingesting all sorts of aphrodesiacs and trying to increase sexual energy in order to create the "real body" or "spiritual embryo." One thing to consider is that Liu I Ming's writing is very influenced by Buddhism, and Buddhism tends to be a lot more anti-passions rather than transmuting passions into spirit and using their energy for other purposes.
He not only mentions about sexual energy but also all the other practices, including yoga, breathing exercises, kundalini and even sitting in quietude. I know he comes from the Buddhist and Confucius background but if you see how got onto the path is very interesting. In his book Awakening to the Tao he even says that he has seen both true and false Taoism which indicates that after being sent away by his first teacher to fulfill moral duties Liu I-ming travelled all over China in Confusion (he even says that he regretted leaving his first teacher for which he suffered 20 years of confusion).
One difficulty with following Liu I Ming's teaching is that he does not write down to entire methodology for cultivating the "real body." He does write about how to nurture the spirit however, without trying to stir up sexual energy, and that (if I were to try sum it up in brief) is by stillness, concentration, and the Taoist virtues of nurturing the spirit rather than being distracted by fame, profit, doubt, desires, and emotions of anger, joy, and fear.
Exactly thats why I was stressing on the fact about finding a true teacher in my previous posts because he doesn't really reveal the mechanism. I mean in all fairness who would actually do that? Chang Po-tuan did it three times and in return he lost it three times. It wasn't till he was in his 80s that Chang Po-tuan received it again from his 4th master.
This can be done even on a busy street when we learn to "see with ears, hear with the nose, smell with the hands, and hear with the nose." What does that mean? focus internally rather than getting caught up in the senses. I used to do this every morning when I had to walk through the financial district on the way to work. It was busy as could be, but rather than get distracted, I would just look at the ground and let my ears guide me, let my body smell the wrong ways, and my eyes only sense the environment. Aside from opening up the sense of hearing, smell, and intuition, this allowed me to keep the internal focus that contains spirit inside the body rather than having it cool off from inattention.
I have to be honest this is what I do most of the time too. I try to focus on what I do rather than regretting it later on. Of course there are many things that I do which are not not well thought of (mainly things that I desire like doing Parkour, music, showing off flips and what not) and after I do them I don't even realise what I did was appropriate or not. Its just that when I read the text again it clicks to me like "ahh thats what I did when I was doing such and such..."
This method is quite different from vipassana which would suggest to be aware of every thing we come in contact with, but it allows for a deeper awareness and concentration that allows cultivation in these settings. In fact, when I don't have such a hectic environment, I'm less driven to internal focus when walking around.
When you continue to "heat the fire" like this, focusing internally, spirit is stable and so it can grow. Passions, desires, fears, worries, lusts, disgusts, all "cool the flame" and dissipate that spirit.
Aye its the same with me... When I am around few and few people, I tend to enjoy the nature and its magical beings but I guess thats not what I should do. I do let go of the fire when I get distracted by my own version of beauty and also when I do things that I overly enjoy. I don't think there is anything wrong in enjoying something but I am sure when I do certain things its not in harmony with the path (I could be wrong and it would helpful if you can shine some light on this).
It's important, like my tag says, to be able to focus on the moment and abandon would-be intruding desires. When I feel uncertain in some situation and it threatens to "cool my flame" I just abandon all other attention and do what I'm doing in totality. This results in me being totally aware of my environment and anything that might have led to subtle avoidance of my feelings. Anything that causes me to abandon my attention will be recognized, like maybe some dude in the corner who I realize was watching me -- now I notice him and not avoid his gaze but engage the discomfort and deal with the situation (like just noticing the guy who then stops watching me and creating awkwardness).
Practicing like this, I think, is great preparation for higher cultivation because it gives experience holding on to "the flame" which many people at higher levels are want to do in daily life.
In addition to this, I remember to follow the Yellow Emperors advice for behavior in the summer, to walk around like everything is beautiful and perfect outside. See that the rainy day is actually beautiful, the dark and windy day strengthens and provides alternation to the climate, the birds, trees, sun, smells, everything is beautiful and a wonder of nature. This is part of how to develop a stronger health for the following seasons, and it brightens the mind, and thus the spirit.
I understand that you're pretty wary of false teachers, and I would guess they're probably all over the place in India where spiritual knowledge is common-place. It's the same with things like Voodoo or Santeria -- if you're looking for it, every person that comes up to you will say "oh, you're in great danger, I will perform a ceremony for you" so it's really important if you want to get to the beauty of the matter to know and expect this type of thing to happen, but I know you've already become well aware of all the detours. (btw, I've never practiced these religions.. just borrowing the example, though I do know the true practice of them is VERY different than even most natives to the region believe it to be..
)Everything that you have just mentioned here is powerful stuff!!!
Thanks again buddy
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Ahh... yes! You are absolutely right. I think the point I was trying to make wasn't that "all is achieved through sitting" that's nonsense, we've all heard the story about the monk and the clay tablet. My point was that I achieved a greater understanding of the world. In fact when I had my greatest "realization" it wasn't meditating, but rather laying on my bed reading a book. What I think now is that when we are aware of who we are and our connection to others, that ultimately we will be able to behave in a way that allows us to work in harmony with others. In my own life I find that when I am paying attention to what others are saying and doing and what I myself am saying and doing, that things are much more harmonious.
It's very hard to interact with the world without emotions, desires, thoughts, etc. I don't necessarily think we are supposed to interact with the world in that way, rather meditation is a tool that allows us to understand those interactions more clearly. I think many people have this odd perception of detachment being some kind of Vulcan like state of mind, when that's not entirely what it is (imo), rather detachment is the ability to understand that those things that are around you are impermanent, so you can still enjoy coffee, baseball, flowers, and poetry, it's just you realize the actual nature of those things and by understanding this you are able to accept them for what they actually are. At least that's my own experience.
Aaron
I think you are BANG ON mate!!! Detachment is not getting out of it but rather being in midst of it. We lose our greatest working tool if we detach ourselves from others (thats what I believe lol). Its like how Liu I-Ming says, "Guiding desires from disharmony to harmony so that the desires softens, vanishes or transforms." Of course all of what you mentioned like baseball, flowers, coffee and poetry is the Tao without it we are trying to cook an empty pot lol.
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Hello Fatguyslim,
First I like your nick, second for twenty some-odd years I practiced meditation much as you did (and I still do), stilling the mind and not forcing anything, but allowing things to occur, to rise and fall, for the silence of the mind to come, not out of force of will, but of its own cause. It took years for me to achieve this consistently, but I was able to. For me the best meditation is when there is only emptiness, no thought, no emotion, nothing but the absence of everything. I'm sure that you know what I'm talking about. It is when you are in the absence of everything that you fully understand what everything really is, our connection to each other, that there is no separation at all, that everything is just "It".
Again, excellent question. Now if you ask what I achieved in this meditation, I achieved nothing except I understood that I am still what I am, only my perception of reality has changed.
Aaron
I am glad that you have achieved a higher state of understanding in your life but I have few words from the sage called Huang Yuan-ch'i taken from the Introduction of the I Ching (The Taoist I Ching by Thomas Cleary). It says...
"People are happy when there is quiet and vexed when there is commotion. Don't they realise that since their energy has already been stirred by the clamor of people's voices and the involvements and disturbances of people and affairs, rather than use this power to be annoyed at the commotion, it is better to use this power to cultivate stability. An ancient said, "When people are in the midst of the disturbance, this is a good time to apply effort to keep independent." Stay comprehensively alert in the immediate present, and suddenly an awakening will open up an experience in the midst of it all that is millions of times better than that of quiet sitting. whenever you encounter people making a commotion, whether it concerns you or not, use it to polish and strengthen yourself, like gold being refined over and over until it no longer changes colour. If you gain power in this, it is much better than long drawn-out practice in quietude."
I am not aiming to be better than anyone or take shortcuts... I am just going by the text I read and what I have read so far has accorded immensely with what I have believed since I was very little (When I think of my childhood I get glimpses of being more powerful than my current state of being). I have no current experience to say I am practicing the Tao the right way or maybe I am too stupid to even think that I am doing a practice. I do love hearing people share their experiences in whatever they practice and never once have I imagined what it would feel like to experience such experiences.
I do love your words on how you don't experience any emotions, desires, thoughts etc. But does that stay the same when you are around people or when you are dreaming while asleep?
Cheers
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I have one important question to all of you and I am not sure what reply I might get so just before I put my question forward, I would like to share some words. I believe everyone here has been practicing one practice or the other for a long period of time. May it be meditation (I am from originally from India and when I was little I was taught the meditation is something that one should close their eyes and still their thoughts but you might have a different definition which I would love to here), Qigong, breathing exercises, yoga or some other physical practice.
So since I was kid I have always been pushed away from most of these exercises (mainly because the religion was forced on me from a very young age). I have to be true I haven't most of them because the text I read doesn't suggest I should. I am only 24 and I believe my life experience is nothing compared to yours, so I would love to hear what you have to say after you read my question. My main purpose on this forum is to learn...
So with no disrespect to anyone, my question to everyone is. Is there anyone on this forum who practices the Tao without deliberately closing their eyes for few hours a day, without concentrating their mind on various organs inside the physical body, without worrying too much about the health and well being of the physical body, without forcing the Tao, without thinking that one could achieve Tao all by oneself, without going away from society to practice the Tao, without and god knows how many other withouts that I can't think of at the moment?
I am being overly forward here because I am in a lot of confusion which I want to get rid off one step at a time. Now I urge you not to reply in just words, metaphors or complicated English (I am an Indian and I have to be honest I am not that good in English). Please give me your life experience and I will learn from that... Thanks and I look forward to your reply
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Though some good teachers will say that you should forget about books and just practice what you learn from themselves, I really think that we need to continue studying/teaching ourselves even when we find a great teacher. No teacher knows everything and everyone learns a bit more in different directions even within the same tradition, so I think it's important to continue reading and studying so that you know what you want to pursue learning.
Just because one teacher doesn't have all the answers for us, they could still expedite our progress immensely and then another teacher will pick up from there and bring us in the next direction until we get where we're trying to go. Continuing to learn and study on your own is needed for us to know which exits we need to take to get where we're trying to go. As long as you keep driving toward that goal you'll eventually land in the right town and find a guide who knows the route. Wisdom and Faith are most complementary qualities when the path becomes overgrown
don't loose sight of the guiding stars. Put one foot in front of the other and keep moving forward until you get there. Don't eat yellow snow.
Very good point mate... You are right about what you are saying mate but I think the road is long and sidetracks are countless and the only thing that gets people to the ultimate is the sincerity in their intent. I forget the intent sometimes wen I post anything on this forum but I guess what you guys are saying is what teaches me that again. Thank you guys I love hearing your comments
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"Empty the mind and fill the belly."
Stop thinking so freakin' much and live spontaneously!!!
I wish I could do that mate trust me!
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Hey fatguyslim! I hope things are going well for you!
My interpretation given the context here is that, when someone is trying to practice and just keeps running into walls, and is stubborn like a ram not allowing his himself to learn with an open mind, he should empty his mind, ie, empty his cup of thinking he knows all about this and that so that a teacher can fill it with it instructions. Of course, when we think we know so much about this and that, it is really difficult for a teacher to fill a cup that is already full. The highest teachers are very very simple, so simple most would never believe that they have something to teach them -- thus it is very important to consider that even the simplest person you encounter might in reality deserve your utmost humbleness -- far more than one who's loftiness is apparent. It takes an almost impossible amount of true humility to humble one's self beneath someone who is so incredibly humble. No matter how low you bow... they're always closer to the earth
This is very true and I do believe that being humble is very important. In this context I agree he is asking students to be humble but I think there is more to that as well. One cannot be humble if one does not get rid of the human mentality i.e. random thoughts and arbitrarily acting on them. If one can overcome this human mentality then one naturally becomes humble. It is because of this human mind that one keeps running into trouble without knowing if its troublesome. I have heard Liu say that students usually take the false to be real without fully understanding the principles. So emptying the mind (meaning being absolutely humble) allows great teachers to work with students.
Thinking that one can ascend without lowering themselves is one of the common mistakes what students make (not my words btw). Overcoming this human mind cannot happen overnight and it cannot be forced either. Thats why I asked what everyone does in order to eliminate this human mindset?
This I ching is written by a Taoist Alchemical master, so people who read taoist alchemical will definitely find this interesting and obviously spot something in these sayings which I cannot.
Thanks for your reply and I hope to hear more.
Cheers
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Hey guys, I have got a serious question from the Taoist I Ching (commentary by Liu I-ming) translated by Thomas Cleary. I read the hexagram number 34 called Great Power few days ago and I stumbled upon something by Liu I-Ming which I think he has never revealed before (or maybe he has and I never understood in the past). In this hexagram he comments on the top yin as follows
"Top yin: The ram running into the fence cannot retreat, cannot go ahead; there is no benefit. Struggle will produce good results.
EXPLANATION
If one is ignorant and acts arbitrarily, indulges in guesswork and goes off on tangents, a lifetime of studies will after all be useless. This is like a ram having run into a fence, unable to retreat or go ahead. At the culmination of action, disaster has already developed, so it is impossible to pull out of it; at the end of an affair, it is too late for regret - how can one go on to success? Unable to withdraw, unsuccessful in going ahead, one's whole life is wasted - what benefit is there? So for people who are weak and lack capability, rather than apply power by themselves and get hurt in the process, it is better to quickly empty the mind and seek a teacher. Studying when stumped, exerting effort to practice what is learned, working intensively while struggling through difficulty, not worrying about not reaching the realm of great power - this is originally not being powerful yet becoming powerful through resort to what is right."
Now I urge you guys to share what you think about the line "it is better to quickly empty the mind and seek a teacher." I always believed that to empty the mind is also something what a teacher can explain. But after reading this it has cleared many doubts in my mind and now how I understand about emptying the mind is something that one should discern by oneself. This also accords with other Liu's texts in which he prioritizes the students to investigate the principles meaning to discern what is true and what is false, through reading more texts. I believe this whole process of knowing the true and repelling the false falls into the same category, which will eventually lead one to a teacher who can then teach the students to practice the truth.
This is what I believe but if you have something that might open my eyes and allows me to see beyond what I understand (through my silly little mindset), then that would be greatly helpful.
Also please share how you go about emptying your mind because it will be interesting to know what everyone practices in search of the Truth. Thanks and I look forward to your replies.
Cheers
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I have one final question and I would like you guys to please answer it straightforwardly without using metaphors or symbols. I would like to know and I am sure that many new Taoists would like to know, that what is the first step or practice for he beginner. Remember I am going along only with what Liu says in all his text about not using any physical methods or techniques. If you have read Liu I-ming's text and you follow it diligently with a single mind, then please share what you have to say to my question. Thanks
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It's hard because the self is what does all the eliminating.
I love this quote...Yeah I agree with you mate I will definitely keep to myself when I learn stuff, I learn by according with the text. My preception (for now) will not get me anywhere. Like the text says firmness and flexibilty should go together. So one thing I am sure at practicing wherever I am is making the intent sincere and the will firm, only then will I see the true and will avoid the false. Its good talking to people through this... It opens my eyes which I have forcefully kept closed for no reason in the past. Thanks for your help and I hope to hear more!
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Generally speaking,the higher the way it is , the less it has to touch upon things like levels or locations ( say the three dantians) , or functions / physical entities( the 5 organs) . The highest way , of course,is to start from " no where ", without touching anything ,even the " nothingness/ emptiness";
Some readers likely immediately think of the similar Zen's way, which is something as difficult as what we have mentioned . The result of adopting this way, based on the unpleasant experience that the Chinese experienced in the Zen Buddhism history , is that most of the practitioners are either trapped in the so-called Lunatic Zen "disease"(狂禪)(guys who boasted of their understanding of Enlightenment, Awakening , addicted to philosophical arguments with others , yet in fact are lack of any actual experience in Englightenment ..etc).. or degenerate into Verbal Zen (口頭禪) ( people who relate those daily life matters to and carelessly interpret them in Zen's terms , turning the indepth things into trivials ; which is ,in fact, a vulgarization of something great) .
In a word, although not starting from dantian/ postures sound good , most likely,on most people, it doesn't get good results . So, most sifu, nowadays, still talk about things like lower dantian , upper dantian, the five-elements stuff...etc, which do reflect the being-entangled-in- the-post-heavenly-qi status that most people are situated when they start their practice.
Of course, there will be one day , after decades of searching, a sifu does comes across a gifted disciple, then he may exceptionally preach a way of starting from nowhere... The more excellent a sifu/master is, the lonelier he is in this world , as Liu Yi Ming's writes in a poem :
看破浮生一也无，单身只影走江湖。
鸢飞鱼跃藏真趣，绿水青山是道图。
大梦场中常觉我，千峰顶上视迷徒。
Having seen through in life nothing real
I lonely travelled across lakes and rivers
Truth hides in , flying eagles and swimming fish
Green water and mountain , where Tao hovers
In a big dream , I always find myself alone awakening
Like overlooking from top of mountains, I view the
people down there, lost
Again what a legendary poem... This is music to my ears!!!
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TTC 49: the sage has borderline personality disorder?
in General Discussion
Posted
Again what a nice way to describe it... Thank you