Mark Saltveit
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Everything posted by Mark Saltveit
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Seth Ananda please teach me about kundalini
Mark Saltveit replied to RongzomFan's topic in General Discussion
Those viscous attacks are the worst! I always feel like I'm covered in used motor oil. -
Taoism Today -- The Controversy Continues
Mark Saltveit replied to Stigweard's topic in General Discussion
Well put! These books aren't sacred objects to me, the way some idolatrize the Koran or the Bible. They're just tools, guides to something we should all be able to experience in daily life. As Chuang Tzu said, "Words exist because of meaning. Once you've gotten the meaning, you can forget the words." And I might add, if the words don't connect you to the meaning, you can also forget them (and maybe try a different path). -
No. (A simple answer) :-) To me, the major lesson of Taoism is humility. The universe is what it is. It doesn't revolve around us. It doesn't really care about us. It doesn't get mad at us and punish us. It's nothing personal. There are laws of the universe, and if you disregard them, you may suffer, the way that putting your hand in a fire hurts. But the fire isn't disciplining you, it's just being fire.
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Taoism Today -- The Controversy Continues
Mark Saltveit replied to Stigweard's topic in General Discussion
Is Dr. Kirkland on this website? I would love to have him in the discussion. Unlike the Tao Te Ching, we don't actually HAVE to speculate on the author's intent. Tao Bum, you're right. It is quite a stretch to imagine we can take a short cut directly through one or two books and understand a whole tradition without going through those intermediate steps. The questions that remain, though, are 1) How authentic are ANY of the current Taoist traditions, after 2400 years? and 2) Do those original source books describe a universal reality that any human can apprehend directly, through contemplation, action or whatever? If the answer to #2 is no, then it's basically all BS anyway, or a type of Chinese literature at best. But if the answer is yes, then there may be many paths to that source, including some not transmitted person to person through Chinese teachers and traditions. -
Taoism Today -- The Controversy Continues
Mark Saltveit replied to Stigweard's topic in General Discussion
Wow, Kirkland sure has some strong feelings on the subject, huh? Is anyone carrying on his line of thought currently? It seems pretty far out on a limb to argue, as he does, that the Tao Te Ching itself does not represent Taoism correctly, but was "sanitized" as part of a "marketing ploy" by its author in the 3rd century BC. -
Most poetic translation of the Tao Te Ching?
Mark Saltveit replied to Soulthriller's topic in Group Studies
James Legge's translation attempts rhyme and meter wherever possible, and so it is quite literally poetic. IMHO this just serves to show why that's a bad idea, but you can find it at the link Marblehead provided above. EG, from the first chapter: Always without desire we must be found, If its deep mystery we would sound; But if desire always within us be, Its outer fringe is all that we shall see. -
Taoism Today -- The Controversy Continues
Mark Saltveit replied to Stigweard's topic in General Discussion
I don't think anyone would argue this point. But your implication is that the Western view of Taoism is wrong. The understanding one gets from reading the Christian Bible is very different than the way Christianity is practiced in the current Catholic Church, among Jehovah's Witnesses, and in various snake-handling churches, also. -
I know that Buddhism eventually can get somewhere close to Taoist non-dualism, if you squint right or practice it a certain way. But in the deepest essence of the philosophy, there is good and bad; enlightenment or not, grasping or not grasping, teacher who understands deep things vs. follower who should settle for compassion because they can't fathom the deep stuff, in your terms. Buddhism does not love the unenlightened world, it beckons those in it to a better reality. Fundamentally, Buddhism is a story about a savior who came to show us a better way (to understand the world, to live). It's about human thought, speech, action, etc. that is wrong, and how to make it right. Taoism is a philosophical understanding of a world that ultimately doesn't give much of a rat's ass about humans, but flows a certain way that we can't grasp by using words and ideas, but might get sort of closer to via intuition and (arguably) other techniques. It sounds harsh, but the Tao itself brings humor which tends to cure the harshness. Buddhism preaches compassion and lacks humor; Taoism, if anything, mocks charity, but makes cruelty seem absurd and pompous to the point where one naturally tends to be like a kindly (but sometimes prickly) grandmother. (Obviously this is all my personal take, but that's OK because I'm right. ;-) )
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Touché! A Taoist debate: two people smiling at each other (knowingly).
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Interesting. One of the difficulties in discussing Taoism of course is the diversity of practice. But I don't see the celibacy as fundamental to Taoism, nor do I see any support for it in the TTC or Chuang Tzu . Do you? (I concede that I'm not thoroughly familiar with the "outer chapters" of the latter.)
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I'm inclined to believe them when they say that. I mean, why would they lie? Also, this bothers me much less than it used to (before I became confident). ;-) Sounds like a joke but it's true. Part of it was better balancing my physical and mental sides -- in college I was all in my head. And to be honest, I prefer a confident partner too. Wouldn't it be a bit worrisome if your love liked you insecure?
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Thanks for the warning. I picked what seems to be the most recent and vigorous, and jumped in.
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What, you folks haven't sorted out Buddhism vs. Taoism YET? Sheesh, let's get working. (Rolls up sleeves). It does seem to me that there are some fundamental differences, clouded by many similarities and their blending in Zen (Chan) Buddhism. One can argue that Lao Tzu has become a divine figure in some (many? most?) traditions of Taoism, but I don't think one can fairly argue that his incarnation -- if there ever really was such a person -- is as fundamental as that of Buddha to Buddhism. The essence of Buddhism is the personal experience of Gautama Buddha; there is no analog with Lao Tzu (nor is there another major philosopher comparable to Chuang Tzu). Yet more fundamentally though, I think the essence of Buddhism is dualistic -- spirit vs. body, male vs. female, illusion vs. reality, nirvana vs. incarnation -- and there is a clear sense of which is better, vs. the balance of Taoism. Yes, I know people will say "but but the middle way." The middle way between illusion and reality? I don't think so. Taoism is the only religious philosophy that (IMHO) is fundamentally accepting of the world, of physicality, of imperfection. In fact, it's greatest sin is the failure to accept that reality, the desire to change and shape it rather than working with it. Buddhism remains fundamentally uncomfortable with the world, hence you get celibate monks, etc. OK, now that we've cleared that up, what else do you want to talk about?
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Well, I guess that answers my question!! Does it matter which one I respond in?
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Why I Keep a Diary While I follow the wind there is no wind. Because my wings are silent. I follow the coast and find these pines wrapped in their wind, those old believers. And I know that I am alive and this is the world's trail a day, a day, a day much on its own track. Where did the others go? Pacemaker sun, persuader, and heart that wants to beat (and then the soul's one stride): my destiny is to find this coast I follow. -- William Stafford I love that initial image -- a bird following the wind, like you see some times, not flapping, just coasting. And there is no wind, relative to the bird. He is the wind, and it is the coast that blows by.
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Reverse lines, or reverse the words? I wonder how it would read backwards in the original Chinese characters. It would be funny if it turned out the book isn't mysterious or even spiritual at all, people have just been reading the characters the wrong way. And it's actually a farming manual.
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Hi, all! I've been surprised by the lack of Taoist places on the Internet (as opposed to thousands of Buddhist sites), so it's nice to meet you all here. I'm a writer, palindromist and standup comedian in the NW U.S.A. Look forward to seeing what you all have to share.
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I looked through "Change your Thoughts, Change Your Life: Living The Wisdom of the Tao" at a bookstore, but it's 416 pages! Any book with that many words is missing the point of Taoism, I say. According to Wikipedia, Steven Mitchell sued Dyer for copying 200 lines out of Mitchell's interpretation of the TTC into "Change" and "Living The Wisdom Of the Tao." Presumably he quoted Mitchell's version (it's not exactly a translation) without permission.
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A true Taoist cannon is rarely if ever fired, and then only with sadness and gravity. ;-)
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Most poetic translation of the Tao Te Ching?
Mark Saltveit replied to Soulthriller's topic in Group Studies
Your premise is difficult, because in my opinion -- while focus on wording is clearly a mistake -- the depth of the TTC is found in groundedness in the real world, not in abstraction which is a flight from it. Given my viewpoint, I recommend Ursula Le Guin's version of the Tao Teh Ching. -
Tao 101 - If you could recommend only ONE book ...
Mark Saltveit replied to OneConsciousness's topic in Group Studies
Oh, yeah! Someone above reminded me about Alan Watts. "Tao: The Watercourse Way" is excellent as well. -
Tao 101 - If you could recommend only ONE book ...
Mark Saltveit replied to OneConsciousness's topic in Group Studies
>>Rainbow Vein: What are folks' favorite editions/translations of these two works? I have a bit of a different opinion than others here. For Americans, anyway, I'd recommend Thomas Merton's (abridged) Chuang Tzu, and Ursula Le Guin's Tao Teh Ching. Both are great contemporary readings based on literally decades of meditation by gifted writers. Rather than fussing with details of translation, each writer dug deep inside to find current connections of these classics in their own language and experience. Many of the older versions recommended here are harder to parse because the language used is outdated (as English), or based on translating the words rather than translating the meaning. Fun fact: the title of Le Guin's book "The Lathe of Heaven" is from an 1890s translation of the TTC. It's a good example of a rendering that doesn't help get its concept across very well to a modern reader. Mark -
Taoism Today -- The Controversy Continues
Mark Saltveit replied to Stigweard's topic in General Discussion
I think this is a very interesting topic worth discussing at some length, probably in its own thread. I'm new here and can't tell if there is already such a discussion. Can anyone point me to one, or say whether it would be appropriate to start one? Mark
