MrLoony

I seem to recall reading a translation of a Taoist text that said something to the effect that greed for knowledge is as bad as greed for other things (Edit: Certain translations I've found of the Tao Te Ching say similar things, but the quote can be considered vague). For the life of me, though, I cannot seem to find it. Does anyone know what translation and what text this is from?

Actually, no... it's not just mass panics. It's also political or celebrity intrigue.

Don't get me wrong, corrupt politicians need to be dealt with, but it's amazing the ideas people have about politicians from the media reporting on maybe two corrupt politicians a year... out of thousands of career politicians.

Arguably, they create mass panics to fill the holes until they can find another corrupt politician.

Popular media. >.<

Mass panics are how they sell themselves.

So... uh... this topic has seemed to turn to sweet dough and what have you, but I did want to say something on the topic of sex in Japan:

Sex is an exchange of masculine and feminine energies, right? But having been asexual throughout most of my life... and androgynous, I have a viewpoint of this: Not every man has an excess of masculine energy and not every woman has an excess of feminine energy.

Maybe the lack of sex is less about unhealthiness, and more about more balanced energies naturally.

Or maybe it's the number of guys there having extramarital affairs. I'm on another forum, and one of the women there is in Japan teaching... and is hit on by married men. I'm not sure whether it happens with more frequency than in America... or other countries, for that matter. Just suggesting it as a possibility.

So perhaps your question should have left out all the girlfriend stuff and asked for thoughts regarding respecting Taoism. BTW asking this question on a Taoist forum one sorta knows what the answer will be.

I said in my post that I wasn't looking for advice, and all I wanted was general views on respecting Taoism.

Also, the answer is not absolute just because this is a Taoist forum. As I've said, I don't feel that Taoism is a religion (or philosophy, or way of life) that demands respect. Half of the Chuang Tzu seems to be about him dismissing respect. In fact, one of my favorite parts of the Chuang Tzu seems to me to say pretty much exactly that:

Once, when Chuang Tzu was fishing in the P'u River, the king of Ch'u sent two officials to go and announce to him: "I would like to trouble you with the administration of my realm."

 

Chuang Tzu held on to the fishing pole and, without turning his head, said, "I have heard that there is a sacred tortoise in Ch'u that has been dead for three thousand years. The king keeps it wrapped in cloth and boxed, and stores it in the ancestral temple. Now would this tortoise rather be dead and have its bones left behind and honored? Or would it rather be alive and dragging its tail in the mud?"

 

"It would rather be alive and dragging its tail in the mud," said the two officials.

 

Chuang Tzu said, "Go away! I'll drag my tail in the mud!"

So I don't think that the answer is already determined by me asking it on a Taoist forum. I think some people would take that passage as not dismissing respect, not dismissing it entirely, or not dismissing it when referring to Taoism (specifically). I think there are others, like me, that would interpret that passage and others as being dismissive of respect. Furthermore, there are those that might not see any specific passage as being dismissive of respect, but, when the whole of the writings are taken, they might see them as being dismissive of respect.

/is no big surprise

Haven't you been paying attention?

I was thinking a few months ago about wants. I suppose there are two types of wants: One that you cannot be happy without (desires might be a better term for them) and ones that you work towards, but you don't mind either way. I don't like the "frosting on the cake" analogy because it implies that these wants would make your life better. As Confucius said, "He who seeks only coarse food to eat, water to drink and bent arm for pillow will without looking for it find happiness to boot." If you could have more happiness, then you aren't truly happy.

The main issue I have with the ideal thing is this:

A person of high virtue is not conscious of virtue

and therefore possesses Virtue.

A person of little virtue tries to be virtuous

and therefore lacks Virtue.

-Tao Te Ching, Chapter 38, Tolbert McCarroll translation

It really seems to me to be saying that the final step in becoming one with Virtue is to discard thoughts of Virtue.

"Taoism" ???

Duh...

If you ask a thousand people about taoism, you will have a thousand opinions!

Take us, this forum, for example: we are still debating what IS taoism and what IS NOT.

 

SO, in order to respect anything, you first have to define it, no??

How did you define "Taoism" to her? What does she know about it?

Sorry but I do think age plays a role in the question asked.

I had no intention of disrespecting him.

I just don't understand how two people can be together without mutual respect.

You respect the other person and along with that comes trust.

Perhaps the question should have been " What should we bring the children up as ?"

While I appreciate the fact that you are trying to help me, you must understand that I am not asking for advice in this particular situation. The reason for this (aside from the fact that I do not need advice) is two-fold: First, how can you know the situation if you have not lived it? Even living it, you may not understand the situation. Secondly, I was actually reading just a couple of weeks ago about the Golden Rule, and Chuang Tzu's take on it. What would be best for you in this particular situation is not best for me.

Project energy, poise, charisma, personality, fun, excitement, power, control, and intelligence. Show her you are awesome, and by default so must Taoism be.

Actually, if she brings it up again, I'm going to point this out. She assumes that the respect must flow negatively (a lack of respect for Taoism flowing into a lack of respect for me), but it seems to me that it should flow positively (respect for me flowing into respect for Taoism). I have other points about it, though. I don't need help with how to talk to my girlfriend. That was just background. I really want to know: To you, does Taoism demand respect?

I may have some difficulty in explaining this, so please forgive me if there's misunderstanding:

Marblehead, your post brought an interesting question to my mind:

As an example, I want to live up to my ideal. However, I'm not at that point yet, and so I am not at peace with myself. In effect, I am not happy because my want is going unfulfilled.

If I am without want, I will be happy.

Should I not want to live up to that ideal? It seems to me that being free of an ideal is an important step in meeting the ideal that Taoism sets forth.

Perhaps what you should address is whether she loves and you love her. If you both do, then the issue of Taoism doesn't matter, what matters is what you feel for each other in your hearts.

Well, yes. She does and I do. She just worries about the issue of respect... which brings be back to my questions:

Does Taoism demand respect? How does Taoism relate to respect?

I often say that, while I am Taoist, I'm not a very GOOD Taoist.

I believe in a certain ideal, but I'm not at that point yet. Of course, there are those who would argue that being at the ideal is not as great as working towards it.

A truly good person functions without ulterior motive.

A moralist acts out of private desires.

A ritualist acts and, when no one responds,

rolls up a sleeve and marches.

When we lose the Tao, we turn to Virtue.

When we lose Virtue, we turn to kindness.

When we lose kindness, we turn to morality.

When we lose morality, we turn to ritual.

Ritual is the mere husk of good faith and loyalty

and the beginning of disorder.

~Tao Te Ching, Chapter 38, as translated by Tolbert McCarroll

People of the Tao

conform to the Tao.

People of Virtue

conform to Virtue.

People who lose the way

conform to the loss.

Those who conform to the Tao

are welcomed into the Tao.

Those who conform to Virtue

are welcomed into Virtue.

Those who conform to the loss

are welcomed into the loss.

I was talking with my girlfriend (have I told you about my girlfriend? I totally have a girlfriend. ) a few days ago, and she worries that, because she doesn't respect my beliefs, that extends to me as well. She doesn't know much about Taoism, but I don't think learning about it would change anything.

The thing is, though... I've never thought of Taoism as a religion that demanded respect. I've always thought of that as one of the aspects of life that people WANT, but is, in fact, unnecessary and potentially damaging to one's spiritual well-being.

I was wondering what your thoughts are in terms of respecting Taoism. Any thoughts on the matter will be helpful. Please don't tell me to dump my girlfriend or to get her to respect Taoism. That's really the only thing I ask. All I want is general thoughts on respecting Taoism.

Edit: Please... All I want to know is your opinion on respecting Taoism. I'm not looking for relationship advice.

I'm not exactly good with words, so pardon me if this is not as eloquent as some would like:

I've come here before on occasion, but I never registered. I recently decided that maybe it was time to register.

So... Hello and good morning.