henro

I agree with dawei and others, plan a trip for a couple weeks to an area that looks interesting and check it out. I wouldn't move there blind...

You might look at some organized trips structured around tai chi or qigong - Michael Winn, Solala Towler, or maybe one of the Chinese teachers that offers retreats. I did 2 trips with Winn, and it was eye opening. Gave me a wide view of the country, made some introductions, and has helped me negotiate the rest of my travels there. I go almost every year now, sometimes 2 or 3 times per year to visit people and teachers I've met on his trips. 

This seems to come up on acupuncture, and martial arts boards every few months. Chris is a very good writer, and his main point is important - demystifying Chinese medicine so that it might find more acceptance in the medical community. But it seems from the essays linked above that he has never read the classics, has never attempted to learn the language, and has never bothered to study Chinese culture and history.

I emailed him just after those blogs were posted pointing out several inaccuracies, and he just replied that different people have different theories. I believe he actually does the Chinese medicine community a disservice with his approach in these essays, and seeks to further his own agenda - promoting functional medicine.

He suggests that Georges Soulie de Morant was not able to translate the Huang Di Nei Jing accurately, and borrowed from his knowledge of ayurveda in describing meridians. Yet, Morant spent 18 years in China learning the language, culture, history, and about Chinese medicine. Any choices he made in translation and the latter dissemination of Chinese medicine were informed, educated, and experiential. Are we to weigh Chris' theories, those of a TCM student who doesn't speak or read the language, doesn't know the history, and to my knowledge hasn't ever visited China, over Morant who lived their for 18 years and was completely immersed in the experience? Further, he then states that all modern textbooks are based on Morant's translations. This completely devalues the work of Unschuld, Wiseman, Flaws, Bensky, Scheid, and other amazing scholars who have taken great pains to examine the classics in their original language, and present them to a modern english speaking audience. When I emailed him suggesting that meridians are indeed described in the HDNJ, the Mawangdui scrolls, and other ancient sources he dismissed this as evidence that meridian theory did exist prior to Morant.

Here's a link to Morant's bio:

http://trueacu.com/morant

*note, I've pasted some of this response from other posts I written on the subject….

I don't know that scientists will ever find meridians, or qi. If they find a substance that nourishes and propels life they certainly won't name it qi. And if they find some unseen pathways through the body they definitely won't call them meridians….

That being said my concept of meridians and qi is continually evolving. After 4 years in TCM school and clinic, I believe there are pathways, meridians, but they are not necessarily bodily structures, and they aren't all built the same. For instance we can pretty easily trace the nerve pathway of some of the hand meridians and leg meridians. But other meridians may simply follow muscle groups. Take a look at the UB meridian, specifically from UB9 at the back of the head down to UB60 at the lateral malleolus. There's a great picture of the muscle groups underlying the pathway in the book Anatomy Trains. Clearly there's no physically structured Ren meridian but many people can sense the pathway during MCO. The Du, maybe it's the spine, maybe the nerve pathway along the spine, not sure. Meridians may also jump structures, say from following a nerve pathway, to following a dermatome, to a muscle group. That's where I'm at now, I'm sure it will evolve as my experience grows...

 

what are your thoughts on neidan....

i read in a forum that neidan works with yuan jing but qigong works with post natal jing....

i have many questions but since i m still a junior bum...the amount of posts i make are restricted....

 

also how much time will it take me to replenish prenatal jing...10 years ..20 years...

 

and how much prenatal jing have i burned according to you...since i mentioned my lifestyle with you...

 

i hope to get married in the next five years and bore children...will that be a problem??

i m willing to do whatever it takes to get it back....and get my life back in order...

no matter how hard i have to work....or how much discipline is needed...So nothing is an issue...i just need a proper path to know how it can be done....and whats the best possible path!

thank you!

and At age 23..how much possibly could i have burnt??

Do you know anyone who has been succesful in getting back the lost prenatal jing?

You will be fine… Don't over think this stuff. Eat healthy, stay active, no drugs, or smoking, alcohol in moderation. The middle path is the way forward for lay persons. If you're going to take Chinese herbs please see a licensed TCM practitioner so they can check you pulse and tongue, hear your symptoms, and write a proper formula for you. You are producing about 1500 sperm per second…..

VonKrankenhaus - pretty much any rockstar…. They all look beat on in their 20's. Some young starlets as well, Lyndsey Lohan being the most obvious. Of course drugs play a huge part in this as well.

But I think it's worth looking at who these texts may have originally been written for - emperors who had 1000 concubines, wealthy families who had 10 or more wives, and adepts who spent a lot of time alone. The common man, with only one wife, and who worked in the fields all day was not the target of these practices.

Daniel Reid has some thoughts on how often one should have sex based on their age, but I don't have it front of me.

Further, modern research shows us that testosterone increases for about 7 days after ejaculation, and then drops off. There is no longterm benefit to abstinence on a hormonal level. The benefit comes from not overdoing it so you don't have chronically low testosterone.

Sun si Miao said "A man may attend health and longevity if he practices an ejaculation frequency of twice monthly, or 24 times a year. If at the same time he pays careful attention to proper diet and exercise, he will live a long and healthy life."

The best pro golfers have coaches who will never play as well as them, and who may never progress further in their own game. Michael Jordan and Phil Jackson, the list is endless.

But a great coach, like a great teacher, can help you push your own game/practice in ways that you've never thought of. Likewise, not all good players and practitioners make good teachers or coaches. At least that's been my experience…

Nice post kundaolinyi… I think it's important to remember that most of the teachers one encounters in daoist practices today are also on their own journey. None of them are perfected, and none of them have perfected the practice. You mention posture issues with Michael Winn, have you ever seen video of Hua Ching Ni doing bagua? His posture doesn't seem to follow the generally accepted guidelines for qigong or martial practice. Many practitioners are put off by Clymann's attitude? And people always mention BKF's weight….. etc, etc.

I think one of the main issues with Chia's system is that he has exposed very high level practices to the public, and everyone wants to jump in quickly. They either don't listen to their bodies and/or force the energy before they're ready. We see it all the time on this forum. Not everyone should be doing this stuff...

All of these guys have issues, but they do have something to teach. I try to learn from everyone, take the good, dispose of the bad. My bagua/xing yi teacher is constantly studying with teachers all over the world. He believes that no one has all the details. You need to reach out, collect the bits, and find your way.

I tried to find a bio, does anyone know what temple he learned these forms in?

I think so. If I'm reading you correctly, Waysun teaches single forms or postures as a form of meditation to affect alchemical process, and to work with energy.

The long form he uses is really just a container for these postures. That's why it might closely resemble Yang style. The long form could be almost any form once you've got the single forms.

This was all learned at a daoist temple in his youth.

Does that sound right?

Ah ha, that explains quite a bit. I agree, many schools simply teach movement and form with little intention…

I've seen many videos of the form by various teachers under Waysun. If you read my original post, I was simply bringing up a topic that has circulated here and on other boards before.

And yet with several defenders of the style posting here no one has bothered to answer the question. How is it that the "Temple Style Long Form", which supposedly preceded all other tai chi forms, follows the same routine as some of the Yang family variations when we know that Yang Luchan only studied tai chi with the Chen's, and his form developed from that experience?

There is significant research into the history of tai chi, and many published histories, and lineages. I have yet to see any scholar or author mention Temple Tai Chi in their research...

Did ever the thought occur to you that Waysun Liao was not adressing at all the forms of his taichi?

Not sure I understand your question, but he and his disciples often say the form he teaches, Temple Style Tai Chi, is the original form of tai chi as practiced by Lao Zi.

From the very first page of this thread:

He teaches temple style taichi....which is supposedly the original form of taichi that was taught by Lao Tzu, of which the family styles (like chen or yang taichi) are branched off.

So my question still stands…..

I think the issue that people have with Waysun is the term "Temple Style Tai Chi", and that it was the original form of tai chi.

If you look at his form it is clearly a Yang derivative. We know that Yang Luchan studied the Chen form, and we know what the various Chen forms look like. We can be fairly certain that Yang did not study tai chi with anyone else, and developed his form from the Chen. How is it that Waysun's "older" form looks so much like Yang's?

I'm not saying he's not a good teacher, or that he doesn't have the goods. But why make up stories about the origin of the form?

Sighing is usually associated with Liver Qi Stagnation, i.e. stress, emotional issues

Deep incomplete breaths, and yawning possibly kidney qi failing to grasp.

Difficult to give a complete TCM diagnosis without pulse and tongue...

Chinese medicine, as it's practiced throughout the modern world, is an amalgamation of family, and regional practices largely devoid of spiritual influence. Of course, if you go deeper into study - Daoist practices and medicine, and the classics prior to the creation of TCM, you'll find more. But if you want to be licensed and practice you'll need to devote 4 years to TCM study. Your studies will concentrate on Chinese medicine theory, points, herbs, and lots of western medicine so that you can interface with M.D.'s and insurance companies. The studies in many states are meant to be a sort of hazing, requiring huge quantities of memorization of minutia that you will never use in clinic. I attend a school that is known in the industry to have a rigorous qi cultivation program - it has mostly been a disappointment...

So I have pondered, is Chinese Medicine truly rooted in an awakened consciousness, or is it a system that deviates from reality while wearing the garbs of some esoteric truth? Is it possible to know without practicing and learning? I want to know, can acupuncture liberate minds, can studying it bring about a deeper integration and clarity to this consciousness, or will it cloud it and bog it down with knowledge? Can one become a professional, an educated being, and remain true to the inward humility and sanctity necessary to commune with the divine essence? For those of you in school, or out of school, or teaching school, do graduates of chinese medicine succeed in the world? Can they make a difference in others' lives? Can they financially support their loved ones and family members as householders? Is the medicine totally genuine, or does one have to become a cheat, a salesman, a con in some respects to maintain a practice? Does the medicine touch the levels of the spirit? Can the medicine evolve to suit the inner mission of the practitioner? What are its limitations? Most of all, I do not understand how one can be immersed in the world of finance while remaining in harmony with the Dao. The burden of debt that the education comes with, and the practical complications of starting and running a business frighten me, as I feel they may cost me my inner spiritual integrity.

Is Chinese medicine rooted in awakened consciousness? Maybe, probably, but you'll need to spend some years memorizing the varieties of hepatitis, hormones, vitamins, etc. before you discover that aspect.

Can acupuncture liberate minds? Of the patient or you? Potentially, with the right teachers, the right teaching, the right patients. But I wouldn't say that is the path or the goal.

Can one become a professional, an educated being, and remain true to the inward humility and sanctity necessary to commune with the divine essence? Of course, the Dalai Lama seems to embody this - an educated being who remains true and humble.

do graduates of chinese medicine succeed in the world? Can they make a difference in others' lives? Can they financially support their loved ones and family members as householders? Of course. I would say you need to do research on this for any career you intend to undertake.

Is the medicine totally genuine, or does one have to become a cheat, a salesman, a con in some respects to maintain a practice? I have seen some pretty amazing things happen in clinics around the world. There's enough good stuff in CM that one should not have to resort to anything but the truth. Of course, this all depends on one's level of study, and practice.

Does the medicine touch the levels of the spirit? yes….

Can the medicine evolve to suit the inner mission of the practitioner? It can, but the initial study can be torturous. Staying on the path is very, very difficult.

What are its limitations? That is completely based on the practitioner.

Most of all, I do not understand how one can be immersed in the world of finance while remaining in harmony with the Dao. The burden of debt that the education comes with, and the practical complications of starting and running a business frighten me, as I feel they may cost me my inner spiritual integrity. Thats not really a Chinese medicine question, more of a life question…. If you can't interface with the world how strong is your spiritual integrity?

Not once in your post did you mention helping or trying to heal others. That should be your number one calling with regard to Chinese medicine. Honestly, it sounds like you should probably be a monk or priest...

In the last semester of my masters program!!!! Doctorate and phd starting next year...

I think it depends on the teacher, and their emphasis….

 

I see where the discrepancy between our understanding. I guess we were exposed in a different direction. Fine, let's have it stand that way. Here is my final word though! If a car is stop running. I believe that the mechanic will troubleshoot the engine internally rather than checking the air pressure on the tires.

 

 

Happy New Year.

Good accomplishment from your practices.

Good points!!!!

The internal engine is only as good as the frame and support it is mounted on

Happy New Year!!!

Thank you silent thunder, excellent post. Your observations are something I have witnessed often with students who jump into the internal arts with no external background…..

1. Anyone can start Kung Fu anytime then go into Tai Ji. Thus one will know the major difference in the two. I didn't imply that anybody is doing it wrong.

 

2. What I am saying there is a big possibility, in general, that someone who teaches both Tai Ji and Gong Fu can't be a good teacher. Of course, there are exceptions. Anybody can learn to be appreciated. I was saying that if someone who'd started with Tai Ji will be more appreciated than those who weren't exposed to begin with.

 

3. Wudang arts are a different story. Wudang arts are will planned and controlled in their teaching methods. However, my scenario was based on someone who learned the arts from here and there.

 

 

But you are saying that some people are "doing it wrong" when you state that one can not be a good teacher if they teach both tai ji and gong fu…….

The latter will do all what the former does more than one expected. That is why I said practice Tai Ji first. Hence there are unlimited features to be discovered in the practice of Tai Ji. Once one has learned this elegant art, one would be indulged in it. Unless, one has not been learned to appreciate it fully, then, one might goes into Kung Fu along the way. I wouldn't consider that was a proper approach.

 

 

@ thewhitetiger

Yet, it was arrogant. Perhaps offensive! Indeed! I was only emphasizing on the guideline how to choose a right teacher. It really jolted somebody, didn't it.....???

 

 

It's safe to say that practitioners of martial arts who start when they are young will have external arts first, then tai ji. This includes Yang Lu Chan. So are you saying they are all wrong to study gong fu first?

Further, you've now diverged away from your original proposition, that someone who teaches both tai ji and gong fu can't be a good teacher. Are you now saying as long as they practice tai ji first that its ok? Or if someone chooses to learn an external art, or god forbid cross train in multiple arts, they are incapable of appreciating tai ji?

And what about the thousands of people who practice Wudang arts which have elements of external gong fu, tai ji, bagua, zing yi, and qigong?

I will make it very brief here about Tai Ji and Kung Fu.

 

Tai Ji takes a long time to bring it to perfection. It is a from of Chi Kung as well as Neigong. The primary reason for people to practice Tai Ji is for health. At the beginning of the practice, there are alots of hard work in breathing and movements for building up the body inner strength. After few years of practice, then it may be applied to have the function as Kung Fu.

 

In general, people practice Kung Fu is for self defense. Of course, it may not exclude health for some. Kung Fu is not as refine as Tai Ji. Sometimes, it is very vigorous and pretty aggressive. It consumes lots of body energy during practice. Thus it cannot be classified as Neigung(內功) as Tai Ji. It would be more appropriate to classify it as Weigong(外功).

 

These two techniques are almost the opposite of each other. It is difficult to practice them at the same time. If a person wants to practice both, then, Tai Ji should be practiced first. However, after a person have brought Tai Ji to its perfection, then, there is no need to learn Kung Fu or doesn't want to learn it at all. Needless to say, one may not have perfected the prowess of Tai Ji, yet, if one claims one knows Kung Fu and Tai Ji.

In general I would agree, but only when it pertains to the average weekend warrior. To practice both on a limited basis might be difficult. However, with the right systems, the two practices complement and inform each other in many ways.

Kung fu, with its stance training, and often cardio style workout with forms makes the practitioner stronger. The fighting aspects give the movements integrity, and the addition of weapons training helps with coordination, and strength. External styles can bring a greater and quicker level of understanding to your tai ji practice.

Tai ji's slow movements and intricacies can help inform the external styles forms and stances, bringing a greater degree of perfection to these forms. The flow of kung fu forms can be increased, and the internal alignments of tai ji will add to the power.

So while the training and practices are different, the two can be completely complementary. Great teachers who've spent their lives training both may be able to teach both, and can add a level of understanding that someone who has only trained one system cannot.

It won't be simple if one ask complicated questions.....!!!

BTW Do you still wish for me to continue to answer the final question....???

 

"Why would you not want to learn from someone who teaches chi kung and Kung fu?"

I would like you to answer the question. I believe you do a disservice to many by posting such things without explanation, especially to the inexperienced person looking for advice. The layperson looking for information regarding tai ji, gong fu, or qigong may be led astray or miss excellent opportunities to find a practice by blindly following your advice.

The is one way to choose a teacher. Here are some of the things that is dead give away not to learn from this individual.

 

If someone claim that he teachs

1. Chi Kung and Kung Fu.

2. Karate and Kung Fu.

3. Tai Ji and Kung Fu.

 

Of course, this is only my opinion but I would use it as a guideline to choose my teacher.

Those are three huge generalities!!!

In general, I would agree that karate and Kung fu are differently energetically, and in their core movements. it would be difficult to teach both.

Tai chi is kung fu, but for argument sake I'll assume you meant hard styles. In that case I have seen, and worked with several kung fu teachers who very effectively teach both tai chi and qi gong in addition to a hard style.

TCM is not traditional. TCM was essentially invented as a crash course to train the barefoot doctors. What we call TCM should, in all accuracy, be renamed Modern Chinese Medicine.

 

Andrew and Heiner have already covered the distinction better than I care to here, so I'll just add weigh in on my experience studying Chinese medicine and observing doctors in China and in the West.

 

TCM doctors tend to rely on western medicine diagnostics and theories whereas CCM doctors are comfortable operating on pure Chinese medicine principles. Clinically speaking, practicioners who use pure Chinese medicine are more effective. However, they also tend to be much more dedicated to medical study and personal cultivation than their counterparts. Some of the good doctors I've met were initially educated in a TCM institution but later researched the classics as clinicians. Others trained from the beginning in a medical lineage. In common, the best doctors all live, eat, and breath Chinese medicine and Daoist philosophy. So ultimately, I think personal dedication plays the biggest part.

 

In other words, I think it's not so important where you start. What matters is how much you invest. But know from the outset that all roads in Chinese medicine lead back to the classics. The classics are classics for a reason. Every great doctor thoughout history drew tremendous inspiration from them.

 

If you want to really do yourself a favor, learn to read them in ancient Chinese. The classics are multilayered, difficult and beautiful. They are tools designed to expand your mind. Sadly, translations render them dry and one dimensional (though reading multiple translations can give the reader a better taste).

While much of what 松永道 says is true, my experience has been a bit different. I'm currently in the 4th year of my TCM program. We spent the first two years learning theory - points, diagnosis, herbs and formulas. Though the textbooks were all modern, they frequently reference the classics. Take a look at the Bensky and Deadman texts commonly used, and you will see a massive bibliography, and sources quoted. During those first 2 years, we also study western medicine - biology, chemistry, anatomy and physiology, and pathophysiology. There is rarely an attempt from either side to integrate the two sciences. In the third year we go deeper into all the subjects, and we start to see some integration. We have classes called TCM Internal Medicine in which we compare western diagnosis, and CM diagnosis, and look at treatment options. We also have specialty classes that do the same. In the third and fourth year we also have our clinic internship. While we have to adhere to Western medical standards when it comes to intake (i.e. blood pressure, pulse, and appropriate physical exams), and layer in the TCM approach (tongue, pulse, etc.), we approach all patients from a CM perspective, in fact in CA we are not allowed to offer a medical diagnosis. If we feel the patient needs further examination we must refer that patient to the appropriate western doctor. My teachers have mostly explained to us that we learn the western not to impose or supersede the CM diagnosis, but to be able to speak with western medical doctors, and use modern diagnosis methods where appropriate. This, in my opinion, does not water down the medicine. It simply gives us more tools to better serve the patient.

All of my Chinese teachers reference the classics, and all of them offer additional reading lists outside the California State TCM references.

Bob Flaws, a frequent translator of Chinese medicine classics, has basically called bullish*t on the whole TCM/CCM debate. Ming Liu, opposing Heiner and others, has stated that the link between Daoism and Chinese medicine isn't as strong as we are led to believe. Of course Sun Si Miao was a famous CM doctor and Daoist, but I believe he contends that Daoist medicine and Chinese medicine exist within their own paradigms, but frequently overlap and borrow from each other. Remember every lineage, every region, village, family all had their own versions of Chinese medicine. TCM was simply a modern standardization of those techniques. Of course stuff was lost or mistranslated, and is only now being rediscovered and examined. But it's not like CCM was a codified medicine replaced by TCM.

All of that being said, I'm moving forward with a doctorate and phd program with a heavy emphasis on the classic text and language as I believe you have to know the classics, build a foundation, before you can really move forward and excel in a subject.