ridingtheox

after a long drive to SoCal yesterday which featured no practice other than breath work behind the wheel, this morning i did long form (vol 4) 23 min and midmorning MSW adv 2 vol 7 25 min ... lots of awareness of spinal energy rising and spreading along with good periods of y -> breath; qi -> movement/tempo...

peace all

sometimes heart rate / strenght is perceptible some times not is the norm for me

have a couple of days of long form 20 min + Adv MSW # 3 30 min session ... feeling back to 'normal' after serious bout of bacterial infection ... hoping to start a 100 day program of FP next week including one or more of the short standing, MSW and the long form ... my new years resolution leading up to the Year of the Horse

Hi Charlie,

Happy New Year!

 

Sorry to take so long to chime in with an answer to your request.

 

There are no names that I know of for the advanced seated "Monk Serves Wine" Meditations on either Vol. 2 or Vol.7 of the Chi Kung For Health DVD series. When GM Doo Wai taught the MSW Meditations to me, he just went through more than 20 of them one after another without the breathing and then told me the breathing formulas on a separate day (expecting me to have practiced just the movements, which I did).

 

I agree that this name-less situation is sub-optimal, as calling each MSW meditation by its breathing sequence is cumbersome. So, to resolve this pain-in-the-butt situation, I think that we should have a contest this year, where FP Practitioners suggest names for each of their favorite MSW meditations.

Better yet, we can make it truly challenging and start a haiku chain, where any one of the 3 lines of the poem (5 , 7, and 5 syllables each line) can contain the suggested name of the particular MSW Meditation. I think this will certainly squeeze, knead, whip or pound the poetic and yogic genius out of all participants. And make y'all more alert to the specific effects of each of the MSW meditations.

 

Hmm, the more I think about this remedy, the more I like it. If a poetry contest is good enough to bring a Hui Neng out of the kitchen and into the seat of the Chan patriarch, maybe a MSW poetry contest might bring forward the next avatar, Master of FP, or at least the next Richard Bach. For this endeavor, I will nominate myself and and a couple of my more advanced students--including Fu-doggy in Orlando--to judge the best names for the individual "Monk Serves Wine" exercises.

 

What do you think? I think it's how I'm gonna roll this new year as a teacher.

 

Let's get started:

 

Fast means don't supper.

Then you'll find Monk Serves Wine Three

the "Waker Upper."

 

OK. Bring it on, FP'ers.

 

**Thanks for the post, Charlie. Now look what you've started!**

 

Happy New Year to all,

 

Sifu Terry

Hi Terry,

I now know that Adv MSW 1 is a sleeper and 3 is a waker . I was practicing those two exactly backward just because of the order i learned them . Doing 1 early in the day, 2 early afternoon and 3 late in the evening ... before bed! AArrgggh.

Now I do the three #3 (after a long form), #1 evening after dinner before bed ...

"y" leads Steady breath

Eager to learn chi propells

Big Sleeper to rest

well its something ...

I do #2 ADV still around mid day and am just learning #4 ADV for the new year. Not just 'horsing' around until Jan 31.

charlie

would someone point me to the 'name' list for the five Advanced Seated Meditations: Monk Serves Wine. I see that no. 1 on the disk is Big Sleeper.

I have trouble following the breath number identification for some reason.

thanks

To riding the Ox: you are not sleeping well even after doing what Sifu calls the Sleeper from vol. 7?

O this is not a timely response sorry I have always been a light sleeper. Did not connect

the sleeper with ADV Monk Serves Wine immediately aaargh. I was doing ADV MSW 1, 2, 3 1 in the morning 3 at night grrrr

a

and Yes even tafter switching my sleep is not normal ... some of my intellectual baggage statistics, chemistry, ecology had some good insights in the day on waking in the night ... now it doesn't serve so well LOL

things may have improved since i switched , but other problems have arisen, which interrupted my practice for several days ... thanks for the inquiry

i second that .. Dunn is an excellent teacher and uses the levels to reach beginners and advanced students

www.taichimania.com select the DVD link and from there the Chi Kung for health ( qi gong = chi kung )

As you are mentioning colds I'll share what works for me and I didn't catch cold while everyone in my house caught it. I do jala neti every morning (mainly because of dust allergy). It keeps my sinuses clean. I also take vitamin d3 10.000 IU almost every day and little bit of zinc.

 

Stress has very bad effect on immune system so minimizing it is important. Meditation is great for that.

I do neti pretty regularly .. it helps some, but does not eliminate colds ... I also find some help by taking a tincture of echinacea. The zinc may reduce the intensity of the cold, as it has the current one I have.

However, for nearly 20 years we lived in the country herding cattle ... I HAD almost NO colds, in contrast to the preceding 20 years living in New Orleans where I had them regularlyand severally, each winter.

Reexposue to urban population concentration and contagion especially that brought home from school is the reason, I find most compelling. My stress when visiting grandson is very low eg blood pressure falls significantly even from levels in my country life. and here I have even more time to meditate and practice qi gong.

Contagion and exposure are the determining factors for me.

FPCH :

reflections on three years of practice.

First some background

I started Tai Chi in 1977 in Vancouver, BC, Canada. My teacher was James Syvitski another grad student at UBC. He taught a Yang style long form which I have practiced ever since. I taught the basic form for almost 20 years in New Orleans. During that time I encountered Sifu Dunn's tape and modified my form with that influence and some other workshops. For a long time in the late 90's and early 2000's I practiced only intermittently having assumed responsibility for cattle operations. Since retiring from my cattle herding avocation, I have gradually increased the amount of time practicing Tai Chi and Flying Phoenix qi gong. I jumped into doing the long form (disc 4) since I had quite a bit of background.

I practice almost every day (99%) Tai chi long form, and long form standing FP qi gong. In addition I have added some of the advanced seated meditations (80%) and also some standing forms, Wu ji Zhan Zhuong (3 -4 times a week).

Now to my reflections:

Qi gong is about developing and accumulating internal energy: health and stamina for me. Hence I practice daily if at all possible. Qi long ago became a palpable reality. It is related to breath, but goes beyond breath to respiration all the way to the cellular level. (Tingling sensations and numbness are indicators that circulation is good or is blocked and needs clearing, for example.) Qi can be accumulated and is stored in the dan tien. A general improvement in 'core' stamina and strength can be felt as more practice is done. Sensations of chi movement are part of the practice.

There has been a good bit of discussion of how slow or how long the time is for a form to take. Time issues are a western concern in my opinion. What a beginner should look for is the feeling of flow of qi. The pace for doing a form should flow with the qi, too fast and you lose it, too slow and you may not find it. I try to move gently and continuously throughout the movements. No jerks, constant speed, with the exception that sky (celestial) meditation and earth meditation positions may involve briefly pausing in the posture. I feel I have completed a successful route when my mind is focused on breath while moving. Dan tien breathing, expanding and contracting the abdomen in a way that the qi is stored in the dan tien. If my mind wanders I try to note that and bring it back to the breath and qi. The speed of the form, the length of practice takes care of itself.

I do note that my initial practice of any of the forms is usually faster than other forms I am practicing, but slows to a near constant pace as practice in the new form is accumulated.

My long form standing meditation takes something around 20 minutes occasionally as much as +/- 3 min. Often I note a lessening of intensity and more mind wandering associated with the aberrant session.

I don't generally feel the shaking, jumping as a form of qi, but rather feel a slow, long wave, pulse that travels about my torso and out into my arms only occasionally into my legs. I have significant increases in saliva production, during practice.

I had great hopes of developing an immune system that kept me from getting colds, and serious sinus infections. So far my grandson has passed all his school colds along to me … LOL.

Still I feel like the practice has kept me in good shape for my 73 year old body. I feel like it has kept me flexible and energetic as others around me stiffen and slow. Whatever; the fact is that I have committed to practicing for as long as I am able.

charlie

i think i tried to make this point earlier. the time a form takes varies from person to person based on their experience and back ground and varies with length of having practiced and finally varies with other minor factors so that length of time is almost irrelevant for beginners. Do the form slowly absolutely, Sifu Dunn's examples are a perfectly good starting point, but most important is to actually feel the flow of qi. Too slow or too fast and you won't feel it as a beginner keep to Sifu's presentation rate. Feeling the flow is also not the same as 'imagining the flow' or visualizing it. When you feel it you will know it.

my long form practice takes much longer now than it did in the beginning, do it slower than Sifu's demonstration (after almost 3 years) that is also true for some of the seated meditations, but some of them remain about the same timing as shown on the dvd's, because that is where the flow of qi for that form is for me now.

this does inject a measure of uncertainty in how long a given practice session will last so that I have to always allow more time than the form actually takes.

at first blush ... not a cajun ??

absolutely agree w/ Sifu on postponing doing the meditations without breath sequence until you have the basics well established. i did not mean to imply otherwise. I do play with the forms, verifying that i am keeping to the processes in various ways and trying to observe, to listen to what transpires. But the demonstrated practice is still the overwhelming majority of my daily routines.

Likewise I did not do mirror image Tai Chi Chuan until I had been doing the Yang long form for several (5 years). Some teacher mentioned that possibility at a workshop ( thrty years ago).

Hope I have not introduced a misleading take on the earlier post rather people see it as my own experience and reflections on the amazing health / energy benefits I have internalized.

thanks

charle

I'm a bit confused right now...

I've tried, as an experiment, to do standing meditations without the breathing sequence at the start. In this manner I can more clearly see the purpose of the breath control sequence.

 

Well, for me the immediate effects (tingling, liquid sensations in the body, ecc..) that I usually feel are still present

 

So, assuming that without the breath sequence FP energy doesn't start, is it possible that I have mistaken normal feelings with something caused by FP energy (maybe doing the breath sequence in a wrong way)?

Or is it that the residual FP energy actived the previous day, still present itself with body movments/postures?

I like your experiment .. I do something similar ... for instance I do the long form in mirror image. It seems quite interesting to see what happens when one doesn't close the eyes, especially for me in the beginning. I realized that my 'inner ear' based balance had deteriorated, quite the normal process for an older person experience. So I opened my eyes as I did the postures requiring standing on one leg or bending backward. Gradually my inner ear balance recovered enough to allow doing the entire form with eyes closed, although from time to time I sense the balance is less precise depending on inner ear only.

Occasionally, I do any meditation looking in the mirror or without the breath sequence in order to check my posture and motions with the dvd or just to do it that way! I always feel the energy flowing. It is true that I adhere as closely as possible to the instruction most of the time. The cumulative effect continues to make each exercise richer in the long run even as postures occasionally seem to plateau within a given period of time.

I still seem to have some stiffness (probably arthritis) in my neck and I include a little turning of the head in some of the postures and motions. I do notice some head/neck motion in Sifu Dunn's demos, though not much turning. I attribute the gradual reduction in tension and stiffness in the neck to my gentle turning left and right during practice.

When you are in the beginning stage of learning tai chi or qi gong, certainly concentrate on following the dvd, or instructor as closely as possible, Listen to your body very attentively, there is much to discover. Keep an accepting attitude,

Peas please

Is energy as we are culturally used to interpret it, the same as chi? In my experience the linguistic problem of what is chi can confuse people. Chi, and this is my experience is not the same as physical stamina or energy. Athletes can be in quite strong physical condition and strength and NOT have a well developed chi flow/storage.

Anecdote: my nephew was a young runner and in quite good energy stamina. I challenged him to stand Zhan Zhuang, several years later he told me he had tried to do what I suggested and found it extraordinarily difficult surprizingly 'tiring too.

My experience suggested another analogy: chi feels like a magnetic attraction or repulsion; it can be overcome by physcal muscle, but long term cultivation increases the effort that must be applied to overcome. My practice of FP continues to delight and amaze me. Currently, sitting forms send chills and waves over much of my back as well as the strong 'magnetic' signals. Several years ago I damaged a nerve in one finger while lifting hay bales by the baling strings. The nerve damage left a 'dead' spot. The FP has begun to restore that feeling, it tingles very strongly during practice, much more than other fingers.

Thirdly; the practice has very positive effect on longstanding anxieties. Endorphins are often cited by western medicine as reducing stress and anxiety. Years of bicycling certainly supports that point, but tai chi and FP practice have a much more significant impact for my experience. (I no longer live in a place that bicycling is a real option for me.) My experience thus consists of hi energy bicycling alone, a long period of both cycling and tai chi, and now a period of tai chi/chi kung only.

Chi is similar to energy, and can overcome illness, injury but is not what we in the west are used to thinking of as 'energy.' While it is still useful to use energy when talking about outcomes of practice, I think it is useful to understand that they are not identical.

so this is a rather long rant, hope it helps someone else to consider these ideas

peace

FP observations and insights. Breathing in and out of the dantien, moving the focus of awareness into the lower abdomen and accumulating energy there. FP and my own teaching Tai Chi after a long quiescent period 'chasing cows' in the real world. Recently I have reflected on inspiration and expiration, the respiration process. Which led to a new understanding of whole body breath. Meditation on the process of cellular respiration, oxygen being delivered to each cell in the body constantly, and carbon dioxide being moved from the cell into the blood to be delivered to the lungs for exchange also at the cellular level in alveolae. What a miracle and mystery this process is, It amazes me and brings me closer to clarity on the interconnectedness of all beings.

What a gift to apprehend and remain curious about the nature of life!

thanks

charlie

John,

do you actually have vol 6? I thought it was not out yet?

Business news for all Flying Phoenix Chi Kung practitioners and enthusiasts:

The retail price of Volume One "5 Basic Standing Meditations" and of Volume Two "6 Basic Seated Meditations" of the Chi Kung For Health DVD series will be increased to by $5.00 to $29.95 effective September 1--after exactly 10 years at the current bargain price. These titles can still be purchased at the current price of $24.95 from now through August 31.

 

Thank you to all for your support over the years.

 

Sifu Terry Dunn

 

www.taichimania.com/chikung_catalog.html

still a really great bargain!! (I just ordered the yang long form on dvd as my old tape is dead after 20 ? years!)

John has me considering a question: How many minutes of Flying Phoenix to hit the tipping point energetically?

 

What I mean by this is, How many minutes of FP gets you into a really strong energetic state?

 

IIRC Sifu Terry once said doing three of the advanced MSW series would yield really good results. Several of the advanced MSW meditations take me around 45 minutes to complete. So three of them can take a good two hours or more to complete.

 

So to answer my original question: *While any amount of time doing FP yields positive benefits*, for me personally at about the 45 minute mark FP practice, the FP energy hits a tipping point where the energy feels like it jumps up a level in power and also the benefits seem to take a jump as well.

 

I'm curious if anyone else has noticed a tipping point, and if yes when does it kick in?

 

Lloyd

John's answer is pretty complete, my experience is that the length of time before the intensity of the experience increases dramatically can vary significantly. Years ago doing the simple, standing still meditation (zhan zhuang) seemed to make the transition around 30 min, very suddenly. Recently, revisiting that exercise and after two years of FP daily, I can say that within 5 min the ramping up of qi began. Although it still takes several minutes (5-10) to reach what I think of as very deep physical energy; that is not quite so sudden a transition, but the level is much the same. Mathematically the two are like a) a discrete step function and a logistic curve if that means anything to you.

I'm a dragon, so, at worst, I'm opposite :/

There seems to be a lot of truth to the Chinese zodiac, I'm finding.

interesting I am a metal dragon ('40) no description of dragons or metals . describe me , my wife agrees. My son is a dog, not a good fit to any astrology. My daughter is an ox and it fits her. a big fan of astrology I am not. One fit out of four seems pretty poor odds

when you have time lie on a firm surface, letting your back sink into the earth. at first(1) you may need to raise the knees some to let the lumbar region 'flatten' (2) also tuck your chin to remove a little of the cervical curvature which for you extends into the upper thoracic spine. Try lying for 3 minutes to begin, breathing a normal chi breath (dan tien, tongue on roof mouth etc.). slowly lengthen the time.

after doing this exercise daily for a week, two weeks? add the following:

move from lying to standing posture with your back against a wall. Your heels should be an inch or so from the wall, bend the knees slightly ... a 'normal' zhan zhuang posture. Flatten your back as if you were lying down. Caution! This will not likely be easy, now your muscles must replace the force of gravity. DO NOT try to flatten so that it causes pain. Remember the 70% rule, only 70% of maximum energy expended. Secondly move your back away from the wall so that your weight moves forward onto the bubbling well point in the feet. Repeat slowly moving back to the wall and then away. DO NOT strain ... breathe into this exercise.

With your curvature you may expect several months .. perhaps longer for this new posture to take on a 'natural' tai chi/q gong feel. Be Patient. Be Persistent.

I hope this helps...

A LOT of sweat here from doing Monk holding pearl and Wind above the clouds, in my city the temperature goes up to 40° in these days

hope it's ok to drink some water between the two exercises...

i would assert it is not 'ok' it is required! there is no support in these exercises/meditations to act foolishly. Water is as essential to life as oxygen. Listen to your body, drink water when you need .

Just a quick note: After several weeks of daily Advanced seated meditation. I continue to have impressive experiences. My 'monkey' mind continues to quiet, concentration on breath improves outside disturbances seldom intrude, noise cancelling head sets not required! The practice is just always positive. My energy level is good, I can mostly keep up with my busy grandson (1-1/2 yr). It takes about 35 min to do this ASM (the 1st one).

I continue to do some Zhan Zhuang. Sessions between 30 and 55 minute. Three to four times a week.

The FPHH system has given a real boost to my 'spiritual' practice as well as Tai Chi ..

I am regularly recommending it to friends.

Peace

the thread seems to have veered into chaotic moments ...

i feel there is a slipping between individualism and broader human experience of groups. My tai chi chuan has been a bed rock of health, mental and physical. There are so many teachers it is impossible to sample them all, there may be some help in trying a little Chen style if you mostly play Yang (me).

But the core message is 'just do the practice.' different individuals may react physically, mentally and spiritually to 8 Pieces, Zhan Zuang, FP ... Early on one must learn to listen to ones own body, opening it, to ones own mind opening, to ones own spirit, opening.

There are many paths, finding the path is difficult but even following the wrong path sincerely and diligently is more likely to lead to the correct path for each person than wandering from path to path briefly.

It is possible to ask the wrong questions; for self and for community. And it is very easy to become wedded to the 'rightness' of questions and answers.

Peace is possible

Steve - 100 consecutive days is a "gong" in traditional Chinese terms.... it's considered the minimum amount of time to focus on a particular practice.

i had forgotten that 'gong' issue. Several times in my 30+ years of tai chi, a teacher has recommended a practice to be followed for 100 days. That does not mean that one must end at 100, though I almost always reach a point that some new area of practice arises. Already looking forward to a 'gong' of advanced short form + advanced Monk Serves Wine. Self designed I hope to do two of the short standing and a seated form, but first I have to learn the seated forms. One down and 4 to go.

Report: I completed 100 days of Long Form FP + one or (usually) more seated Monk Serves Wine in June. Mostly my energy stayed high and bp low. Then i took a short break, not stopping entirely, but just more free form. A little more concentration on my Tai Chi Chuan long form, which I am teaching. In addition i stumbled into the Stand Still Be Fit on youtube, instantly remembered that I had taught that during my time in New Orleans. Almost immediately, i was able to stand 40 min. Eight min per each of the 5 positions. I remember how hard it was for me to do 20 min in 1995, when I was still bicycling regularly and only 55 yrs. I attribute the 40 min to the last two years of FP LF (long form). I have done this now several times over the last week.

This week, I started disk 7 the advanced seated Monk Serves Wine. First set only so far. Immediately I noted that my rate of movement wanted to be much slower than MSW 1-3. Series 1 takes just under 30 min. There are too many observational sensations for me to write about today. I am very comfortable with the change in my practice this new addition has brought, but do wonder how I will do more time each day?

Also the FP LF continues to clock in at 20 +/- min, there is almost a block to trying to move more slowly and the benefits continue just the same so I am not trying to force it slower.

OK this is a long post for me. Enjoy reading all of your posts. Thanks for sharing your experiences.