tccii

Then my plan didn't work out...

The selected bibliography is great, my comment was not intended as a criticism.

In my way of seeing, there is very little "academic" in this bibliography. I give references to texts in Chinese, but one doesn't need to be an academic to read them. I quote books published by academic presses, because in several cases those are the only available translations of a text. I give the main details on each text (author, date) because I think they are useful to everybody, and here I have omitted as many technical details as possible. I mention lineages, because one should know what kind of text one is reading. I reproduce translations of a few passages for almost all texts, so that those who don't know them can get a glimpse and decide whether they may be interesting. I point out problems in certain "popular" translations of Taoist texts (or popular websites such as Wikipedia),

By "technical" and "academic", I did not intend to refer to details of citation, which are essential for any sort of bibliography. In fact, those items which you cited tended to strengthen your work. I had expected a short list of books. You provided much more.

because I think everyone should know what they are reading (believe me, here I could have been much nastier).

While there is no reason to be nasty, I don't think there would have been problem with you providing more critical commentary on some of the works.

The last point is especially important. If you cannot compare many of those translations to the original texts, you have no idea of how much their translators omit from (and in some cases, add to) a text. As a rule, everything that is too difficult, or would at least require an explanation, is omitted. Then a good editor cleans up their English, their prose sounds smooth and captivating, and everybody says "wow". The original Chinese text, however, says something else.

Agreed. Unfortunately, many of the works in question are only available in the English language in translations of questionable quality. This is, in fact, why a bibliography from someone with your background could be so useful. For example, you suggest the "Long Hu Jing" and "Zhong Lu Zhan Dao Ji" in your bibliography. The only English language translation cited for both of these is by Eva Wong, giving her 2 of 9 of your selected bibliography. Would you say that these works are so important to an aspiring Internal Alchemy practitioner that this translation is better than nothing for the someone not fluent in Ancient Chinese or non-academic (i.e. someone not trained in Taoist studies), or would it be better to replace it with another text that has a sound English language translation?

The "historical" reconstructions of Taoism and Taoist alchemy found in those books are often works of fantasy. For example, to compile this bibliography, I checked Eva Wong's "The Tao of Health, Longevity, and Immortality". In the space of three pages (p. 6 and p. 8), she is able to say, first, that "the alchemists of the late Han through the Chin (254-420 CE) dynasties" practiced "internal alchemy", and then that "the early phase of internal alchemy started around the end of the Tang dynasty". So, did it start in the 2nd/4th century, or in the 9th century? We know for sure now that there are no sources, references, or allusions to internal alchemy before the 8th century in Taoist, Confucian, Buddhist, medical, or literary works.

Your point is quite valid here in the strict sense of defining "Internal Alchemy". Although I am not overly fond of Eva Wong's work, I have great appreciation for the effort involved. To look at it from a different perspective that might underscore some of the issues: What Wong says on page 6 of the above cited work is "Thus the early Taoist arts of longevity were a mixture of external alchemy... sexual alchemy... and internal alchemy, the method of transforming the body with breath control, calisthenics, and meditation." Rather than embarking on a "work of fantasy", do you think it possible that she simply made a mistake common among non-specialists in the field -- that is confounding the terms Internal Alchemy and Internal Cultivation?

There are a lot of reciprocal biases between academics and non-academics (sorry, I don't know what other term I should use here, but I don't want to say "practitioners", because that's not the point of the distinction). This is perhaps implied in the very essence of the "academia". But I find it unfortunate that the non-academics can rarely benefit from the views or the works of the academics.

Agreed. Most practitioners who only speak English have no idea of where to start.

Here it is. I hope it's more or less what you meant... Let me know. The bibliography of Western-language works is found in the appendix at the end.

 

I will also post a copy in my website.

 

Fabrizio

Fabrizio,

Thank you for taking the time to compile the annotated bibliography. It is certainly well thought out and presented.

Although it is probably still a little too technical for a beginning Neidan student, it is fantastic as an introduction to primary texts on Neidan for those with a more academic interest.

Do you anticipate publishing a translation of the Bao Pu Zior Taiyi Jinhua Zongzhi in the near future?

Thank you,

Shawn

Shawn,

 

Please let me understand...

 

First, you mean a bibliography to Wang Mu's "Foundations of Internal Alchemy", right? -- Not to "Awakening to Reality", I guess, which already has a short bibliography.

 

Second, you mean a bibliography of Chinese texts quoted by Wang Mu? -- Not a bibliography of Neidan, I hope ...

 

Third, how many works?... Well, I would try to include all works quoted by Wang Mu, with at least a minimum of information on their authors.

 

Please let me know if this is what you meant.

 

Fabrizio

Fabrizio,

Certainly a bibliography of the Chinese texts quoted by Wang Mu would be useful. I also understand you already have a fairly comprehensive bibliography of Neidan which is 300+ works. However, I was heading toward something a little different...

Given the questions on this thread, it occurred to me that what might be really helpful for people new to Alchemy would be a concise introductory bibliography for aspiring Neidan practitioners. The questions on this tread are similar to those we get in the courses that we teach, namely "What books should we read?" Our usual answer is "Forget the books, practice! Spend the time you would be reading practicing." However, this is hard for Westerners, given the way most people are conditioned to learn.

So perhaps what is needed is a good, short, introductory annotated bibliography. Suppose we arbitrarily limited it to 10 works (or nine if you want a nice Taoist number). Let us also assume that the audience has limited access to university libraries, so the books should be readily available and not prohibitively expensive. You are probably in a fairly unique position to provide some great input given your, undoubtedly, extensive knowledge of the literature. Which works do you think would be essential to a novice practitioner in the field and why?

Does that help clarify and narrow the scope?

Shawn

Fabrizio,

A concise, annotated bibliography would be a useful addition to "Awakening to Reality."

How few works do you think you could include to make it 1) a reasonably comprehensive overview and 2) accessible to the non-academic/specialist in the field?

Best regards,

Shawn

Fabrizio,

I'd like to say thank you for your work of translating and publishing Taoist texts in an accessible format. There are so few translated into the English language relative to the great number out there. It is also great that you took the time to answer questions about them. Although, from an editorial point of view, I may not agree with all your choices regarding how to render certain concepts in the English language, you have undoubtedly done a great service by providing them.

Best regards,

Shawn

Hello, I am interested in Taoism, especially Neidan, Qigong and related arts.