tccii

I ordered my copy of Fabrizio's translation of the CanTongQi last night, can't wait for it to arrive! Thank you for bringing it to our attention. Thanks and Blessings!

You are welcome!

I am glad to hear you picked up a copy of his excellent book and hope you enjoy reading it!

Hi Rainy_Day,

Thank you for undertaking a task as challenging as translating some of the Taoist classics. There are so few people doing it relative to the vast corpus of material it is always nice to see someone jump in so enthusiastically.

You may already be aware of this, but there are a few resources available that can help you with some of the terminology.

First I would suggest Isabelle Robinet's essays on Nei Dan "The World Upside Down: Essays on Taoist Internal Alchemy."

Second, Fabrizio Pregadio's recent translation of the The Zhou Yi Can Tong Qi provides extensive commentary on the meaning of the esoteric language used in Nei Dan. Since Pregadio provides the original Chinese, you can also see how he translates certain common phrases. As you probably know, the Can Tong Qi is one of the most important source texts of Nei Dan. It strongly influenced much of the later literature.

You are undoubtedly aware of the many pitfalls facing the translators, but I go into some detail about the specific challenges facing the translators of the Nei Dan classics in our recent paper called Interpreting the Ancient Codes. It also includes an interview with Fabrizio Pregadio and a review of his translation of the Can Tong Qi. There is a thread about it here.

Again, thank you for your work in this area!

Thank you very much! Look forward to reading it.

many thanks!

You are quite welcome!

We have recently published a review of Fabrizio Pregadio's new book on the Can Tong Qi along with an interview of him in our paper:

Our new paper, Interpreting the Ancient Codes: Exploring the Classics of Taoist Alchemy contains an exclusive interview with Fabrizio Pregadio. In it, he discusses his interest in the Taoist texts of Nei Dan as well as his new translation of the Zhou Yi Can Tong Qi. The paper is available as a free download from TCCII. For those who don't want to download it, here is a selection of questions and answers taken from our blog:

We've just published a review of Fabrizio Pregadio's The Seal of the Unity of Three, A Study and Translation of the Can Tong Qi (Golden Elixir Press, 2011).

The full review is included in our paper Interpreting the Ancient Codes available as a free PDF download from our site.

Here is an except from the review posted on our blog for those who don't want to click off this site:

Charles Luk (Lu Kuan Yu) has some well written and accessible works on Chan Buddhism. His Secrets of Chinese Meditation is a great place to start. He provides a systematic introduction to several of the major Buddhist schools in China, including their primary approaches to meditation. He also provides a translation of a short work on Taoist meditation at the end.

Also, if you can find them for a reasonable price, his three volume series Chan and Zen Teaching is excellent. It is a shame it is out of print.

Hi tccii. I am just familiar with the descriptions of him from his books and from what little else

he revealed about himself in his comments in his books. He seemed to me like a very sincere person

and very dedicated to helping preserve Buddhist and some other Chinese cultivation teachings.

 

...

There is a list of his books here:

http://hsuyun.budismo.net/en/luk.html

 

A notable Western student of Lu Kuan Yu was Richard Hunn, who is also now passed away.

 

Best...

Hi TWIV. Thank you for the link to the site with more information about one of his teachers and his publications. It is a shame that very few of his books are still in print. As I mentioned previously, his scholarship was impressive.

As a general note to those who are interested: I would strongly recommend his three part series on Chan and Zen teachings, if you can find it. Even if you are mostly interested in Taoism, there is still quite a bit to be learned about cultivating the Xing (Essential Nature) from Chan. Actually, given the overall quality of his work, I would not hesitate to pick up any of his books if I found them.

Hi tccii! Thank you for the good describing and details about the Zhao Bi Chen and his book!

In any case, he made a big good for development the doctrine of Tao, especially since the book was translated into English, and then actually been one of few sources of Taoist alchemy for the West. That's why it's so popular.

 

But we do not must overestimate meaning this book, you are also noticed:

"This is not to say that it provides a complete description of Nei Dan (內丹) nor is it suitable as a practice guide without a teacher...Rather he intended the book to be a type of roadmap or check against which a student could measure what he learned from a teacher."

 

Also The Way Is Virtue correctly wrote: "...all people need to study this sort of practice under the guidance of an accomplished teacher, if one can find one and the teacher is willing to teach them."

Hi GP,

Thanks for your comments. I think we all agree that a teacher is required.

It would also be better if we could show restraint in our criticism of the various schools of cultivation. This is especially true if we haven't actually studied their methods. Regardless of their strengths or weaknesses they exist because they helped someone at some point. The Buddhist say there are 84,000 expedient methods. Why? Because there are so many different types of people in the world.

It is rare enough to meet actual practitioners in person, let alone online. Let's not follow the path of our martial relatives and end up with endless school/lineage wars.

Hi tccii! Thanks for the further details about Zhao's tradition. Just to be clear, nowhere did I suggest that Zhao's book describes a complete system, nor have I suggested one could properly practice internal alchemy based just on Zhao's book.

Understood. I wrote that with the general audience in mind, not you specifically.

I am also quite familiar with Lu Kuan Yu's background as well. I've enjoyed reading several of his books.

Best wishes to you...

I'd be interested in learning more about Lu's background if you have time or could point me to a source. His "Chan and Zen" series is quite well done. It is interesting to note that in the case of Chan, he thought people would be better off with his books than with a poor teacher. His series is so well written that I could almost agree.

I believe Zhao Bi Chen said he sought out and learned from various teachers, including both Buddhists and Taoists, from what I recall. He also mentioned that he encountered a number of false 'masters' in his search as well.

Hi TWIV,

I don't want to get in the way of your exchange with GP, but having actually studied Zhao's system from at least two teachers, here is some additional information for your consideration.

Zhao Bi Chen (趙避塵, 赵避尘) is famous primarily because he is one of the first practitioners to write a comprehensive book (Xing Ming Fa Jue Ming Zhi, 性命法訣明指, 性命法诀明指) describing in detail the methods and practices of Internal Alchemy. He attempts to describe the practice in relatively plain language, so that your average person (with a teacher) could understand it. It is important to realize, however, that the book is still quite difficult as written words can only go so far to explain this very esoteric practice.

Zhao's book was translated intoEnglish as "Taoist Yoga: Alchemy & Immortality" by Charles Luk (Lu Kuan Yu,陸寬昱, 陆宽昱),one of the last of a generation of British trained scholars fluent in both Eastern and Western cultures. It is the most complete, publicly available work on Internal Alchemy in the English language. This is not to say that it provides a complete description of Nei Dan (內丹) nor is it suitable as a practice guide without a teacher.

In some regards, Zhao broke with the tradition of secrecy by writing the book. However, it is not believed that he expected someone to learn the practice from the book. Rather he intended the book to be a type of roadmap or check against which a student could measure what he learned from a teacher.Zhao was very much concerned about false teachers, having encountered more than a few, and wanted future students to have a "yardstick."

Zhao's system was influenced by several sources. He is considered to have inherited the essence of the Longmen Pai Nei Dan (Bei Zhong, Northern School). He was also influenced by the Wu Liu Pai (itself a Buddhist/Taoist synthesis), Chan Buddhism, and the Nan Pai (Nan Zhong, Southern School). It is worthy of note that the Wu Lu Pai was only one source of Zhao's teachings with the Longmen Pai probably being the most influential source. In any case, Zhao's teachings are not, of course, fully described in his book.

Hi tccii. Can you provide any details about who your teachers of these traditions are and maybe a little about them? Is this info on your website?

Since you asked so nicely, how could I refuse!

Following is partial list of our Chinese teachers.

http://silenttao.com...chers-in-china/

They have all made important contributions in some way but in terms Taoism and Nei Dan, the following are most relevant to your question:

Li Laoshi: Technically from the southern Zhong-Lu school, he was also a synthesizer and a scholar. His knowledge was encyclopedic. He answered a lot of questions and filled in a lot of holes. His teaching is the probably the most significant influence on our cultivation.

He Laoshi: Longmen and Taijimen (a secretive Taoist sect,not to be confused with some modern groups that use that appellation). An iconoclast, despite being the abbot of a Taoist temple, he prided himself on never having worn Taoist robes. His use of Qigong for healing and foundation building was a strong influence on our teaching. He organized and explained the principles of using Qigong for healing very thoroughly and systematically.

Chen Laoshi: Wudang Longmen (a branch of the Northern Quanzhen School) He taught a great number of classical Qigong forms, but we had greatest affinity with the Taiyi Qigong material. He taught a system of Nei Dan that most closely resembles Zhao Bi Chen's system.

 

@tccii,

 

as you said, the Foundation practice would be the most approach-able subject for a beginner (please bare in mind that there are here many that have a +10 years of practical experience with the daoist, or better said, Chinese health and meditation arts, and still consider themselves, based on their experience and modest achievemets, as being mere beginners, such is my case also).

 

Actually, I made no assumption about the level of experience of those reading this topic. The Foundation practices are where most everyone new to Nei Dan will start. Having prior experience with meditative and movement arts, as well as language skills are all very useful.

If you are simply interested in learning about the general principles of this stage, you might take a look at Fabrizio's translation of Wang Mu. It provides a rather detailed discussion of the principles and terminology. Although the texts in question are from Nan Pai, other schools will use them as well.

I followed through your guys' discussion which was very informative on a theoretical level, and waited to see if it would ever dare venture into the practical aspect of the teaching.

I suppose this is a good time to ask, what is generally understood by Building the foundation.

 

It's an open question to all, thanks

 

L1

L1, as XY noted, what we have been discussing is directly related to the actual practice. However, I understand that you are inquiring about the specific techniques of the Building the Foundation stage. I appreciate that you limited your question to that part of the practice. It is probably the stage of the practice that could most readily be described in writing, although it would take at least a small book to do it justice. To put it in perspective, we take three days to introduce the first stage in our Internal Alchemy course. This is only after preparing them with three days of basics and nearly a year of personal practice!

However, it is also important to understand that there is no one answer to your question. That Westerners, as part of our general education and conditioning, expect a single answer to a question is one of the great cultural barriers that has to be crossed in order to understand these practices. You will likely find that each school has a slightly different approach and even within a school there would be variation among teachers and their students (see my reply to XY above.)

If you are serious about wanting to study Nei Dan, but do not have a teacher, then the best advice I can give without knowing you would be to establish a diligent Qigong practice of some sort. By diligent I mean daily and committed. A committed daily practice is essential to success in cultivation. There is a saying "Those who start the (Internal Alchemy) practice are as numerous as the hairs on an ox. Those who finish are as rare as the dragon's horns and phoenix's feathers." That is, many people learn it, but few are committed enough to follow through with the practice. If you have a good practice, you will have a good foundation to learn Internal Alchemy when the time, place, and people are right.

The closest word to "theory" in Taoism seems to be jiao 教, "teaching" or "doctrine". And certainly there can't be any "teaching/doctrine vs. practice" issue.

 

This is a key point. One of the things that can quickly alienate a traditional Chinese teacher is a student showing up expecting them to prove that what they teach is true. For many of them, they are not there to "prove" anything, but to transmit. It is expected that the student has already decided that they accept, for example, that it is possible to become a TianXian, and simply wants to know how.

Most of them do not, however, expect you to accept what they say on blind faith. They expect you to be committed and practice and thereby validate the method for yourself. There are levels of understanding which are based upon the students commitment/success in practice. Essentially, they expect you to practice and validate for yourself.

This is my understanding as well. The teachings/doctrine serve as a guide to inform your understanding and practice. Certain parts are rarely or never written down. If they are, key elements are usually omitted.

The question that is often asked is "Why are there secrets?" The most basic answer is for all the reasons anyone keeps secrets. But one of main reasons is because the specific techniques and methods can be varied by the teacher to suit the unique needs of the individual students. The overall approach, however, will usually remain the same within the school.

Physiologically, when does this transition actually occur?

 

At first ejaculation? First time having actual sex? Puberty?

 

Taoist Yoga says that "yang qi & jing" (kidney jing?) starts declining at age 16 in 8-year cycles...which would seem to imply around (or at the end of) puberty?

Vortex, that is very good question. A full answer would be quite drawn out, but to summarize:

The 8 year cycle (for males) is simply a heuristic. It varies greatly by the individual, but provides a relatively simple explanation for the process of growth, decline, and death and how it is reversed.

Although I am not certain that it is fair, Zhao Bi Chen is sometimes criticized as having an overly physiological bias. The distinction between the virgin body and broken body implies more than just physiological processes. It can also refer to the overall constitution and nature. Therefore, sexual activity is not the only thing that can "break" the body, if you will. The 10 Excesses and the emotions (5 or 7 thieves) can do the same thing. These factors generally become aggravated in puberty, as anyone who knows teenagers will confirm!

Second, remember that, although most of the alchemical texts were written from the male perspective, practically speaking it holds true for females as well, although the specific details will vary somewhat.

What this means is in application is there are probably few people, especially Westerners, who would qualify as Tongzi. Almost everyone will need to start with building the foundation. An exception could be the case of a child who has an affinity with cultivation (especially if the child has a calm, untroubled spirit, without a lot of "pollution.") In this case, if you can get them started in the practice before they become sexually active, they could progress faster.

 

what is your lineage? i did not find it on your page.

Nan Pai, Bei Pai, Yin Xian Pai... and parts of a few others.

tccii, once more I entirely agree with you. Just a few remarks:

 

 

I completely agree with this as well. For me, reading (and maybe translating) a text is pure pleasure.

 

And your efforts are certainly appreciated!

 

At the same time, I find it helps to stick with what a tradition (in this case, Taoism or more particularly, Neidan) teaches, instead of fantasizing for one or another reason. (Note that by that "tradition" I mean the Chinese tradition, not its "interpreters" in the West.) It also helps to understand that, while the gist of a doctrine "has no history", its forms and formulations do have a history, because they happen in the so-called real world.

 

I agree that there are too many fantasists, but this is true in all traditions, not just Taoism. It is also not simply limited to the West. There are plenty of Chinese fantasists as well. Although I have had Western teachers who have a better grasp of essential Chinese and Taoist practices than many Chinese teachers, I have also had a number of very highly accomplished Chinese teachers. Like anything else, Caveat Emptor.

One important corollary: there is no need to limit yourself to a textual tradition. Neidan is a living tradition and there are authentic Chinese teachers (and a few Western ones) who are willing to teach Lao Wei!

 

Aren't we saying the same thing in different words?

 

I don't know

 

The perfection of doing. So perfect and absolute that it has nothing to do with "doing" in the common sense of the word, and therefore does not even appear to be "doing". Yet it does everything that needs to be done.

 

 

Your words are not wrong. However, in my understanding of how this applies to Alchemy, they are not "complete." In this case, Wu Wei does not mean nothing is done. It refers to a specific set of practices which are distinct from those of 'You Wei"

 

PS. On one minor point actually I do disagree with you -- when you say "we are talking about the Virgin Body (Tong Zi)". What is the point of translating tongzi as "virgin body"? You may, if you find it useful, explain that tongzi connotes the "virgin body", but then you should explain what you mean by this expression, because this is not what tongzi means in Chinese. In other words, you should not give the impression that "virgin body" is a translation of tongzi. Tongzi just means "child" or "lad".

You are correct regarding the formal, technical meaning of the term. My use of "Tongzi" is not made up, or Western fantasized. My Chinese teachers actually use this term. My understanding is that this meaning of Tongzi is an informal usage. However, since my Chinese language skill is limited, I would not object if you replaced my use of Tongzi with "body of childhood, when the precelestial particle of numinous radiance is not yet damaged."

The key point to understand is that we were distinguishing between the youth with "unbroken Yang lines" and the adult with "broken Yang lines" Does that make sense?

Thanks for your reply, you provide many important details on this question.

 

Let me add that when I equated Superior and Inferior Virtue respectively with the Internal and the External Medicines, I had in mind a passage by Li Daochun (ca. 1290), who is very clear on this point (and many others). If you have Cleary's "Book of Balance and Harmony", it's on pages 21-23.

 

The terms Superior Virtue (SV) and Inferior Virtue (IV) have. as do most other Alchemical terms, multi-variant meanings depending upon the context. Previously, we were talking about "Instant Realization " as it relates to Wu Wei and You Wei. SV and IV have a specific meaning here as it relates to Xian Gong and Dao Gong.

When you take SV and IV in this context, we are talking about the Virgin Body (Tong Zi) in contrast to the broken body, as your sources point out. The key point is that in this context is that we are still using the terms to discuss the methods of Xian Gong.

 

...

Then Li Daochun describes all three stages of the Neidan practice as belonging to the External Medicine. For him, the Internal Medicine is something different. He says:

 

"The Internal Medicine is the essential of refining Spirit. Form and Spirit (Cleary: "body and mind") are both wondrous, and one joins one's truth with the truth of the Dao."

 

This comes after the third stage, which Li Daochun calls "refining Spirit and reverting to Emptiness".

 

The most detailed description that I know about all this is by Liu Yiming. It's quoted by Wang Mu in "Foundations", page 18. If you don't have the book, see here. (Wang Mu omits a few sentences, but quotes the essential.)

 

Wai Yao and Nei Yao are only two of the "Yao"s. There are others.

Also, there can be some variation in the exact usage of terminology between schools. This point, combined with the fact that the entire process was never (to my knowledge at least) completely written down in detail makes it quite challenging to assemble a complete method from purely textual sources.

 

It seems practically impossible to say exactly where the third stage ends and "non-doing" begins.

 

Yes and no. There are clear indicators. That does not mean they cannot be missed in practice.

 

In fact, the whole practice is described as a preparation to exit the practice and enter "non-doing".

 

I would say it differently. The whole of the Xian Gong practice is a preparation to the exit the practice and enter the practice of Dao Gong.

What does "non-doing" mean to you?

Well, these questions do not look easy, and some are probably trick questions, but I will take a crack at trying to answer them anyway for fun.

 

 

I hope I didn't flunk this test too badly.

I would be interested to hear the correct answers...

 

[/Quote]

 

Your answers are good. I don't know if there is a single "correct" answer. (If you can name it, it is not Tao!) As with most Taoist concepts there are many layers of meaning. The importance of any given interpretation may vary significantly by school.

 

 

 

2) It is said to be "just before our eyes" . Why?

 

Because everything arises from tao and everything is therefore of tao?

 

 

This one has a double meaning referring to a certain stage in the practice. Also, it is related to the "Dao is obtainable in an instant" concept we are discussing over here.

 

 

4) Why say that it should be done at home, not on high mountains?

 

Because everything that is needed for cultivation is already within us?

 

 

Yes. Also has a dual meaning in the Yin Yang Pai. This one is also related to question 9.

 

 

5) Why say that it must be succeeded through dual-cultivation, not solely by the effort of our mind or oneself?

 

Because cultivation of tao requires the dual cultivation of nature and life (xing and ming)?

 

 

Dual cultivation has a dual meaning in certain branches of the Southern School and the Yin Yang Pai.

 

 

6) Why say that those hazards will definitely arise in our practice? Any exceptions?

 

No idea...

[Added later:] Because we are not perfect so we cannot avoid all hazards on our own? Exception might be if one follows exactly as an accomplished teacher directs us?

 

 

I am not certain that a good teacher can prevent them from arising. Instead, the very fact that hazards will arise is why it is so important to have a teacher.

 

 

8) Why make use of the time is crucial? Why say that the flexible Zi time(活子時) is more important than the fixed Zi time ( 11:00pm~1:00am)?

 

Because we need to practice to make progress? Certain times of the day and night are more beneficial for practice; however, it is better to practice when one can manage it than to not practice at all?

 

 

Great observation. One of the biggest obstacles most people face is looking for the ideal time to practice. There is no better time than now... There is also another meaning which relates to one of the specific techniques of the practice.

 

 

 

9) It is said that real hermits live in public, hidden in mass , not deep in deep cave. Why ?

 

Because to cultivate virtue to a high level one must learn to live harmoniously with others and help others where one can? One cannot achieve this in complete isolation?

 

 

I would add that some believe to cultivate in this world requires higher level of virtue (Te). Think about it practically, which is easier? To cultivate when everything is taken care of for you and you have nothing to do but practice. Or to cultivate when you have a wife, family, friends, job and bills to which you must attend? The latter are the "Hidden Dragons."

 

 

11) Why talk about the sun and moon?

 

Because it represents true yang and true yin, or at least yang and yin, which is an important concept in taoist cultivation?

 

 

Also a dual meaning in Yin Yang Pai. Also related to a specific technique in some schools.

tcii, this is about the second point in your earlier post...

 

 

It's not easy to talk about this. Anyway, the formal explanation is the difference between "superior virtue" and "inferior virtue", or between Internal Medicine and External Medicine. (This has fundamentally nothing to do with the difference between Neidan and Waidan.) The External Medicine is obtained through practice, which is a form of "doing" (youwei) and is the way of "inferior virtue". If everything goes well, it leads to the Internal Medicine, which is "non-doing" (wuwei) and is the way of "superior virtue".

 

The External Medicine is obtained, as you say, by "a lot of hard work". The Internal Medicine fundamentally does not need any "work". It is inherently possessed by every human being. Thus, the Internal Medicine can be realized either through the Neidan practice (formally timed as "100 days, 10 months, 9 years"), or in just "one instant".

 

This is, approximately, the explanation given by some Neidan masters, at least by those who talk about it.

 

 

The way you have stated it is somewhat problematic based on my understanding. I would not position "De" (Virtue) and "Yao" (Medicine) as directly related as you seem to imply in your statement... but I am not certain the details of the Yao should be discussed at this time.

However, what we are discussing is the very heart of the Taoist cultivation "Dao" (Way). We spend a good portion of the time on this very topic in our three day introductory Alchemy course and only begin to scratch the surface. I don't know if I can do it justice here:

As I indicated in my earlier post, and undoubtedly you are familiar with this, there are two major lines of Taoist cultivation. The two basic approaches in each of these lines differ. They are called Dao Gong (Cultivating Dao) and Xian Gong (Cultivating Immortality). The "source" of these two approaches is credited to Chapter Three in the Dao De Jing: "The Sage empties the heart and fills the belly."

How do you you Cultivate Dao? Empty the Heart

How do you Cultivate Immortality? Fill the Belly

Which path should those who aspire to perfection choose?

Those of Superior Virtue can go directly to the Dao. They simply empty the heart.

What about those of Inferior Virtue? They have a method as well. They can fill the belly.

So Superior Virtue and Inferior Virtue refer the aspirant's aptitude.

Wu Wei and You Wei refer to the two the major methods (Fa) of cultivation. They are not, as is sometimes thought, related to the amount of "work" required of the cultivator.

What does "Fill the Belly" mean? It refers to 1) Build the foundation 2) Transmute Jing to Qi and 3) Transmute Qi to Shen. The cultivation method here is "You Wei". It involves work, Gong.

What does "Empty the Heart" mean? It refers to Realizing Tao. Because Tao is not something separate from you (if it were it would not be Tao!) all you have to do is realize it and you are done. When you do realize it, it happens instantly! But practically speaking, how do you empty the heart and thereby realize Tao? The masters will tell you it is as easy as dropping a heavy load. But really, who can just do it? Who can really empty their heart in, well, a heartbeat? That is why even those of Superior Virtue have a cultivation method: "Wu Wei"

One of the common misconceptions is that "Do nothing" does not involve work. Unfortunately it does.

Never say this in front of a group of scholars!

 

 

Would they really find that concept offensive?

 

More or less. It's one of the most difficult fields to study. Many scholars are doing an excellent work in this area, either historically or in the present day. I think you should not discount it, even if you are interested in other aspects of Taoism.

I agree with you, the "Taoism is a Religion" group does great work. The fact that some of them consider it a religion in its "numinous" aspects somewhat moderates their otherwise tiresome use of "Daoistic, and proto-Daoist" And, of course, religious Taoism is another "path to the mountain top."

We are enjoying this discussion -- maybe forgetting the ritual traditions of Taoism.

Indeed, ritual is itself one of the subsets of "immortality"cultivation. One of the many "vehicles" to borrow a Buddhist term.

For many scholars, those are "real Taoism".

 

Are you referring to the "Taoism is (first and foremost) a religion" group?

There should be more "academics" here. I cannot and do not represent a large group of people who have quite different views and opinions. I'm just enjoying being here and I am talking for myself.

 

Let me reply only to your first point first.

 

 

Not only I have complete respect for this view, but I share it -- except for one detail.

 

The important thing about the relation between the Daode jing (etc.) and Neidan, is that the Daode jing does not need Neidan, but Neidan needs the Daode jing. The Daode jing is entirely self-contained, and does not require anything outside itself. Its doctrine can be applied, in full or in part, to different fields (replace "fields" by practices, arts, sciences, etc.). Now, a Neidan practitioner could claim that the Daode jing is a Neidan text. But, say, an army general who practices the "art of war" could claim that the Daode jing is about making war.

 

So, would the Daode jing be about Neidan or about war? I would say it is about neither -- but its teachings (and its words) can be applied to an indefinite number of fields. Neidan is one of these fields. (Neidan also needs other supports, but let's leave this aside now.)

 

In other words, the Daode jing contains the most important statement of doctrines that are fundamental in Neidan, but is not "a Neidan text" of its own. Take for example, the famous passage: "The Dao generates the One, the One generates the Two, the Two generate the Three, the Three generate the ten thousand things". Neidan masters of all times have applied these words to the Neidan practice, which goes through those stages in a reverse order for "returning to the Dao". Does this mean that the Daode jing was describing the Neidan practice? I think the answer is obvious.

 

 

 

Good question! I think there is no way to harmonize them. The most fruitful attitude is to accept both of them.

Actually, I agree with you that the DDJ is not a Nei Dan text in the strict sense. This is because I accept the more technical definition of Nei Dan that academics use - and yes, this field could use more of them, especially if they are also practitioners.

It is however possible to view it as an internal cultivation text which describe methods that ultimately produce the same effect as Nei Dan, that is "uniting with the Tao" "perfection" or "immortality". IN this case, the text does indeed stand alone. Although your selected quote would not support this point, many of the other chapters would. For example, Chapters 2, 3, 5 and 6 are thought to provide fairly specific advice on how to cultivate. Some practitioners consider that Chapter 3 "...The sage empties the heart and fills the belly..." is the basis for the two major lines of Taoist internal cultivation.

This, of course, does not preclude the text from being read as applying to all other activities in this world -- "As above, so below." If anything, its application to other areas strengthens its value as a guide to inner cultivation. That is because ordering your life's affairs is one of the major prerequisites for an aspiring practitioner to begin their training.

The point is not to create an argument, but as foundation for this question:

Is there an umbrella concept within academia to look at Taoist cultivation aimed at "uniting with the Tao" in general but recognizing various subsets of this cultivation? Said subsets may consist of methods characterized by historically specific identifiers e.g. Nei Dan.

It seems there are two interesting points here worth continuing to discuss.

1) Differences in perspective between Internal Alchemy practitioners and Western trained specialists the field of Taoist studies (academics) regardingwhat is "Nei Dan." The term "academics" is not intended to be pejorative.

The nature of Western academic training demands that its specialists be as precise and clear as possible. For them, the term "Nei Dan"applies to practices related to a specific historical period, as outlined inone of Fabrizio's earlier posts.

Practitioners are taught that Nei Dan has its origins in themists of Taoist history – dating back to Huang Di and Lao Zi (Huang-Lao). They will tend to refer to texts such as the Dao De Jing, Zhuang Zi and Nei Yeh as early"Internal Alchemy" texts. Why is that? It is because they believe those texts are describing the same thing as the Nei Dan texts, using different language. In other words, to them "A rose by any other name is still a rose."

Is there a way to harmonize these seemingly opposing viewpoints?

In the previous topic (see here) Daode said:

 

It seems that all texts agree that these periods (usually 100 days, 10 months, and 9 years) are purely metaphoric. Some masters, anyway, say that it all happens in "one instant" (yike 一刻).

2) The difference between perspectives of 1) perfection happens in "one instant" and 2) it takes "100 days, 10 months, 9 years" to go through the various stages.

This reminds me of the instant vs. gradual debate in Buddhism, although I have rarely heard Taoist practitioners arguing about it. Many of the Taoist practitioners I have met accept that the moment of realization is "instant" but it takes a lot of hard work "Kung Fu" to get there.

The above quoted numbers are merely a heuristic - that is a general guideline which can vary greatly from person to person depending uponwhere they start and their own aptitude and dedication to the training. The varied practices expounded by the different schools of Nei Dan may also result in somewhat different models of progression in their training.