tccii

Thanks for the clarification tccii. My translation process is still very very slow. Any idea when those prefaces were written or by whom?

 

thanks

They are attributed to various Nei Dan luminaries such as the patriarchs of the Bei Pai and others. This is obviously problematic from a historical standpoint. Issues related to dating are best addressed by those with specialized training in the area of textual analysis. Understanding the historical and textual tradition of a classic is one reason the work of scholars in this area is important. It would be great to see a new, critical translation of this classic by someone like Fabrizio Pregadio or one of his peers in the Taoist Studies field.

For those who are interested, Pregadio comments on the important of both scholarly and practitioner based approaches to understanding these traditions in an interview we did with him. Here is an earlier post on this forum with excerpts and comments:

http://thetaobums.co...rizio +pregadio

Thank a lot tccii.

 

The first link has about 7 chapters before the main chapters start. Is the 360doc.com link the "trucated version" which Cleary says Wilhelm translated? Do you know of any historical reasons why the first link has these 7 additional chapters?

 

thanks again.

 

 

Happy Christmas all

They both have 13 chapters. The first link has a series of prefaces.

IIRC the Wilhelm translation was not done form a "truncated" text. I believe he states somewhere in his book that he dropped the last few chapters since he thought them redundant.

Could anybody point me towards an online Chinese version of Secret of the Golden flower, please?

http://www.jnk.org.tw/wn01-3-02.htm

http://www.360doc.com/content/10/0220/19/396690_16269439.shtml

What do you think of this?

...

Source: http://internalart.t...immortality.htm

I'm not sure if it is very accurate, especially the time.

The first stage in the above quoted 4 stage model is usually called "Building the Foundation" The last stage in this model is usually divided into two stages: "Refine Shen to Void" and "Shatter Void to Return to Dao." The last two stages are identified separately in the original post in this thread, but that post omits the first stage.

The confusion arises because there are several different stage models (3, 4, 5, or instantaneous) used by different teachers. In effect all of them can be correct. However, we find most Western people appreciate a bit more detail. Such as this five stage model

Xian Gong

1) Build the Foundation

2) Transmute Jing to Qi

3) Transmute Qi to Shen

Dao Gong

4) Refine Shen to Void

5) Shatter the Void to Realize the Tao

Likewise the times given are also estimates. It is hard to comment on them directly as it depends on the system being used and the individual student's starting condition and practice discipline. Usually you see the first stage, "Building the Foundation" described as lasting from 100 days to 2 years, depending on the condition of the individual when they start. This can vary by school, so it is normal to see differences in the listed times.

All of these descriptions are merely heuristics, that is, models to help intellectually understand the process. At the end of the day all that matters is personal progress in cultivation.

Hi Joeblast,

Thank you for taking the time to provide your feedback. We understand your concerns. Here are a few points to clarify:

We are offering this paper for free as part of our organization's service to the community. We prefer people not download it if they are not interested in the subject.

We use a professional email service (Emma) to handle the distribution. You may unsubscribe at any time. The unsubscribe link is in the same email with the file download link.

Best regards,

TCCII

This paper was originally written for our students. We thought it might benefit the Taijiquan, Qigong, Kung Fu and Nei Dan community so we are sharing it as a free PDF download.

The Science of Qi Healing

A Survey of the Research and Benefits of

Tai Chi and Qigong Practices

by Ted Nawalinski, Sc.D.

Available as a PDF, free download

Thanks for the reply.

 

I'm going to be honest I didn't quite see the anti-Taoist themes in the story.

 

When I read it I can tell the author considers Buddhism to be superior to Taoism. However, I'm always left feeling that the author has a great deal of respect for Taoism and the Taoist pantheon.

 

Perhaps, I'm just missing something.

 

 

Thanks again,

Josh Skinner

The story is not really ant-Taoist, but if you read the entire 100 chapter narrative it is easy to see how you could interpret it as ant-Taoist. Many of the villains are disguised as Quanzhen Taoist priests. The story is considered an allegory of the Nei Dan cultivation process. It is believed to be loosely based on the Qi Chu Ji's journey to the West to meet Genghis Khan. The semi-Buddhist theme in the work is more a reflection of the popularity of Buddhism at the time it was written.

At the end of the story Monkey gained full enlightenment which makes him equivalent of Buddha and Lao Zi, so if you like the concept, then go with it. Unless you aspire to be an orthodox Daoist priest (who might favor Xuan Wu or the Three Primordial Ones, as pointed out earlier) then don't worry about it.

What you put on your walls is a personal preference. At the end of the day, it is your own practice and attainment that matters.

I have one final question and I would like you guys to please answer it straightforwardly without using metaphors or symbols. I would like to know and I am sure that many new Taoists would like to know, that what is the first step or practice for he beginner. Remember I am going along only with what Liu says in all his text about not using any physical methods or techniques. If you have read Liu I-ming's text and you follow it diligently with a single mind, then please share what you have to say to my question. Thanks

That is an interesting question but your criteria make it nearly impossible for someone to answer. The way you ask it is close enough to a Taoist riddle that I'll take a shot.

Essentially I read that you are asking how to begin your practice using only a textual lineage. You want to know what to do in order to start except that you don't want to "use physical methods or techniques." I assume you mean you don't want a form or something similar. It is important to remember that just sitting on a cushion and doing nothing is still doing something. That is, your a*s is still PHYSICALLY sitting (a technique) on something and you are DOING nothing (a method).

That said, try it anyway: Just sit. Empty your heart (Xin, Heart-Mind). If you can do that, you are on on your way to practicing Dao Gong. If this practice comes easy to you, that is fantastic, you are one of the very few people who can start there.

If it is difficult, then you might need another beginning practice.

Good luck!

... with one exception; the book did materialize and stayed in one family - this is what I teach, simply called Taoist Medicine.

 

Ya Mu, Very interesting. You one of the first westerners I have come across of who knows this. One of my Nei Dan teachers, who also claims to have had the privilege of actually studying the book, mentioned the same thing.

Taomeow, you are unbelievably patient. There is something to be learned from that.

Effilang,

As you probably already know, it is much easier and safer to learn internal alchemy from a teacher. However, if you are using the TY book, you'll need to very carefully study it. If I recall correctly, Mr. Lu translated the two fires you mention as fast and slow. He has a glossary and a pretty good index, so that should help.

Good luck!

I have some question to consider.

The Flying Star System use a relation of ones birth year and the birth year of the building.

 

1.What if the birth year of the building is wrong (happens)?

If it is wrong. How one can find the birth year by judging quality of the enviroment,

where to look at?

2.The Buildings birth year is lost (because of war or other castrophe lost documents?)

3.Can the Building be changed so that it takes an other birth year?

 

Thanks,

Q

Friend,

Your questions are fine. It is the random comments made by a few which makes those who actually might have lineage training in these areas reluctant to answer on a public forum.

Since you seem sincere, I'll make a brief reply.

In our Xuan Kong lineage (and there are different schools of Xuan Kong) the birth year of the person is less important than the reading on the house.

1) If the birth year of the house is wrong your reading may be wrong, depending on how far off you are. That is because the birth year determines the period of the house. These periods have 20 year bands and the exact year is most important near the change in periods.

2) If you don't know the period of the house exactly, but have a general idea, then you may be able to determine it by analysis. The methods require a bit of detective work and "reverse engineering." A certain amount of judgement and intuition is required.

3) The birth year is the birth year (just like your birth date), but the period of the house can be changed, at least in our lineage there are methods to do this. It often involves significant renovations and construction. It is usually easier to have the person move. At least where an ordinary house is concerned.

Terminology varies between schools, but Pure Yang, in the sense of Pure Yang Qi, is used to distinguish Pre-Heaven Qi from ordinary Post -Heaven Yang Qi. In other words, Pure Yang is often synonymous with Primoridal Qi, Original Qi, or Pre-Heaven Qi. Since Pre-heaven Qi exists prior to differentiation between Yin and Yang, "Pure Yang Qi" is not Yang except in the sense that it is contrasted with Post-Heaven Qi.

Or, as one of our teachers, Master Li, told us, "Don't worry about it, just practice."

Hi FGS,

In our interview with him, Fabrizio mentioned he was working on translating some of Liu's material. Let's encourage him to publish it soon. Cleary was one of the first people to make available in translation many important works, but he (to use a Chinese saying) "eats a lot of the meaning." I am really looking forward to Fabrizio's treatment of the material.

The link has sent me the newsletter of TCCII but not the actual book, looking forward to see what it is.

That is because the link is to a free download of our whitepaper "Interpreting the Ancient Codes." It is short collection consisting of an interview, review and essay related to the Can Tong Qi and the importance of a sound translation.

Fabrizio Pregadio's translation of the Can Tong Qi is cited within the paper. If you prefer not to download the paper you can find the book listed on his website.

If you are interested in serious academic research on the subject of the Can Tong Qi, then you might want to also consider getting the recently published Volume 2, which includes a comprehensive bibliographical study of the ancient text. The work that went into it is simply incredible.

Chen village, formally thirteenth generation through Chen Zhenglei. I've never heard that Tongbei Quan was an influence, could you tell me more?

I can tell you what my teacher, Chen Quanzhong, told me about it. Tongbei contributed not only the concept of "power through the back" but also some of the movements and drills. One example from the form is Shan Tong Bei (Flash the Back). A second example, the Chen spear form, may represent a later round of borrowing. When the staff form was lost, Chen family borrowed the Tong Bei staff work to create the current Pear Flower/White Ape Spear form.

Some of the stranger looking drills in Chen Tai Chi (and other internal arts) are for developing this type of power through the back.

"Through the back" sounds right -- in any internal MA nothing is initiated from the arms ("there's no arms in taiji!") and there's many moves in taiji where transmission through the back is rather obvious too (e.g. the Single Whip). In Chen Laojia, we use the middle finger (i.e. the Pericardium meridian, internally speaking) to guide the form, the little finger to sweep qi in, the thumb to sweep it outward, but just like it's not the steering wheel that moves the car, it's not the hands/arms that move taiji et al. This is not understood by people who watch but don't practice... hence one hears a whole lot of nonsense when folks watch this or that video and then pass a verdict ("real/fake," "powerful/weak," "you can't use this in a real fight," "it's fast and aggressive so it's external" and on and on.) Of course those who have practiced for a short while (or incorrectly from the start) can't see what's really going on when they see a body that seems to be flailing the arms when in fact "there's no arms."

As you may know, Tongbei Quan is one of the arts which influenced Chen Tai Chi Chuan.

Which line of Chen Laojia do you practice?

I'm interested in this too. The instrument itself looks like it carries the indications of how to do it engraved on it as well as descriptions of time/space coordinates in symbolic terms- which as far as I know, regular compasses don't have and of you think about it, well, wow! I understand the luopan is also set up so that 'South' is at the top?

 

What should one look for when buying one?

 

Chi D are you referring to calculations for deviation from true north?

K,

Yes, the arrow of the Lou Pan needle points South.

There is no easy answer for how to buy a Lou Pan. Generally your teacher will give it to you. Since there are several variations on them, your teacher will tell you which type to buy. However, when buying one, you should check the quality of the craftsmanship carefully since they are made in China! Also, if you have a known good compass, check the Lou Pan against it before you buy it.

CD,

The difference between variation and error is actually an important one, and your definition is not one I learned in engineering school. In the case of compasses, error is what you get when you have interference with your reading, such as from large amounts of metal in the environment. In the example that I gave earlier the error was a staggering 10 degrees!

The difference in true north and magnetic north is called declination. Declination is printed on most navigational maps. The easy way to calculate true north is simply to add or subtract the declination. You can easily look up the procedure for this online. Lacking an official declination number for your area (or supposing you live a few hundred years ago) you could calculate it from the North Star or the arc of the sun. Again, I am certain someone has posted the procedure online.

This instrument is only using an ordinary compass. It can only detect the "magnetic north". How do you compensate for the magnetic field error to find the "true north"....??? I know there is a way, but I would like to hear it from you.

It would be more accurate to characterize the difference between the magnetic north and true north as a variation depending on time and space, and not as an "error." There are many ways to find true north. You don't even need a compass, but it is easier with one. These methods are not secret and are well known in the west.

We use magnetic north.

Agreed, this is one of the better discussions of the subject. There is not much to add to what has already been said, except perhaps for sharing an example of the problems with getting an accurate compass reading.

As has been mentioned, magnetic fields can throw off the accuracy of the compass reading. Major sources of interference during the reading are metal in the door frames, walls (including wires) and floors. We had this problem earlier in the week while performing an analysis for a client who just bought a new apartment. Due to the layout, the apartment had an usually high concentration of metal near the entrance. In addition, not only was the door frame metal, but the door was metal and the walls had commercial metal framing instead of the wood generally used in houses. The floors were reinforced concrete. This case required dozens of reading from various distances to find a place sufficiently free of interference. It took a long time, much to the owner's surprise, but it is worth the effort to get an accurate reading.

We found a video interview of one of our Taoist priest friends talking about Turtle Breathing from our recent trip to China. His explanation is in response to a question about the 4th movement of the Eight Brocades. (Note that if you understand the principle of the breathing as described in the classical texts then you can add it to many practices. For example, there is a specific practice called Turtle Breathing in the southern school (Nan Pai) which includes a Dao Yin.)

In the video, Master Wang also discusses the Wudang origin legend of the Yin Yang symbol. My colleague is the interpreter.

http://www.youtube.c...=1&feature=plcp

Edit: I couldn't figure out how to embed the video, so if someone can point me in the right direction I would appreciate it.

the mentionings of the 8 extraordinary...the notion of the yin heel vessel being some sort of fulcrum utilized by ren & du...

 

 

although, I am curious of the origin of the note on pg 31, note 38;

"turtle" equivalence to breathing through the heels. clearing the ren. I sort of equate that to the elimination of turbulence in breath where more subtleties can be perceived. I was just curious if there was a more solid connection perhaps or if it is inference.

Hi Joeblast,

Thank you for sharing. Are you talking about the Can Tong Qi or Wang Mu's Foundations of Internal Alchemy? Your reference sounds like Foundations, but your citation matches neither of the books. If I had to guess you are referring to pages 27-34 of Foundations, specifically note 38 on page 30. Is that correct? If so then I agree that is one of the more interesting and useful passages for Nei Dan practitioners.

Fabrizio is in the best position to address the origins of the footnotes since he is the translator.

Already found a few gems in here oooh! puzzle pieces!!!

 

Hi Joeblast,

It's great to hear your found something of interest. Would you care to share any of those with us? It is always interesting to find out what resonates with people!

I'm curious -- did you ask Fabrizio if he is a practicing Daoist? And if so, any details?

 

Mark

Hi Mark,

Thank you for the comment. Yes, we did discuss this point "off the record." We agreed to leave it "off the record" in order to avoid introducing unnecessary bias into the reader's mind based upon this information.

In my opinion, which I mention in the paper, one of the great strengths of Fabrizio's work is that he translates faithfully and with great care while generally avoiding sectarian viewpoints. This provides the reader with the key tools to understand the work in its historical context and also at the level of "Dao." With this information it is rather easy (well I should say easier, because it is not easy!) for a practitioner to relate it to his or her particular lineage. I give a brief example in the paper of how one might read a single passage from the viewpoint of a few traditions. Even that example is far from exhaustive. As you can imagine, interpreting the entire work from the viewpoint of even one lineage would result in a book at least as long as the present volume.