LBDaoist

It seems more Buddhist to me. What do you think? Since you said it is not Taoist, what about it goes against Taoism?

I tried to quote both of you, but got one. Anyway. From what I've read and what makes sense to me in my own practice, I am developing an inner child. A "qi baby" as I have heard it referred to. Through relaxation, meditation and clearing the mind, it becomes possible to tune into the rhythm of the body... the subtle little ticks and muscle spasms, the qi flowing through the body. With conscious effort on breathing, those ticks and spasms can be smoothed out and calmed. With enough repetition and enough focus devoted to the practice, the energy begins to come together in the dan tian (or where ever one lets the mind linger). Leaving the body seems to be a stage. I truly believe that attempting to do anything during the practice, or reaching for phenomena, leads us down the wrong path. The phenomena come on their own, they are simply byproducts of the process. Having said that, I should clarify that such things are not necessarily bad. The striving for them and wanting them is bad. If the practice has reached the level where they happen, and a person finds themselves inclined to do them, then by all means explore. The time that I left my body, I was allowing the qi to flow and simply watching it. Rather than focusing on small cycle, or focusing on breathing or my posture or anything... I was simply letting go. It seems to be a widely held belief that our spirits are simply borrowing our bodies, and once the body stops functioning, the spirit will continue to exist.

I was wondering when I got lost and moved to China. Now it makes sense. Funny how the mind can run things together.

Healing with Whole Foods by Paul Pitchford.

It is interesting to me that sex has been mentioned in the context of OBEs. At a previous point in my life I spent a lot of time roleplaying out fantasy sex scenes online. I had a few of my partners tell me that roleplaying with me was unlike playing with other people. One of them said that there was a sense of physical presence there, as if it were real. The online forum in a way became a conduit for shared hallucination, a medium through which two minds could become synchronized in fantasy. It seems as if sexual energy is very powerful. My suspicion is that it has something to do with it being the basis of creation.

At one point in my life I wanted to move up into the mountains and open a temple. I had only been training with my sifu for a couple of years, and I was under the impression that being a sifu is an easy gig. My perception was that I would get paid to train all the time. How sweet would that be? I was introduced to the translations of Thomas Cleary, and there were some truly profound words from some older Taoists and Buddhists in there. I wish that I could relate them to you, as they were related to me because they had a profound impact upon my thinking. Since I cannot, I can only give you the insight that they opened up for me. I realized that I was running away. I realized that I was making things overly complicated. I did not need to leave civilization and head into the mountains to seek enlightenment. Enlightenment exists in this moment... and this moment... and this one too... and the one after that... it was back there in those other ones, and it is in this one too. It happens everywhere, at every time, any time and sometimes not at all even where it once was before. The mind exists inconsistently, yet we can introduce consistency to it. However often times in our search and quest for our own ideas of consistence, we setup barriers and stray from the path. Everything that you have spoken of, your land and shelter are good things and worthy of accomplishing. Yet once you get all of those, how will you be any different from who you are now? Will you think different thoughts or act in different ways? Must you have them before you can act differently? Do you even need to act differently? One of the things that amazed me about practicing qigong and tai chi when I first started, is how effective the practices were. I was at a very dark place in my life (and I've realized that the OBE I had might have been positive, and perhaps it was the universe pulling me away from that place... introducing my mind to the possibility that I could leave it)... and despite being in that dark place, and despite having many bad habits that were destructive to my well being, when I set aside the time to meditate and to practice, I felt better. Small periods of time, fifteen to thirty minutes a day made a world of difference. Those short periods of time, repeated with consistency over long periods of time proved to be a turning point in my life. I still want a temple, yet my intentions are different. Rather than seeking a free ride, I realize that the purpose of the practice has a strong component of helping others. I realize that although the mountains are ideal, I do not need to be there. I met my sifu less than a mile from the ocean, and he has been there for 35 years. I encourage you to continue on your path to your land. It sounds like a powerful motivator. I am curious to learn what you will do when you get there, that you are unable to do now.

I am not so sure that Ming's books need revision, so much as my own mental imaginations of what I was reading were not right. In my situation I started reading books on qigong in search for answers to what I considered to be health problems... a sense of dis-ease within myself. That intention that I took into the books with my colored my perceptions of what I read.

I get it. You haven't found a teacher yet. The way can only be truly passed on from teacher to student, master to disciple. Books and words can point at it. The only terms I can describe it in are like energy transfer. The mind might be able to catch glimpses of it in text, but it very well might not ever solidify. It requires physical practice, and the presence of a true teacher. I started practicing because I wanted to clear my mind. I wanted clear thoughts. I wanted to be calm and peaceful. For me, the end goal is clarity. Beyond that, it is compassion, and helping others reach that same place, that same state of mind. Clarity and connectedness with themselves, and from there the natural realization that we are all connected with something larger than ourselves. There are many paths. Simplicity seems to be a very powerful one. Ever eternal simplification. The casting off of that which we do not need. Clearing the mind of obsessions and ruminations. Clearing the mind of worry and concern. The mind tells you exactly what the goal is at every moment of every day. There is something on the mind of every person who read these words. These words might obscure it, or perhaps they point to it. That which becomes obscured, or that which is pointed to are not the mind. They are simply impressions upon it, tricks played by it.

I have only had one experience that I would consider an OBE. It happened while I was perfectly conscious. I had only recently begun training. It was at a point in my life where I was following Dr. Ming's recommendations to meditate while focused on a piece of burning incense. During that time I had also begun to focus on the huiyun cavity and the motions of it while breathing and meditating. I was meditating and had been meditating with my eyes closed for probably fifteen to thirty minutes. I could really feel the deep breathing. On the inhales I was drawing in and on the exhales I was projecting a bubble around myself. Then with one breath, I felt myself yanked skyward to the point where I was probably a good couple thousand feet above the house and I could look down on the city. With the next breath I was literally being pulled rapidly away from the planet and into space. It was scary. I had the thought that I had better open my eyes RIGHT NOW before I was unable to get back. I did so and popped back into my body. Based on that experience, and having read what others have said about negative energies and being cautious about OBEs, I would echo that advice. There seem to be forces out there that want our spirit.

I want to start by saying that I respect where I think you are coming from. In your experience you have perceived many false teachers who seem to waste people's time with ineffective practice. Therefore you want to see the end result before you start any particular practice. When I read what you wrote, I was put in mind of breaking boards. When I started training kung fu, I never considered that I could break a board. Yet when the time came, I was able to do so with ease. The ability came as a result of the training. It was not the purpose of the training. When you mention various accomplishments by various teachers, have you considered that their accomplishments are simply milestones along a path to a much higher place? Have you purified your intent? Are you truly interested in the path, or are you simply following and trying to reproduce the byproducts of the path that you have seen performed by others? One of my favorite Daoist sayings is, "If I only meet three people today, one of them can be my teacher." Have you perhaps considered that lessons are being offered to you each and every day; lessons are being offered to you by those you might consider yourself least inclined to learn from?

Your post puts me in mind of what I have read of Thomas Cleary's translations. I found his translations of Zen Buddhism Volumes 1 and 2 to be very insightful with regards to enlightenment. There are quite a few sections of the books that deal with the ideas of false paths and wrong teachings. There are many passages that speak to seeking enlightenment, and the wrong ways of doing it. One of my favorite metaphors from the book is "Riding a donkey in search of a donkey." What are your thoughts on enlightenment? At what point does a person become enlightened? What about the numerous paths and practices that you mentioned fail to guide a person to that point?

I caution you to be VERY careful. I thought that I knew what I was doing and messed myself up pretty good with some accuPRESSURE (deep massage). The scary thing is that it took about a decade for me to realize the extent of the damage that I did. Perhaps you might set your ego aside and get some instruction from trained professionals? When it comes to energy work and the meridians, it seems prudent to err on the side of caution. Also with energic work, since it is such a sensory and personal experience, reading about it and experiencing it are often different. I thought that I knew a lot from reading Dr. Ming's books and qi-gong and kung fu. After training with my sifu, I found that about 85% of what I thought I knew was wrong. Thinking that I knew what I was doing actually got in the way.

In my experience the qigong helps me become attuned to the qi flow, both internal and external. I study a modified form of wing chun. Wing chun, especially the trapping and "touching hands" really relies on sensitivity. The heightened awareness makes for better sensitivity. It is hard to explain, and even what I explain you might not comprehend due to my lack of ability to properly describe it. When you practice both the questions that you ask will be answered through the practice. There are so many different ways that they mesh with each other. For example, at the temple we train hung gar. Specifically there both the six and thirty-six dynamic tensions. A background in qigong compliments those dynamic tension exercises because the mind already has an awareness of moving qi to the extremities. Another example is stance training and the correlating qigong practice of breathing through the feet.

Get rid of all of your goals. Just pay attention to the breath. Begin with allowing your mind to become aware of your breath. Forget about controlling the breath. Let the breath control you. Let your body be as it will be. Just breath for 10 to 15 minutes at a time, once or twice a day for a month.

My experience meshes with this assertion. I have found that qigong helps maintain the more strenuous activities like kung fu training for longer periods of time. By longer I mean both in any given session, and also in terms of the number of consecutive days. The hard and the soft really do compliment each other. The hard kung fu training builds muscle tone and "energy strength" for lack of a better word. Perhaps jin is the term I am looking for?

Vsaluki, I consider things along these lines. Creation and destruction are equal in the universe. Both happen, and neither contains inherent good or evil. Good and evil are concepts of people, and therefore come about by the actions of people. I have begun to pay attention to what seems to be me to be a truth. The truth seems to be that actions which are ego driven are inherently evil. When a person considers themself to the exclusion of others, the odds are very good at their actions will in some way cause harm to others. Conversely if a person considers others and acts in a way that serves to benefit people as a whole, their actions will be inherently "good". Beyond that there truly seem to be the forces of creation and destruction. In relation to those, like seems to attract like. When a person begins to do things that create or nourish life, they will tend to attract that energy. A few things along those lines are gardening, eating well, cultivating qi and the like. Conversely, if a person strays toward destroying life... alcohol and drug abuse, violent behavior, etc.. they will find themselves on a downward spiral. In many ways the mind seems like a magnent. Whatever lingers in the mind seems to draw more of it.

I've read that it is very important to avoid being startled while meditating. You might considering finding a place that you feel safer before trying to reach the deeper states.

Having grown up in the Western world my original exposure to Good and Evil were God and Satan. I never really bought into the idea of certain actions leading one to a place called Heaven after death, or its opposite Hell. It was not until I started actively studying Taoism and focusing on my own spiritual development did I come to truly believe in good and evil. In my mind they are two energies that emerge through thoughts and actions. They are ever present and constantly in ebb. As a person leans further toward one they will have the opposite drawn to them. As a simple and perhaps even misguided interpretation, at the "higher levels" of cultivation, one perhaps cannot progress further without "defeating or overcoming" ever stronger manifestations of the opposite force. I believe that good and evil arise because of the human conscious. There are those actions which preserve and enhance life, and there are those that lessen and destroy life. In the animal kingdom, the mechanisms of life and death are in natural balance. Animals act from instinct and balance each other out. Humans have the fairly unique capacity to contemplate before acting. Because of that, they have the potential to take good or evil actions. I find it to be no surprise that one of the most touted achievements of Taoist (and Buddhist) practice involves no mind, and action without thought; being like animals, responsive to the ebb and flow of the natural cycle free from the ruminations, compulsions and schemes of the mind. Eating when hungry, sleeping when tired, singing when the spirit moves you, caring for your offspring, protecting your loved ones.

...And Japanese Jujitsu (I've been told) was derived from Hung Gar (predominantly). I think that before the thread devolves into the inevitable THIS art versus THAT art and my sifu can kick your master's butt discussions, we should just drop it. The original question was why high level CMA practitioners never show up in the cage. That has been answered.

You've described my own experience to a T. A sexual compulsion comes from the same place and carries the same energy as any other compulsion. Compulsions are a distraction and scatter the mind. A scattered mind leads to scattered qi. I believe that sex can be an energy neutral event. There are tales of Taoist sexual practices, double/dual cultivation and the like. Women are often referred to as yin and man and yang. The two can exchange and balance each other. Having said that, excessive anything leads to disaster and ruination. Free sex with everyone in the content of a relationship can often lead to problems. Relationships often include other dynamics like children and the establishment of a home. Any acts that destroy the trust of the foundation upon which home and family are built should be ignored, and allowed to vanish from the mind. It all comes down to what a person wants from life. I believe that compassion and respect are important. So long as we all treat each other with compassion and respect, with the intent of encouraging each other to be the best that we can be, then there will be positive outcomes from our interactions. To loop back around and address the original question, ANYTHING can degenerate your chi. Even a perfect practitioner of Taoist arts will not be able to escape the ebb and flow of nature. There are high points and low points, just as summer and winter exist. Acts that are okay at one time may be harmful at others. Stripping off all of your clothes and jumping into the river at the height of the summer heat is probably a good thing. Doing the same at the apex of a winter blizzard probably isn't. Pursing sex (or anything) to the point where the mind obsesses over it probably isn't a great idea. Being receptive to it and engaging it when the opportunity presents itself probably isn't so bad. As far as I've been able to tell, to walk the path carries one ever closer to the mechanisms of life and death. Sex is one of those mechanisms.

Chinese martial arts are the product of over a thousand years of life and death combat. MMA is a SPORT. I have only been in two fights my entire life, and none since I started training martial arts. Every single fight I have been in, and every fight I have seen all share one thing in common. They are a melee. There are multiple opponents. Most people are only aggressive enough to fight someone else if they have people there to back them up. Even the most out of control drunk and high people are usually aggressive in some sort of public place like a bar or a club, or out on the street with a group of people. The idea of going to the ground and "staying there for the duration" might seem like a good idea in the cage. The reality of street fights seems to be that people will rarely if ever have the luxury of being able to focus entirely on a single opponent. Combat truly is an unpleasant subject. That it has become a "sport" and "entertainment" in our culture makes me sad.

I share this inclination. The American dominance of world affairs has begun to unravel at an accelerated pace. We have been projecting our force out and dominating the rest of the world for far too long. As the I-Ching advises, change is inevitable. Even the strongest storm cannot maintain its fury forever. As the rest of the world advances and develops their own technology and culture, they do not need to rely on us. The rest of the world now looks to America, and wonders what America offers to the world. A powerful military? A corrupt finacial system? Genetically modified plants and animals? "Medicine" and drugs? How many of those do the rest of the world really NEED? Look at what our economy has been built up around. As a whole, we do not offer much to other countries. Change is in the air. The painful kind. As a society we are being forced to do some navel gazing. I think we are long over due for it.

There are a couple of things to consider about traditional Chinese martial arts and why they are not represented in MMA. I will break them into two categories. The physical aspects of Chinese arts, and the spiritual aspects of Chinese arts. Focusing purely on the physical aspect of Chinese martial arts, one quickly comes to the realization that the arts are trained with the intent of doing the maximum amount of damage in the least amount of time. I can only use my own experience with the art passed on to my by my sifu. The kung fu side of it is primarily Wing Chun, with elements of Northern Shao-Lin and Hung Gar. We focus heavily on the Wing Chun center-line principles, and also low kicks to the knees. The art is a self defense art. It is trained with the intent that you only use it if you do not have any other choices. If you have to use it, you have zero remorse and you do what you have to do to protect yourself in a life threatening situation. So Chinese martial arts are to be used in life and death situations. MMA is a sport. Because it is a sport, a lot of the fundamental aspects of the art are not allowed. You can't gouge the eyes. You can't strike the throat / arteries. Most arts I know of focus on hand conditioning. The fist should be like a solid rock. MMA has padded gloves. MMA is structured to allow the competitors to keep competing. Chinese martial arts are derived from a long lineage of people who had to defend their villages against bandits. Two different philosophies. The second aspect comes to the spiritual side of Chinese martial arts. The arts themselves (I'm generalizing here because I only have 8 years of experience with the style I study) are like a boat. They are a boat to carry the practitioner across the sea of weakness to arrive at the far shore of physical health and well being. They are a tool that embody the principles of the way, and are a great way to cultivate qi and train jin. I firmly believe based on what I have read of Daoist and Buddhist philosophy, the martial arts are a path to enlightenment. They are the boat that the Daoists speak of, to be discarded after they have served their purpose. Given that philosophy, "high level" Chinese martial artists are not going to put their bodies in harms way unnecessarily. They have shed the ego that would drive them to compete. They have given up the need to be better than other people. A high level martial artist is a sought after individual and they can easily make money passing on their knowledge, without all of the risks associated with stepping into a cage.

I find the conclusion dubious as well. It is impossible to be alive and not have qi. Qi is life force. Without a person will not be alive. Now if the guy were to have said, "Without still meditation practice, the qi will have a difficult time condensing." I would agree with him. But to make a blanket statement like, "EVERY yogi I've meet has no qi." shows a profound misunderstanding of qi.

One of the most important lessons that I continue to dwell upon when I practice qigong has been that "where the mind goes, qi flows". An adjunct to that is that the mind cannot force qi movement, but it can guide it. With that in mind, it seems very important to engage an active imagination (based upon proper principles) when practicing qigong. For me a very helpful image has been that of a tree. While practicing qigong (and also tai chi, bagua and kung fu stance training), it has been helpful to imagine roots growing from the bottom of my feet into the ground. When I inhale, I draw energy up through the roots. When I exhale, I project energy out through the palms. Small cycle training is a very important part of qigong training. For most of us here in the Western world who spend long periods sitting down, the lower cavity is the most difficult to open. Physical motions like qigong help the muscles become stronger and more flexible. I saw the mention of meditation versus qigong. I think it really depends on where one is in their practice. In the beginning, in the middle, and even at the end, the motions are important. Until a person practices breathing exercises and studies under another who has developed their own qi flow, all of the meditation in the world will do them no good because their mind has not yet become aware of what qi flow is. (Generally... I'm sure there are those one person in a million people who manage to intuit it on their own. For the rest of us, there are well trodden paths that we can follow, and masters who understand that a key tenant of the practice is to help others). I fully believe in the possibility of circulating qi with nothing more than breathing and the mind, as done while meditating. However it seems highly unlikely that a person can begin their training at that stage. Therefore the motions are very key. The motions need to be rooted in sound principle. The purpose of qigong is to circulate the qi. The qi can be lead by the mind. A good understanding of the meridians will help with the imagination. Lacking that, the simple practice of breathing in through the feet and exhaling through the palms will help.