onelove

The reason why many have spoken of Kunlun as spiritual crack here is because of the way they treat it. For instance if you have the coca plant, and take it in a traditional way, it can give you positive effects. But if you make it into cocaine it can start to get dangerous. If you then do crazy wannabe chemist shit to it, then it becomes very damaging! A problem is that many starting out are already wannabe chemists, or they are already trying to make Kunlun into something it's not by their desires and also what they bring to it. So the coca example can be the same with this spiritual practice...

Take spiritual energy practice (YiGong) and add (al)chemist shit to it (Red Phoenix) and you have Kunlun

BTW I don't mean to say RP is shit, or that Kunlun is shit, I'm just flowing with the analogy here to make the point that the analogy isn't entirely appropos

To improve the "self" all that is needed is yourself...

+1

Hello Otis,

 

I think many people have had the same experience and drawn different conclusions... so maybe you have. I would love to hear your conclusions, if you care to share them.

 

Aaron

In my cultivation I have come to look at consciousness and awareness as 2 different things - consciousness being the many layers of the mind, our perception, the subconscious, while awareness is simply the state of being that exists beyond consciousness. My teacher asks her students to explore this awareness beyond consciousness, primarily through meditation and sleep/dream yoga. This has been a most fruitful practice for me and I think I have had tastes of the experience you describe Aaron. Of course in trying to describe my own experience in awareness I need to recruit my conscious mind, and the experience is immediately lost or at least altered my my own filters and lenses and limitations of language. And once expressed it is again altered by the lenses and filters of those receiving my words. Perhaps this is part of why the Dao that can be spoken is not the true Dao.

This concept was well articulated by Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj in the book "I Am That" - that book provided the missing link for me in my development, and helped me put so many of the classics texts of Buddhism and Daoism in to perspective, as well as the often seemingly contradictory teachings/methods of the masters I have had the fortune of studying with.

No problem Audio. But i would suggest that if you want to see which one resonates best with you, then run them separately for a period of time. Otherwise one may color the experience of the other. Then you won't be getting an acurate representation of either of them. Just my humble opinion.

Good advice.

I'd also add that once you choose which of these excellent energy practices suits you you also seek out a practice to ground the mind in the body and get to the root why you have trouble sitting comfortably. Standing meditation (under the guidance of a skilled teacher), along with good diet and sleep will work wonders to this effect. Max and Jenny have both spoken very highly of the benefits of a standing practice to aid in the energy practices. And really standing meditation/wuji qigong is a pretty powerful energy practice in and of itself if done correctly.

The way it's taught is right over left so i don't think you should change that.

Has Max or Jenny told you that you can practise with left over right as well?

It's taught both ways by Max and Kan (as recently as a year ago). Jenny generally teaches right over left but has encouraged students to try either way as well, she says it doesn't matter. Good posture, relaxation, and awareness matter much more in her system. When she teaches she often adds the following refinement to the foot position, which I found helpful when I do the spontaneous practice: Start with shins/thighs at 90 deg angles, raise to the very tippy-top of toes, pull toes in two inches closer to chair, then lower feet tot he balls of the feet. For me this helps flatten the lower back/tilt pelvis back slightly, fill back of dan tian, and open up spine as same in wuji qigong/standing meditation.

Thanks for the reply guys.

 

The most I can handle is 20 minutes before my right shoulder gets too sore. I have no idea how you guys manage to keep your right shoulder raised at a 90degree angle for an hour straight.

 

The most I get out of the practice is a feeling of peace and relaxation... especially during the closing posture. Mostly because I don't have to keep my arm raised anymore!

 

If I put my right arm down... wouldn't it no longer work? Its very frustratring.

You can practice with left over right as well...but if you are feeling discomfort I think you need to check in with your posture and then relax and let go of your thinking mind.

Addiction is a SPIRITUAL disease; one must first heal the spirit before a full healing of the body and mind can be possible. Ego is the root of addiction; selfishness over selflessness, yet overall it is so infinitely more complex than words could possibly describe...

Thank You for the incredibly honest and insightful post

Standing too long when you're not ready does not help you. If you carry tension, you will carry even more tension. Relaxed standing for 2 minutes it better than standing for 20 minutes with tension.

 

Sorry for the long post, but just something I wanted to share.

Prince makes a good point here about tension.

However my teachers (who are pretty old school, if you will) advocate for longer standing practice, with constant active focus of the mind on the body, scanning for tension, checking for posture, feeling for energy flow (without trying to direct energy flow, at least at the early stages of development). Personally I have found this route to be very rewarding, training the mind and very quickly moving though tension and blockages.

But if your mind is not strong enough to maintain this constant focus, back off, or you will mindlessly lock tension into your body, as Prince suggested.

Sifu Gregory Fong has a great article on ZZ practice, with a unique take that helped me immensely - he stays out of the realm of energy speak and even warns against focusing too much on relaxation - his approach is to train the mind to actively connect with and engage the correct muscles for standing, and using the mind to actively work and train these muscles. This in turn helps the other muscles in the body relax. The implication is that tension in the body comes from the body using the wrong muscles to stand/move, which in turn comes form the mind not being actively and correctly engaged in the body in the moment to provide the support the body needs to function at its best.

Here's a link:

http://i-chuan.net/download/ZhanZhuangFromAnIChuanPerspective.pdf

I think these statements are important.

 

Learning to love one's self. This is easy to confuse too. Often those lacking in understanding will use this concept to self-indulge in any thing they want to do, thinking they are 'loving themselves'. My take on it is that it's more like parenting yourself; eating the right foods; developing a little inner discipline as to what our mindsets are; taking responsibility for each and every thing that happens in our life. Finding out what part we played in it. Emphasizing a cleanliness or purity in our thoughts, in our physical surroundings. Loving onesself is actually a bit of maturity, or growing up, that we may not have had within us before.

Your point on self-love is also very important, this really sums up my qigong practice for me, this type of self love is the key to removing all of the blockages in the physical, mental, and emotional, and energetic bodies. It's a tough love, not always pretty, but so worth it!

I am reminded of my favorite Rumi quote:

"Your task is not to seek for love, but merely to seek and find all the barriers within yourself that you have built against it."

Yes, Ken is correct that the calisthenic exercises many call qigong have nothing much to do or say with Love.

 

The thing is, we have ALWAYS been in a position to take it to higher levels. But how many have chosen that?

 

On the other hand, true neigong systems like Stillness-Movement hold the embodiment of Love at the core. Pure unadulterated, non-conditional Love - not someone prattling on about what their belief of Love is, but the true Love expression of our inner core, our true-heart, our Higher Level selves.

Love is so over-rated...just kidding, though you could probably tell that just form my log-in name.

Anyway I agree with Ya Mu - while I have come across many qigong teachers and books in my day that are devoid of Love, mostly just focusing of 'Chinese exercise', I have had the good fortune to learn from two traditional Daoist teachers, both lineage holders of traditions that date back to the last millenium, both of whom teach the importance of love and heart centered living. Their teachings of the classic Daoist text reveal these concepts to be well embedded in the traditional Daoist cannon as well, although many translations into English really miss the mark.

I have notice that the word love is generally avoided though, I'm not sure if this is intentional. Perhaps too many connotations with the western connotation of romanticized love, I'm not sure. But certainly the idea that we call love, loving kindness, compassion, and the related principals of service, virtue, healing/helping/sharing, these are all central to the teachings I have received.

Do you have any practical info regarding the development of this kind of awareness? Like Buddhist mindfulness?

Ok, a brief attempt to answer your question:

Being mindful in any practice that you are doing. The practice matters less than how you do the practice. Regulate the posture, breath, and mind. Look within, listen within, feel within. Maintain the role of observer, maintain awareness, and do not attach to any phenomena or goal.

Keeping this advice in mind, practices that are conducive to mind training: Standing Post Qigong - try one posture for an hour; Vipassana meditation - simply sitting and maintaining awareness, watch physical tensions, thought forms, and emotions come and go without attachment; Spontaneous adjustment Qigong - keeping the same principles of Vipassana in mind, Sleep and dream practices - too much to get into here but one of my book suggestions below gets into this topic very well - as do Sifu Jenny's teachings; internal martial arts, practiced with the development of Yi as the focus, not the development of power or skill (though those will likely follow the development of Yi).

And really any practice will do, just practice with the idea of developing your mind and exploring the nature of mind and the nature of all perceived reality. Turning every moment of your life into your practice helps tremendously. Direct oral transmission of wisdom teachings really helps - again I recommend Sifu Jenny - her talks cut through me like daggers and helped me cut through the veils of illusion quickly.

If you are the reading type, I also would recommend the following four books, they aid the cognitive mind in getting out of its own way:

Recommended by Sifu Jenny:

"I Am That" Sri Maharaj Nisargadatta

Also:

"Tibetan Yogas of Sleep and Dream" Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche

"Revealing the Tao Te Ching, translation and commentaries" Hu Xuezhi

"Secret of the Golden Flower" Thomas Cleary translation

Finally I'll copy some of a post to another thread I made recently that may benefit:

"Lastly I would like to add to the discussion that these two gems connect very well in practice: Training to free the mind from judgment and the limits of cognitive thought and emotional response, while maintaining awareness, allows for the pre-natal shen to flow, relaxing tension, easing rigidity, releasing blocks, and allowing for the natural, free flow of energy to nourish body, mind, and spirit. This "mind training" for me is the heart of spontaneous qigong. And the practice of forms, particularly for me taiji, helps develop the greater Yi necessary for more effective spontaneous practice, while at the same time helping to open the channels and the physical body to ensure that spontaneous movements and expressions of energy are expressed in a free flowing, graceful, and gentle manner."

The whole post can be found in its original context at the bottom of the page here:

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/4395-kunlun-and-spontaneous-movement-qigong/page__st__64

I hope this now not so brief attempt gets at your request for practical info. My best to you and everyone in their cultivation.

-onelove

@bamboo:

I do not disagree with you or anything in your reply, particularly when you look at long term spiritual cultivation.

I was answering the original poster's question as to how Sifu Jenny teaches, and my post is a fairly accurate representation of how I have heard her approach the topic in her seminars and retreats. She seemed to make it a point to point out the benefits of abstention as it relates to qigong and spiritual cultivation. She also makes it a point, in fact it is the heart of her teaching, to train the mind to remain in non-dual awareness, free from desire and attachment, at all times.

She makes it a point not to lay down rigid rules and guidelines however, especially in the beginning of one's practice. My take on her teaching is that when a person sets a rule for themselves (such as celibacy) that they are not ready for, they set themselves up for failure, emotional scarring and abandonment of their path. A certain amount of mind training is necessary before a person is ready for such changes in lifestyle. Sifu Jenny stresses a slow, steady approach to training and warms against trying to rush or force progress.

Her way is best summed up in a quote on her website, "Let what comes, come, let what goes go." (wow, very unintended pun in that quote!) In Sifu Jenny's system, as I have received and understand it, a sincere and dedicated student will discover all that is needed for self-realisation from within through the training of the mind. Appropriate behavior will develop naturally in due course. In the meantime her training focuses on cultivating awareness 24 hours a day, when eating, sleeping... every moment of the day is practice. A person becomes aware very quickly of just how much we leak energy all of the time, and in training the mind the person gradually works to 'plug the leaks.' She just doesn't tell you which 'leaks' to plug first, which are more important. She simply guides her students to develop awareness of all of their 'leaks' and make the choice for themselves whether they want to change their behavior or not.

Hey Long yun,

 

I've got Jenny Lamb's yigong dvd, no mention of the 100 days on it though. Sunya wrote a review on here about his yigong seminar with jenny and someone asked him whether jenny mentioned the 100 days, and he said she didn't.

 

The 100 days is for the initial transformation of jing to chi though. So if that's what you're shooting for, then you gotta do it. Also if you loose your jing, then you loose your chi. Then it's a case of no water in the boiler, no steam in the pipes, and you got nothing to work with when you do yigong

 

During the 100 days you don't even think about sex [sexual desire], even thoughts stir up the jing and interfere with the transformations. Need i say anything about physical expresions of desire. In Arya Nagarjuna bodhisattva's exposition on the Perfection of Wisdom sutras there are 43 analogies on the dangers inherant in desire, a couple of my favourites:

The desires are like a thinly covered grove of knives, like flowers covering filth.

Those engaged in desires are like convicts in a prison, like a peaceful man cought up in military combat.

 

The higher you go, the higher the stakes are, and the more damage you can do yourself.

If you have a question along these lines, I would recommend e-mailing Sifu Jenny; she likes to receive questions about the practice and regularly updates the FAQ on her website with the questions she receives;

I will share what I have heard from Sifu Jenny at her seminar and later her retreat:

Do not engage in sexual activity 24 hours before or after your practice, as this is damaging/depleting. She has also shared stories of fellow practitioners who practice total abstention, to great result - the particular story that sticks in mind is the story of a push hands master who trains standing post/wuji qigong 3 hours a day, abstains, and has tremendous strength. She discusses the importance of training the mind to remain in non-dual awareness, and tracking the origins of all thought, desire, and emotion.

She does not advocate rigid adherence to abstention however, and treats every individual case differently. If strength and power are your goal, abstention might be beneficial. Her teachings are quite straightforward - train your mind to remain in non-dual awareness and good qi flow and development will follow, health with follow, understanding and wisdom will follow, your own path will become clear to you. Applying rigid codes of behavior or specific alchemical processes to the practices she teaches does not work. That is not to say that these processes and behaviors are invalid, they are simply not a part of her system as she teaches it. Finally she advocates finding a system that resonates with you and sticking with it with all of your heart, and not mixing systems/processes/energy practices from different teachers/lineages.

This is what I can quickly remember and paraphrase from my time with Sifu Jenny - please check in with her for a more complete or accurate answer.

Happy cultivating to all, and to all a goodnight!

Amidst all of the back and forth of this thread two real gems of wisdom have been brought to the surface.

Thank you to Red Phoenix for your point on discernment versus judgment - in my experience this understanding is key to progress in spiritual development, particularly mind based training methods, be it Yi Gong, Tibetan Bon Po or Nyingma,or Daoist Golden Light or similar alchemical methods.

Also thanks to Hundun for your point on Spontaneous or Natural Flow methods of qigong - I have experienced these methods to be quite valid and effective in my practice. I also consider Spontaneous/Natural Flow methods to be quite gentle and nourishing.

Lastly I would like to add to the discussion that these two gems connect very well in practice: Training to free the mind from judgment and the limits of cognitive thought and emotional response, while maintaining awareness, allows for the pre-natal shen to flow, relaxing tension, easing rigidity, releasing blocks, and allowing for the natural, free flow of energy to nourish body, mind, and spirit. This "mind training" for me is the heart of spontaneous qigong. And the practice of forms, particularly for me taiji, helps develop the greater Yi necessary for more effective spontaneous practice, while at the same time helping to open the channels and the physical body to ensure that spontaneous movements and expressions of energy are expressed in a free flowing, graceful, and gentle manner.

I wish you all well in your practice, whatever it may be.

Threads which degenerate into gossip will be closed.

Threads which generate this much interest, energy, and emotion should not be closed. One person's gossip is another person's fact, and vice-versa. Everyone lives in their own projected reality....

Some people have had wonderful experiences with Kunlun and Max. Some people have had terrible experiences with Kunlun and Max. Some have had both. Many people are out there wondering whether they want to have a go at an experience with it. Let people say what they will, let people conclude what they will.

Hi dmattwads, I would like to know if there is some system that includes some sort of insight practice, a more complete system as a substitute for vipassana.

 

Or something that goes well with vipassana. Although I don't know exactly what that means. I guess something that helps keep my body in balance, healthy and that provides me with energy.

 

But I'm also interested in general about what qigong in general has to 'offer'.

 

Thanks,

Andy

One option to investigate would be Spontaneous Adjustment Qigong as taught by Jenny Lamb:

easterninternalarts.com

Her website has some good information about the practice under the Q&A and self healing sections. Sifu Jenny teaches a lot about the importance of insight and awareness training along with your qigong.

In my opinion this is not information that should or would ever be shared casually.

Don't get me wrong, I like the man's syllabus - checked his website.

Especially the concept of a 28 Lunar Mansions Qigong practice is most intriguing.

Dunno. I hope I'm just wrong. I feel a strong connection with the Yin World in him.

 

PS: Regarding the teeth question, there was a chart with the teeth and correspondent meridians, somewhere on this forum.

Definately teeth touching each other, imo.

I took a workshop from Master Wu this spring and struggled with the teeth together thing for a while but gave it a go for the 49 day period that I "tried on" the form he taught. After some time I found it was very easy to close the teeth without tension, and the process of learning how to do this helped me connect with a tension I've held in my jaw for some time and finally release it. I don't always try and keep the teeth together now though, I do what comes naturally. I just include the teeth in the list as I scan my posture for alignment and tension.

As for the vibes, for me nothing but good vibes from the man. Great forms too. Not my primary teacher but I enjoy his traditional approach to teaching the wisdom tradition (Yi Jing, astrology, cosmology) as an integral part of his gigong and taiji.

Thanks for the welcomes, both kind and funny. I've enjoyed reading threads on TTB for quite some time, Many thanks to all those here that share their experiences and knowledge. I've spent way too much time here in the past two days now that I registered...best to stick to my discipline and practices but I'm sure I'll see many of y'all around here every now and again. Onelove!

There is no need for all the drama and problems that are associated with particular approaches. Change is desired and needed to raise awareness but it needn't be violent. Usually the forced type practices or practices lacking a good closing method are the ones people have problems with. Think "in a natural progressive manner". So basically my answer to your question is yes this does happen but only in unbalanced systems.

 

I'd also say that there are instances where a practitioner can force the issue even in a balanced system - trying to detox to fast, being motivated by guilt or shame, the reasons could be many...

I think the best advice I've heard here and else where is to work with an accomplished teacher and/or CCM/TCM practitioner. And don't try and do it all at once. It's taken your whole life to build the patterns you now exhibit, it may take a lot of time and practice and treatment to reverse these patterns. Those with damp heat patterns, for example, need to progress very slowly to move through stagnation/deficiency without aggravating the heat...

 

I agree. I just want to clarify that Kunlun is not just the spontaneous practice...

 

Writing 'kunlun/yi gong' gives the impression that these are pretty much the same system, when they're clearly not. That's all I wanted to point out for the sake of clarity - especially for those unfamiliar with either of these practices

I hear you.

From a reputable source:

yes, the practices are quite compatible, but don't do them the same day.

Separating by a day, or even part of a day is ok, though more aggressive dan tien qi gong (qi packing)is best not to mix at all. Many practices can be done together - all kunlun practices close with dan tien breathing, golden flower fills all the dan tien, all can be done together. You get into trouble when doing packing/compressing or conscious circulating, but other methods are ok.

Yup, still practice it.

 

 

 

 

Yi Gong and Kunlun are two different paths.

 

Kunlun uses the forms practiced in Yi Gong, but goes about it slightly differently, and adds distinct additional practices that make it very different overall.

 

Grouping these two individual practices together confuses matters.

Yes, different paths, different systems.

But for the spontaneous practice, I see it as the same practice, whether you call it Yi Gong Level 1 or Kunlun level 1. While Max's approach and Jenny's overall approach are different, they both teach the same thing when introducing the spontaneous practice - every person's practice is different, every individual will take a different approach and experience different result, some people start holding the ball a little different, but its all the same. Max's facilitators are encouraged to teach to their own style while maintaining the essence of the practice - so learning Kunlun I, II, or III from 2 different facilitators will often be far more different than learning the spontaneous practice from Max or Jenny - at least this was my experience. In any event that is what is so appealing about the practice - that it takes on it's own life for each individual, truly becoming their own personal practice. With every person it is different but still the same practice. What is confusing for some is clear for others. For some the kunlun/yi gong connection is confusing, for others understanding where the practice comes from is informative. Everyone is different, I can only refer to the practice in the ways that I have experienced it.

I think kunlun/yi gong is a very beneficial practice, it really adds a layer of depth to my other qigong and meditation practices. Seeing the form in the formless and the formless in the form helps bring me closer (still a ways to go...haha) to the wuji state. I think eventually the formless/spontaneous practice can be all that one needs but a solid foundation in qigong and daoist wisdom traditions is very helpful before one can leave all forms behind. Maybe many never get to that point, and its not a point for all, but developing awareness, training the mind, and developing intuitive knowledge are the biggest benefits of the practice for me.

Other practices in kunlun system are also quite good and powerful; individually I could recommend all of them. The only downside from my perspective is too many practices - better to pick one practice and do it daily, learn from it, rather than sampling from the buffet table of spiritual practices.

Also for me I like to see an emphasis on body-mind-spirit all in balance - to that end I think it is important for practitioners have or work to build a solid foundation in qigong practice, theory, and history before putting all their eggs in the enlightenment/attainment basket. I think many will find this basket isn't as important/appealing to them as it once seemed.

Oh yes about mixing practices - the spontaneous practice helps build awareness and intuition and will make it clear to most what practices are compatible and which are not - for me it blends very well with internal martial arts, qigong, and many meditations, daoist and buddhist. Red Phoenix seems a little more picky about what you mix it with. I stick with he spontaneous practice for myself, although I am always open to learning about other energy practices to help gain perspective and insight on my own practice.