Pablo

Rather than choosing between labels, I would focus on methodology.

The clearest Taoist path I have found is given by Bruce Frantzis Kumar in his book "Relaxing into your Being". I have written a brief summary here. Theravada Buddhist progress map is probably the best in many ways for westerners, check this. See that most of energetic descriptions here in Taobums match with Theravadas's Arising & Passing stage. I highly recommend Daniel Ingram's MCTB book which you can read for free in the previous link. Next year he'll print an expanded edition.

Having said that, I'm 100% on Taoist/Zen's Return to the Source/Note Vanishings, as described by Shinzen Young (pages 95-103). It's a truly (no bullshit) Taoist path boosted by an Buddhist analytic frame. The progression map is described here (pages 40-45).

Best wishes!

Hi, you may be interested in reading the progress of insight as described by the Buddhist Theravada tradition. Cannot say much, but most of unenlightened taoists like me experience over and over again the symptoms described in "Mind & Body", "Cause & Effect" and "The Three Characteristics".

Have a look at:

http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/dharma-wiki/-/wiki/Main/The%20Progress%20of%20Insight?p_r_p_185834411_title=The%20Progress%20of%20Insight

Best wishes,

Pablo

 

WOW, that was awesome! It looked so much like expert beautiful bagua, and so HOT! I'm taking tango lessons

Yeah, I love that clip. At first foreign people tend to see Tango as Hot, but once you get into the music and dance, you'll feel a whole range of emotions in a single song: desire, passion, sorrow, nostalgia, protection, anxiety, calmness, euphoria, hapiness, etc.

Hear with eyes closed all the sections you have in a single song:

Pablo,

 

What do you mean by "roll your shoulders back vertically, not horizontaly?"

When the teacher tells you to open your chest, try doing it as stated above. It's a relaxed way of openning it.

If "in Nuevo Tango, thrust (push & pulling) comes 70% from lower tantien and 30% middle tantien in males, in females the opposite," what happens to the legs? Nothing comes from the legs?.. What about weight distribution/commitment, what about full/empty legs -- is anything like this phased in in tango?

Of course, you're not floating LOL so you need your legs pushing up from the ground. Like Taiji, you sink your chest, let the energy drop down to the ground and rebound through your legs and push/pull outwards from your tantien. Weight distribution is 100/0 mostly, even in "open step" (though it may feel like 80/20 while leading "voleos". You always push from the base leg (full), and not falling into the next (empty) step.

Upward and downward spirals (peng) are the bread and butter of Chen style -- are you comparing Bagua to some other style of taiji?

Not at all! Just Bagua. You will eventually find some spirals going up and down your base leg, but what I'm talking about is thinking the human body as an X, a sand watch, an inverted cone on top of a cone, with the tops touching at tantien level. A circle at shoulder level triggers a circle at feet level (through a descending spiral), and the opposite too. Also, both circles can go in same direction or the opposite!

Best

Hi Taomeow,

Good to see you liked the video! Unfortunately I didn't save the last post. A quick summary of it would be:

1. stance-embrace: roll your shoulders back vertically, not horizontaly, that will allow you to sink your chest. You lead with the shoulder-blades, not with your chest.

2. older tango style use an inverted V embrace, while "nuevo tango" (mid 90's onwards) uses a II opening & closing embrace (and leaves inverted V for a special dramatic effect or for "volcadas").

3. In Nuevo Tango, thrust (push & pulling) comes 70% from lower tantien and 30% middle tantien in males, in females the opposite.

4. Though Taiji and Nuevo Tango share some similarities like subtle manipulation of the "opponent" (push & pull by elastics), pushing from the ground vs falling into the step, sitting in the kua-femur heads before "sacadas" and other common moves, Tango is much more similar to Bagua because of the heavy use of upwards and downwards spirals.

Below a typical example of Nuevo Tango, dancing a zamba (native folk music) in a tango way. The film taken from the roof let you see clearly the spirals.

Other Tango Nuevo clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga1dUZm6lbc

Older Tango Style:

And why not some Milonga too?

Eliminated due to the lack of replies.

My questions are:

- Even though Liu Hung Chieh was already recognized as "enlightened" in the Mahayana Tien Tai school of Chinese Buddhism, he later on focused in taoist meditation practices. So, what aspects of the spiritual road he considered not covered well enough by the buddhist practices? Also, did Liu Hung Chieh mentioned what insights of the Buddhist tradition are harder to get in Taoism?

- Does the Water Method "flattens" the peak and pit stages in the Buddhist path, named "Arising & Passing" and "The Dark Night of the Soul" ?

Thanks for your help.

Pablo

I ordered Chi Kung for Health Vol 1, I already have volume two the seated forms but thought Id start the standing practice as my main practice.

Yep, I practiced the standing meds for a couple of months and then started to add the seated ones. Daily practice, really slow motion and awareness on your body reactions would bring you tangible results.

Best,

IME the best DVD collection available is Flying Phoenix Celestial Qi Gong.

There's a +26 pages thread of practitioners comments and Sifu Terry Dunn answers here in TaoBums!

I've been doing Yang-style Taijiquan for a few years (following a decade or so of karate and a couple years of JKD). Recently, I've become interested in trying Zhan Zhuang. I've been studying under a teacher, but recently I've moved away, and I'm looking for something to push the boundaries of my practice while I am no longer being literally pushed. Does anyone have any advice - good postures to start out with, training schedules, etc? It would be greatly appreciated.

If your goal is Taijiquan, then horse stance (20'), front stance and back stance (10' each, both sides) postures of the long-form is what you may need. Once your confortable with them, you can try really slow-slow motion within the postures, and so learn to recruit every square inch of your body to move. The more relaxed you are, the easier it will be to feel all your body and the connections within. Also, you need to supplement this workout with some Yang and Wu neigung exercises you like (check Youtube).

Sifu Terry,

Thank you for your detailed answer and encouraging words!

I'll redouble my efforts and post in the future any new insights or problems that arise in my practice.

Best wishes.

Hi John,

I'm a newcomer to FP Qigong, but even with only a 2-month experience I can say that the most basic standing FP meditations are ten-fold stronger than a 3-year practice in Hunyuan Qigong (FZQ) and a +100 times worth most Eight Piece Brocades seen in youtube. If only I would have known FP years ago... Sifu Terry mentioned before in this thread that once you have a solid amount of practice in FP, you could discern with greater ease how powerful other qigong systems are.

Best,

Were you able to see auras before FP or after starting FP?

 

I guess if you can see it directly the third eye is involved (ie. energy interpreted by the third eye and overlayed optically onto the physical eye "picture").

I could see the pale blue aura before, but not consistently. The pink-red one after starting FP. The experience with the book at the park too, and it was radically different as auras where not elusive but always there, easily seen, and the pale blue was intense, like turquoise.

hello,

 

thank you for your question!

 

Because it is different from Vipassana (at least as far as i understand it).

it seems to be a more direct aproach to deal with blockages,

because i did the outer dissolving technique (at least i think i did if i understand it properly) by accident with amazing result!

(I dissolved a phenomenally intense migraine, and it never came back! people who had migraines in their life will certainly understand how big of a deal this is )

 

And if the technique is anything like i imagine it is, i believe it would be a great fit with my natural tendency to approach things, a more direct way to deal with these things, and a new tool in my toolbox to change things up.

 

thanks again for your interest and question!

Hi!

Could you please chime in the "taoist practice and cycles of insight" thread? It's about vipassana and taoist practices. I think your opinion will be appreciated.

"As far as I understand, we are doing vipassana too, not intentionally but as an outcome of the practice." Good call. I've said this before. "What are we sending around the system when we do qi-gong?"

Awareness? Intention? And where are we sending it exactly?

Thanks! In my opinion, there are two steps in qigong, first triggering qi flow through external and/or internal movements, and then observing the system reactions.

Hmmm I have often wondered about this question.

 

I tend to think there may be differences in Intent and effect for many practices...

 

(In) Vipassna ... basicly one sits and watches all the changing sensations in ones body or mind or breath until one is Very clear about the fact that everything is changing and ultimatly empty, Till you don't even have to think about wether it is empty or not, as you can just 'See' clearly and non-conceptually and Instantly the Reality of every sensation and situation.

 

This is very different to just moving awareness or energy around your body to open channels, or to increase ones Chi capasity...

 

But that being said, I do not think they have to be mutually exclusive either. Some Chi meditations may produce Insight as well. We would have to look at them case by case to know.

 

I do not think MCO [at least the ways I have been taught] are Insight practices. Nor Kumars water Method, although I really like his stuff for long sits as a suport when my body gets sore...

 

A Question about whether something is an Insight practice or not for me would be 'Whats my Focus or attention primarily on. If it is on building chi or moving some energy somewhere else then there is not much room for just viewing the changing nature of things with most of your minds attention.

 

I personally like to do Chi stuff first to calm my mind, then I go in to Insight practice.

 

But I may be wrong

BKF dissolve method spots body sensations (in particular blockages) from head to toes. Some versions of Vipassana do exactly the same. I'm talking about the method, not the byproduct, which IMO is deeper in Buddhism. In higher stages, taoist meditation methods focus on emotions and memories (thoughts) in order to dissolve them. In Buddhism there is a mix of vipassana and samatha practices to deal with these kinds of mental things too.

I found by trial and error that some qigong before sitted meditation boost my practice.

All good advice in and of itself.

There is some nuances though related to how more basic practices in different Daoist lineages may converge, yet at the higher levels they differ significantly.

Actually, you'll find a whole array of different "higher" of more advanced practices in all the major Daoist lineages. Not only in Nei Dan.

 

Another common misconception is that all Daoist practices are about evocing chi or jing, and then guide with intent. For all good systems I've looked into, the really effective teachings emphasize intent and conscious effort only slightly in the beginning, and then a letting go.

 

The convergence I mentioned was about Taoist and Buddhist meditation practices, not inside Taoism. That said at 30.000 feet high, because there are many differences between what Kenneth Folk calls something like the vertical movement (towards enlightment) and the horizontal one (exploring layers of the mind and developing all kind of habilities).

You may have a look at:

http://kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/page/20+Major+Strata+of+Mind

as well as the Process of Insight:

http://kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/page/The+Progress+of+Insight+(Part+One)

As usual, please include in all I said: AFAIK, IMHO, IMHE, etc. Like the old saying "today's insight is tomorrow's half truth".

Best,

Hi Andy, interesting question!

My understanding is that taoist practices are a Physio-energetic path, much like vipassana expert Kenneth Folk describes here:

http://kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/page/Physio-energetic+and+Psychological+Models+of+Enlightenment

The diversity of paths inside Taoism is probably bigger than in Buddhism (because of its physiological nature)mostly in the beginner stages, but converges at higher ones.

This is an excellent wiki of the taoist practices created by older members of the forum:

http://www.alchemicaltaoism.com/

As far as I understand, we are doing vipassana too, not intentionally but as an outcome of the practice. Though there are some specific practices that are intentional indeed as Bruce Kuzmar Frantzis "The Dissolving Process of the Taoist Water Method"

http://www.energyarts.com/Articles/Bruce-s-Articles/Release-To-Freedom-The-Dissolving-Process-of-the-Taoist-Water-Method.html

Check also:

An Informal Discussion on Taoist Meditation - Part 1

http://www.energyarts.com/Articles/Bruce-s-Articles/Kumar-Frantzis-An-Informal-Discussion-on-Taoist-Meditation-Part-1.html

An Informal Discussion on Taoist Meditation - Part 2

http://www.energyarts.com/Articles/Bruce-s-Articles/Kumar-Frantzis-An-Informal-Discussion-on-Taoist-Meditation-Part-2.html

Best wishes,

Yes I am with you on this stuff. I have woken up, or just look at the clock and it be 11:11 for along time, since 13 I would say...

 

And it's funny my husband said I notice. I set the alarm for our child to get ready for School, and you wake up like a couple of min. before everyday. I told him internal clock which is probably is... I said don't stop setting that clock, I will stop waking up...lol

 

I never heard anything back about those questions.

 

As far as you floating above your body, are you vibrating at all? Do you think you are having sleep paralysis? Thats what it's like, and it is also. If that maid any since...

Take care Mel

Hi Mel, yes I had plenty of sleep paralysis, at the beginning quite scary. Then I could observe that the unpleasant experiences were triggered by chi, and that not stopping it those experiences simply disappear. Nowadays is just a physical chi experience that I observe (amazed I confess), and it's not a strict sleep paralysis as I can move. Whenever fear appears I watch how the process unfolds as Kenneth Folk describes in his blog: Fear-Misery-Disgust-Desire for Deliverance-Re-observation-Equanimity. It happens quite fast...maybe just 3 seconds!

im looking for something that will give me the correct healthy diet for someone whos suffering with i.b.s i really need some help. the 80 10 10 diet has no sound evidence to base the science on. so can anyone point me in the right direction?

Back then, my diet was pretty narrow. Try this for a week an see if it helps:

roast chicken

tuna

cheese

carrot

pumpkin

rice

banana

apple

Very interesting, So which postures are the most "water"? So Do I keep my arms BELOW or at level with the nipple?

IME the easier is: horse stance, knees lightly bent, rigth palm over left palm at tantien. The variation I practiced most is same stance with hands like in a prayer but palms facing your chest, as if opening a small book. Check that your elbows are at navel level. Also that your chest goes inward. For the "holding the ball" stance, keep your arms just below the nipples level.

Insightful stuff.

 

When I do ZZ I dissolve tension in my body by listening to a 15 minute guided meditation called the Archaeous. Its from Rawn Clark, it has an interesting take on element theory by having you imagine the feet to the hips as earth. Waist & stomach region as water, chest as air, etc. Listening to it takes me through 15 minutes effortlessly, feeling strong. Its a free download, just google it if interested.

 

Rawn has many fascinating indepth meditation available for free mp3 download on his site.

Thanks! I've heard before of this kind of practice but never knew who developed it. There are a lot of stuff available on google. I'll give them a try.

The way I dissolve tensions is finding a stance where you have the floating feeling and investigate at lower abdomen and kwa where I'm actually collapsing instead of relaxing, or compensating by tightening other areas. I always find new things to observe and investigate. I kind of relate it to a pre-vipassana practice.

Then, more at a superficial level I let hot and cold currents go down my legs. I complement them with another practice I like very much: dissolving tensions from the sole of the foot, upwards. Feels like a pull down, a controled demolition.

Best,

So basically the question here is there sometjing about zhang zuang which makes emotions harder to control? Whenever I do zhang zhuang for more that 5-10 min, the next day my temper is nuts, I feel anger so much more easily, to ythe point where I can control it. I do believe my posture is good so I dont know what to think....

...

Whenever I do the eight brocades my knee hurt. Infact any horse stance posutre hurts them so I stay away.. Do u think its a matter of preparation for the more advnaced postures little by little?

Ramon25, I would suggest you to fix your legs and learn to dissolve body tensions through them. IMO your stance is not good enough, your knee problem escalates tension all the way up to your chest, hence your temper changes. And if your arms are held higher than the "nipples line" and you make a circle with your arms as wider as you can, that would only add fire to your emotions.

There's a mistaken understanding regarding ZZ, that a static posture is in fact "static", instead of endless corrections of alignments. The special gift of ZZ is not to pack you full of chi but to learn to read your body.

I had UC for 14 years, which is far worse than IBS, and after making big changes in my life I finally regain health almost 7 years ago. There are many good advice in the posts above. But having been there before, I would highly encourage you to first start any group activity that make you laugh, give you fun, joy, etc, as to give your brain a brake from dwelling on your malady. I highly recomend you jumping into a social dance like lambada, salsa or rock... You'll have a nice shot of sex hormones , connect with your body and others, regain trust on your social abilities, have fun like when you were a child, etc. Once I got a happier attitude towards life I could gave the next step: be my own boss, depelop a job on my own. Only then I could fully engage with qigong & taiji.

Can't say chinese medicine & qigong won't help you in your state, in my case it did not. Have a try at them. But real changes involve walking through three doors: body, emotions and mind.

Feel free to PM me, I'm not fluent enough in english to give you a detailed account on my journey, but would be glad to help you.

It could be one or many things even if your posture is good:

Do you do any low (edit: slow) warm up before ZZ?

Are you going too deep into the posture?

Are you staring at the front very intensively?

Are you breathing from the tantien, and let it really drop?

Are you too focused on chi sensations?

Does your ZZ practice have a martial goal?

Any noice bothering you while ZZ?

Best,