Athanor

s HA! Didn't explain it well I guess; yes I know (to my satisfaction) what worked and what didn't. Most of those things use, as already pointed out to you, convection currents from heat. To actually move objects with external qi projection requires cultivation of energies and intent that is IMO such a waste of time, and takes the practitioner in the totally wrong direction for spiritual and personal growth.

 

Yes, to continue with what I am trying to convey above. The energy required to move an object is very dense and of a low vibrational energy. To heal others and actually manipulate energy on the quantum level we have to raise our energy body vibrational rate to a Higher Level to be able to actually manipulate the fabric of the universe. This is a lifetime pursuit and we would be going backwards to pursue the lower level densities.

I thought high vibrational energy is more dense. You know, when frequency is higher, wavelength is shorter, and more waves appear within the same distance than in low frequency waves - i.e. it's a denser vibration. Oh well... maybe the esoteric approach to "dense" and "vibration" is different.

I think manipulating qi is also happening on the quantum level, whether you use it for healing or not. If you use the energy which is the root of all energies (and qi probably is, if the old scripts are correct), then it is certainly operating on the quantum level.

 

I thought the basic principles in Tao are jin, qi, and shen. I thought that the mind leads the qi and when the qi is focused then it gathers the essence and substance will be formed - thus physical change will occur. If it isn't so, then how does physical change occur through qi manipulation? And if it is so then why would there be a difference in moving something with qi, and healing someone with qi? I still don't understand this difference, although you seemingly explained it with some "low energy - high energy" stuff, but let's face it, those kind of things don't really say anything.

 

 

You know, I find it really interesting how people deny the importance or even the value of such abilities like manipulating things with your qi.

First of all, healing is manipulating, thus healing with qi is also manipulating matter with qi. If you accept this, then accept it fully.

Second, what's your problem with playing? Look around in nature. All animals learn with playing, human children learn with playing. Playing was "invented" by nature so that young living creatures can prepare for the real life experiences. It's a valuable part of life. Yet, you behave as if it would be something degenerated which should be wiped out of the entire universe, from everyone's lives. Well, it's not something like this. On one hand, playing with qi helps you to develop a strong ability to manipulate it by your own will, regardless of the circumstances. It's like when you practice to meditate - the more you practice, the less distraction will actually bother you during it. On the other hand, when you know how to manipulate the vital energy, the root of your whole being and the universe, you definitely get something what is far beyond your own imagination. You will get an insight into things, how they work, why they work like that, what they do and how they do it. This is really an unnecessary knowledge if you're concerned about reaching enlightenment and you don't care about anything else in the whole world. But I think knowing such things is really fun. And it is indeed valuable. And I believe many people who consider this kind of endeavor a waste of time merely do that because they don't have the ability to do it, and they'd instantly change their minds if they'd figure out how to do it. Because everyone likes to play.

I tried these types of things 25-30 years ago, some would work and others wouldn't. I will grant you that it is entirely possible to develop qi to move objects. I also stand by what I said in that anyone who does this is only playing with toys and wasting energy. NOT at all the same thing as which you would use to heal a person - an entirely different vibratory level. Why not learn that instead? Much more useful.

Won't argue about the heat thing as it has been a LONG time since I studied thermodynamics and taught graduate school solar thermal engineering.

 

"some would work and others wouldn't". Haven't you ever been curious what makes the difference? For someone who studied science, you're not really a curious type...

I didn't know that the energy I would use to spin the paper and the energy I would use to heal someone are not the same energy. Can you tell me about the differences?

 

You know, on a fundamental level, one man can be cured with placebo and another can't. The question is: what makes the difference? It's most likely not the heat.

Ahh, the ego is strong in this one. . . :lol: Your "theory" is otherwise called physics, huh? lol.... I do not need to provide a proof for something various other people have stated, for something I really do not care about you believing or not (by all means, please do believe millions of "psi-dabbler/youtube-er/dbz teenagers" have the ability to push yang qi out of their lao gong point (LOL) as displayed all over the internet in terms of your "qi application proof"), for something that should be very obvious to someone with a "firm grasp" of physics such as yourself mr. arm chair scientist ha-ha-ha-ha... YOU inquired upon the nature of something, you were given an answer more than once, you provided an illogical counter-argument to the given explanation, your attempt to refute the real reason of something is not anyone else's responsibility to provide you with "proof". it is clear you have little actual practice under your belt, I urge you to invest your efforts in such rather than trying to learn something you're many years far off of. And yes, I will indeed consider keeping my thoughts for my "drinking pals" ha-ha, but I know indeed we will have a wonderful time laughing over the yet-to-even-meditate chi-wizard who can spin a nearly weightless piece of paper on a needle top! OR wait, for some reason you cannot even perform this simple feat of thermo-physics? Oh, you have much practice needed indeed!

I don't waste my time on commenting you, you clearly don't belong here.

Athanor,

 

Can you actually get it to spin with your "qi"? It sounded like you weren't able to in your first post.

I couldn't make it spin. But all the ideas I could think of how to fake it, none of them did work. Neither blowing it, nor heat didn't make it spin the way it did on the tape. And I don't think that it's a very high quality (and expensive) 3d animation work... So I think it can be done - probably with qi energy.

100% agree. Qi emission is for higher level goals such as healing others. No sense in wasting energy on toys. IMO the above example is heat and not qi.

First, since it's basically easy, maybe you should try whether your opinion matches reality or not. I mean if it's really heat then it doesn't take a rocket scientist to make the experiment and spin the paper. However, when I tried it, I heated up my hands so hard that it was a really burning feeling, yet, it didn't move the paper a single bit. Not to mention that the metallic thing probably weights more, thus it's even harder to spin it. But still you might want to check whether it's heat or not.

You might want to burn a candle beside the paper thing just to see how it spins... It won't.

But - as I told you above - this was a predictable result.

 

Once again: I'm not wasting energy on toys, I'm trying to learn something.

ahahaha this old trick...i am not denying the possible application of qi in anyway, but this trick in particular is done from the hand's heat emission, do your research arm chair scientists. Athanor, I'm sorry but your theory as to why heat isn't a factor is fundamentally flawed and laughable to say the least. I'd suggest you stop worrying about a physical proof/demonstration to show your friends your "power" and focus on more worthwhile goals that do not inflate and perpetuate the ego.

And I suggest you not to claim something "fundamentally flawed and laughable" without a proof. "My theory" is otherwise called physics. If you tend to know why I'm wrong, which I doubt, then tell me, otherwise, if all you can say is that I'm wrong, which I'm not, rather keep your thoughts for your drinking pals.

 

I'd like to know how this works because it's simple, and it might just be simple enough to serve as a tool for learning to guide qi. Although healing is a much more appropriate application of the ability to guide qi, it's also much harder to learn to guide qi and see its results during healing sessions.

 

By the way, armchair is 1 word. I did my research.

I think it is most likely just heat. Because heat rises, yet it also radiates. Also, gravity is stronger pressing downwards than sideways so that is a reason why the paper doesn't rise up.

Heat means particle kinetics. The higher heat something has, the faster its particles are moving. This means that radiating heat is actually a bunch of air particles which get a kick from the hand's speedy particles and so they start to move faster. But they move faster in every direction, on both sides of the paper. So the paper effectively gets the same force from left and right, ergo it must not spin at all.

Anyway, heatwave can only affect things if they have a big enough surface with which the speedy particles collide, and this can't be told about the metallic circle.

Haven't tried

 

I remember seeing a scientific apparatus from school that was of a similar set-up, but using an incredibly thin piece of copper sheet instead of paper - when you shined a light on it, it would spin.

That wasn't qi energy either.

Heat from the hands can't make the paper spin around because it would most likely simply lift the whole thing; just as electricity can't spin it either because it has no such effect on paper.

The only logical solution is qi energy, and since it can be lead by the mind, the question is HOW TO DO IT.

Ok, now you tell me...Is this what the video shows? If yes, it is NOT fake. It is real and you can do it as well. It's a good way to show that a kind of electro magnetic energy goes out of our bodies...and can explain lots of things about hands healing and so on.

 

I said electro-magnetic energy...well I also tried with normal paper, it does not work. Paper stops

electrons, aluminium does not. I am not versed enough in science, but there is definitely something

electric out of our palms is this what the old chinese called qi? Could be...

 

PS: if anyone tries this funny experiment, I'd like to hear from them

It is the same experiment. However, I never saw it with aluminum, just with normal paper and that spinning device. Yet, normal paper also rotates on the videos.

 

I don't think that qi is transmitted with electrons. Electrons transmit the type of energy which is called electricity, and there are plenty of other types of energy (heat, nuclear, etc.) which are not transmitted via electrons. Thus, if qi is some sort of fundamental energy, it is surely not transmitted with electrons, so metallic things are not necessary to experience rotation.

 

However, your own expectation that it won't work with normal paper because it stops electrons might be a reason why you experienced failure when you tried it with normal paper...

 

study the nuances and relationships of Clarity and Intention, i really wish you well..

What do you mean by clarity?

So the questions are:

 

Is it fake or is it real?

 

If it is real, how is it done?

 

I don't know how to do it and have never tried.

 

But I do hold to the concept that Chi energy can be directed with intention. I have used it for self-healing. No, I cannot explain how I did it except by using concentration and intent.

 

Maybe I'll try that demonstration one day just to see what happens.

 

Peace & Love!

I don't think it's fake but if anyone can prove that it is, then that's a valuable info too

 

I'd like you to try it, and everyone else too, and tell me how it went, especially if you could do it.

Look at this video.

 

 

You can actually make the paper thing and put it on a pin. Try to spin it around.

 

I worked a while with the paper thing but I couldn't figure out how to fake the spinning what you see in the video. Blowing can't be the answer because it makes the paper staggering, while the one in the video doesn't stagger at all. I once found another video in which someone did the whole thing under a glass, but I can't find it now.

 

The question is: how can you do it?

I don't mean theoretical answers like "guiding your qi" and such - of course we would need the theory too -, but I want to know how to apply the theory in real life, how to actually do things in my mind (what to think, where to focus, etc.) and my body which will lead this little paper to spin on the pin.

 

If you can do the spinning, try to observe what you do in all the details and share it with us.

Let's try to create a description which can be followed by anyone, and can result in the actual application of the theory of guiding qi. It would be a great aim in further exercises and individual development.

 

Edited:

Please keep in mind that this topic was created to find answer to the question HOW TO DO IT. According to this, please do not come here just to insult me - you can open another topic for that if you like.

Please note that the answer to the "how" question is a properly described experiment which is repeatable and produces the same result under the same circumstances. So just because you state that it's caused by heat, it won't be true, unless you can tell HOW and we can make it. Let's move on.

Greetings..

 

 

I can't 'tell you how to do it', i can describe my understanding of the process that would allow something like this to occur, though.. and, please exercise healthy skepticism regarding demonstrations like the video..

 

ALL of everything is simply energy vibrating at different frequencies, some frequencies manifest form, shape, and mass, but.. it's all just energy behaving in a Universe of 'ways'.. within the energy manifested as 'you', you can 'intend' your hand to move, and it moves.. understanding that it's ALL interconnected manifestations of energy, it's a small 'leap of faith' to 'intend' beyond the perceived limitations of our physical image..

 

 

Leading Qi to change the frequency of the brick's 'brickness', is an internal understanding.. making the hand 'harder', is an 'external understanding.. i prefer the internal understanding, but i practice both..

 

Be well..

It is very disturbing that (I think) I understand the concept of it but I still can't apply it, and I don't know why.

Do you think taiji and such practices would lead to the application? Or it's also just a possibility and maybe they won't...

 

Thank you for your answers.

There is no denying that the universe operates causally. However, the authoritarian doctrine of karma does not provide real answers to life's problems. Blaming the process of karma is a do nothing excuse! If that is not the case, then why is India and other countries that take it so seriously, have so many problems! Do authoritarian followers of karma in these countries even attempt to improve their lives?

 

Doctrines such as karma are always in the context of the higher cause. Therefor, one must submit to the process of the higher cause so as to be purified (more pain and anguish) and reach higher realms of blissful existence.

 

 

ralis

I believe that the countries which take karma seriously don't have problems because of their belief in karma, much more because of their belief in life itself.

You see, Buddhism and religions with enlightenment concept, do not serve civilization. These are the religions of the beggars. If you strive for enlightenment, then your life cannot serve civilization, technological development, modern health care or food logistics. On the most socialized level, it can only serve you and your neighbors.

Although the Dalai Lama is also frequently talking about helping each others, we may not forget that religions live from the work of mundane people. People donate to churches and they can only donate because they made some work and they got some money for it. While monks do mandalas from sand and when they're finished after a long time, they simply sweep it away to illustrate transitoriness. Great.

 

If you look at the whole teaching of Buddha and the conditions of enlightenment, you'll find that if you take them seriously, you will need to rely on others' help in the matter of food, shelter, and such.

 

I am sure that many western people have this perception about far-east religions.

Greetings..

 

Hi Athanor: I am so sorry.. i rambled and didn't answer your question.. 'his head', if you understand this.. but, not untill there is no other option for 'him'.. do not reveal your intention untill the 'door is open'.. the Qi will simply 'be there' (it's already there, you simply animate it with your 'intention')..

 

Be well..

I'm terribly sorry but I don't understand your answer. I don't know what you mean by "open door". And I don't understand another thing. If qi is lead into his head, then when someone breaks a brick then does he lead qi into the brick? I thought he leads it into his hand to protect it, to make it harder and be able to express a greater force.

 

Let's try another thing if you still have your patience

 

and please tell me how to do it. I already tried it but I can't do it purposely, but I know that it can be done without fake tricks. I'd really like to understand what kind of awareness and intention I would need to make my qi spin the paper. This would give a general insight into the whole system of qi-behavior.

Athanor:

Thanks for drawing the distinction between good and bad karma and the idea of getting rid of all karma. I have heard it both ways, but you have provided an excellent discussion of the difference between these and it is now much clearer to me why one might want to get rid of all karma altogether. Because of your unique perspective, I would like to ask whether or not you think the Taoist concept of "wu wei" is the same as what you are referring to when you say that you are living in the present?

No, it's not the same. When your mind dwells in the present, it is still filled with the present. When such mind guides your actions, your actions are filled with the present.

When you achieve wu wei, your mind is empty and your actions are driven by emptiness.

 

Although this might be true, this practice unfortunately doesn't involve the character-builder side and other mental effects of a physical training.

Greetings..

 

Hi Athanor: Suppose you ared hiding but are very focused on a 'surprise attack'.. your awareness and your 'attention' are clearly on the victim, but.. your 'intention'/Qi/action is concealed.. when the victim is 'in range' your 'intention'/ Qi/action is revealed.. this is a simple example, but very appropriate..

 

Be well..

Let's say my intention is to hit the victim on his head. Where will my intention lead the qi? Into my arm? Into my fist? Into his head?

Thanks for your patience, by the way, I appreciate it

Greetings..

 

 

Intention...

 

Be well..

So you say that my mind leads my qi if I intent to do that, but without intention qi doesn't follow my awareness?

I don't think that intention can be totally separated from observation. Even when you're merely observing and you don't intent to do anything specific, you still intent to observe that specific thing. However, intention might be the real key indeed...

 

Can you tell me how to intent to move qi? I mean what kind of mental image or whatever should be played in my mind to make qi behave in a certain way? In other words, what to do to guide qi? "Intend it" is a bit inadequate to me.

If you work as a healer, by healing someone are you taking on their karmic burden?

No. If he's sick because of his karma then you won't get sick because of healing. However, if one's sick because of one's karma then you might not be able to heal that person - this depends on whether the karma which caused the sickness is depleted or not. Btw, not all illness is caused by a person's karma.

 

Does the good karma generated by helping someone offset the original karma that has produced the illness?

If you help someone then the good karma goes to you and not to the other person. He will be helped by you because his karma makes this possible.

 

Is this dependant on the level of the karma ie how longstanding/potent it is; and is this affected by how/if you ask for payment for the healing?

Is the strength and origination of intent the key to this matter?

If you have any thoughts, tips or advice, it would be much appreciated...

(perhaps i am just overcomplicating something that's in most cases, unfathomable!)

A

If you do something to attain good karmic results then you won't really reach your goal. Bad or even undue intent indeed affects the fruits of your deed on a karmic level. The highest result comes from a completely altruistic intent which is to help every being simply to give them something. This is driven by compassion. Compassionate behavior is the best way to deplete your own karma. But if you do good to others for the sake of depleting your karma then it's not that compassionate anymore. So the best is if you don't think about your own karma, just do good things

Like the rest of the country, I am suffering from unemployment now. I am not as bad off as a lot of people. With my skills and education I have been able to find temporary work paying around $20 an hour up until recently. I am not in danger of losing my house. The payments are cheap. I drive old beat up cars. I have advanced degrees and both white and blue collar job skills. I have family to help if I need it.

 

Still, I have this negative dialog going on in my head. Fears about unemployment benefits running out. Fears about never being able to find another job because of my age. Fears about losing my health at a time when being sick can be a trip to bankruptcy court. Being surrounded by other people who are not working and hearing endless news reports about layoffs, foreclosures and homeless middle class people isn't helping. Growing up in a dysfunctional family and having a father who was always negative and an alcoholic hasn't really helped either.

 

I need to be able to calm my mind. I am facing interviews and the stress of a jobsearch and may have to get more creative about how I make money in the future. There may be change on the horizon. How can I shut down this endless chattering in my head?

First of all, I recommend you to stop watching the news and reading the papers if you don't need to do it for your job (like you're a journalist or something). If you are a journalist or something then maybe you should consider changing occupation together with your lifestyle...

 

One thing that keeps you thinking the same routine all the time is when you surround yourself with things and people who are telling you the same things all the time. You might need to do some unfavorable changes, like avoid seeing some people who talk about negative stuff with you.

I was this kind of a person: I always complained about everything and I always expressed my dissatisfaction and my problems. I had conversations inside my head in which I was imaginably arguing with people. I did arguing in the real life too, of course, this was the source of all the inner arguments. Then I realized that the same thing happens in my head and in my life. I stopped visiting people who I was arguing with and I avoided unfavorable tv spots like news full of violence, and political spots full of hatred and such things. I don't need these in my life. I don't do as if these things wouldn't exist, I know they exist, I just decided not to care about them. I don't listen to anyone who tries to complain to me.

And you know what? My mind is already more peaceful and I have much more mental capacity to think about developing myself and my life.

 

Of course meditation and the like also help, but I think the most fundamental thing in this case is the environment. Change that. Create an environment in which there are only (or mostly) those kind of things and relations which you would like to have both in your life and inside your head.

 

This might seem a little shallow, thinking that a bigger bookshelf, other drinking pals and other tv programs would solve your problem. But think about this. Your life became messy because your thoughts are messy and vice versa. Even if your mind is disciplined, if you move into a messy area and you don't make order, you'll need more and more energy to keep your mind disciplined. And if you move into an ordered environment then your mind will naturally become more balanced. You manage both and one reflects the other.

Greetings..

 

 

More appropriately: Yi (mind) leads Qi.. Qi doesn't 'follow', it is 'lead'.. if i don't lead it to influence, it won't..

 

Be well..

OK, here I need some help. I didn't know that you could actually decide about this.

What makes the difference between the mind that is leading qi and the mind that is not leading qi? What do you do different in one case and in the other to accomplish different result in relation with qi?

Greetings..

 

 

The 'stilled mind' doesn't reference it's concepts.. it suspends the referencing process.. even when the referencing process is not suspended, it doesn't affect 'what' you observe, the Moon remains unaffected, but.. my interpretation of that observation will be affected..

 

Be well..

Qi follows awareness. Thus you affect whatever you observe, even if you suspend your referencing process. Don't go as far as the Moon, just look at your own life. You give your energy to the things you are aware of, the things you observe - and thus you affect them. You can't avoid this because it's the nature of qi.

Some people prefer gender neutral pronouns such as ze/zir or hir...

I don't know what ze, zir, and hir means. In my language we don't distinguish male and female gender when we talk about someone, but it's hard to avoid it in English. You know, I really think that there are much bigger problems in life than this...

I'm speakin on anatta, you are speaking about grammar. oh well.

OK, I think I've had enough of this... if you don't want to explain what you mean then don't.

Don't be fractious if you express yourself briefly and someone (with another native language) doesn't understand what you mean.