devoid

Hi Everybody,

Aaron: Great topic!

Everybody: Great posts!

Here's a bit more food for thought - three things for treasure:

You are what you eat

IMO when intention and actions align you have strong integrity

The intent vs. action mind

In some of the old Xingyiquan Songs it is said that the Yi (the wisdom/ego/intent-mind) is the General / Leader and the Xin (the subconscious/emotional mind) is the Army / Follower.

On Wu Wei, action and inaction

Thus, to add to the Wu Wei discussion: Out of the Wu Wei springs a spark: an idea, if you like, which can then become the basis for intent, and which may eventually be followed by action or inaction (note: inaction to intent has nothing to do with Wu Wei! )

Edit: Typo

Fun sacrum+ exercise:

imagine that you have a tail,

wag it.

Hi Trunk,

What a funny and great idea. I want to try to see if I can incorporate "my tail" for balance during my next IMA session - sounds like worth a try to maintain balance

Edit: Typo

So far I have found very little info. as to what the benefits of this practice are. Anyone here have any experience with it?

I have come across many taiji practitioners who have learned to do the form quite elegantly. Yet if you start testing their form you will realize that many forget the full required "relaxed tension" in their upper limb movements - in other words, the tension of the upper limbs and supporting structures are only strong enough to exactly carry out the form while making up for gravity. Adding the stick helps remind the practitioner of the constant additional tension that must also be included. As such, the stick helps force the practitioner to what would otherwise be a solely imagery-based exercise of carrying out the form as if moving through water, honey or mud. A stick or a ball helps make it more tangible and as such can be considered a supplement to training.

Hi wtm,

I just wanted to add that it is indeed possible to combine reverse abdominal breathing with any type of internal martial arts - the internal principles presented by Stephen Hwa are universal to IMA - regardless whether effectuated using small or large frames.

My IMA teacher suggests doing reverse breathing the whole time whenever I train - especially emphasizing it during Taijiquan. I don't know why one would want to try to limit it as the whole idea with the repetition is to make it an pattern under which one acts also when under a lot of stress (e.g. if one is suddenly attacked).

I do it whenever training and I generally train for up to three hours straight. It's highly energetic and grounding is important (i.e. observing the bodily principles diligently). It is paramount to stretch well in advance and recommendable to spend a bit of mindful time closing.

As others suggested, it is always good to check with your teacher if you're in doubt or feel uncertain or of course if you experience any side effects.

Happy training

Hi The Way Is Virtue, and surfingbudda,

TWIV: Thanks for the tips - I just ordered the Fools Crow based on your recommendation - looking forward to reading it

sb: Yes, I agree there's lots of cultural stuff in there too and of course those are things that have helped the peoples of the past survive harsh and less hygienic times - especially keeping in mind that they would often eat their meats dried or smoked rather than cooked.

One thing that really got to me though was the occasional mentioning of the grandmother spirits. I am fortunate enough to still have both of mine in flesh and blood despite their advanced age, but I have come across some very strong-minded great grandmothers previously during deep meditation sessions, so this is something that really caught my eye.

A thing I really like, is their approach to seeking advice through the meditation / seeking visions rituals. It's not so much the suffering that they go through or the time they spend to achieve this, but rather the principle: I.e. that one has to listen patiently (and for long enough) to attain some answers to ones personal questions - a thing that we often forget in our hectic and pleasure seeking lives.

Edit: Typo

Yes. This is true for any aspect of our life when faced with challehges. When time allows, we should consider as many of the variables as we have access to and consider all our possible choices for action or non-action. When time does not allow for this all we can do is hope that our past understandings will lead us to the best choice.

Absolutely, Marblehead - wait too long with something (no matter how great and awesome it may seem) there will come a time when it is simply too late.

Hi surfingbudda,

I just want to say thanks for this recommendation.

I think it was a great and inspiring book about a topic of which I have little / no knowledge. I found many similarities to taoism and yet also many differences. Whilst I was surprised at the presented orthodoxy of rules to adhere to (e.g. related to women around their "moon time") it was also interesting to get a glimpse at the native American tradition and the beliefs of a hunter / gatherer society.

Thankyou devoid for the tips. I have come to think when my teacher says bring your energy center to say your hands, he doesn't literally mean you move your dantian there, but simply your awareness and intent which moves your energy there

Hi surfingbudda,

Exactly - it's funny how we (as humans) often think of ourself in total, conscious control of our muscles (except for the muscles around heart and a few others, perhaps). Keeping in mind that when walking while carrying something of a certain weight and size we use the lion's share of some 640 skeletal muscles. Thus imagery (such as "pushing an energetic ball from our center to our hands" or performing our form "as if we were submerged in honey, water or mud") helps activate a plurality of muscles which we are never consciously aware of (in addition, of course to the movement of the limbs which tend to be more under the control of the ego).

I wish you happy training and only little soreness as you begin to realize that you have muscles and tendons that you have never even thought of

I would like to come back to my pet theme that The Art of War can be read as the art of dealing with challenges:

It is interesting how the perspective shifts a bit in this chapter: Focus is shifted from the general and his army (as separate entities) to the fighter and fighting (as a unit): Whilst in the middle of the chaos of dealing with a dynamically changing and complex issue, there is not much time for pondering on strategy. A nice example of the challenger acting as a unit can be found in verse 2: "To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands" - yet there is no wishful thinking that the unit is not made up of components in 3: "Thus the good fighter is able to secure himself against defeat, but cannot make certain of defeating the enemy."

Apart from that, this chapter reaffirms the requirement of the previous chapters, i.e. that a salient view must taken. In other words, in tackling challenges one must take into consideration as many relevant factors as possible, weighing them and then using them as tools for attaining victory. This is summarized in 17: "In respect of military method, we have, firstly, Measurement; secondly, Estimation of quantity; thirdly, Calculation; fourthly, Balancing of chances; fifthly, Victory. ". This is universal in tackling complex problems:

• Measurement (Assesment of the situation)
  
• Estimation of quantity (How to respond and how much)
  
• Calculation (To which degree and where to focus)
  
• Balancing of chances (Double-checking before betting the family farm)
  
• Victory (Voila! )
  

DON'T LISTEN TO ANYBODY!

(except me!)

Hi surfingbudda,

Remember that all the talk about dan tien and energy in internal martial arts is only one of many models to try to understand what goes on. As such, you can train to do what your Sensei demonstrated by training perfect form and once you have that in place, you will need perfect intent. The good thing is: it is really that simple! The tough thing is: it requires incredible efforts and hardship to learn the form. Thus, my advice in your training for the next 18-36 months is to forget about energy (at least while training martial arts) and focus on doing the form to perfection as directed by Sensei.

Here's a side-training exercise for training how to "sink your energy": Whenever you are standing on moving bus or similar wobbly ground, take your stands and try to ride the bus without holding on. The trick to not falling is plain and simply to adjust your stands deeper. This is an excellent way of learning to "shift your center". On a side-note: Be ready to hold on in case of unexpected and overly rough movements such as e.g. pot holes.

NB: I don't train Aikido, but I do train Xingyiquan, Baguazhang and Taijiquan. The principles of internal martial arts remain the same.

PS: I am not suggesting to give up your energy studies completely. Keep them up for any other pursuits

Its not so much I am looking for info on moving energy as I am trying to find something that does not sound like some new-age yuppy explaining flower power. Someone mentioned Mantak Chia, he is the sort of person I have trouble learning from. He may well know what he is saying but, his "Taoist Studies" series for example, lacks the depth that rings credible for me. Its one thing to say, "go sit under a tree" or "convert jing to shen" but if they don't cover why, how, the reasoning behind it, and why this way over another, then I have trouble taking their word for it. But who knows until recently I was a philosophical Taoist then found a book on The Mao-Shan Tradition, so I might be off.

 

I come from another side of energy work that has a... very narrow use for it. I am hoping to find something to expand my repertoire so to speak. Opening the Energy Gates of the Body was a useful book for its detail on dissolving points. I will have to look into Yang Jwing-Ming's books. Thank you.

I can't read Mantak Chia either. You'll be pleased to know that Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming has a Ph.D. in physics from Purdue and starts out most of his books with describing his own understanding of the underlying theory of energy.

Hi Wynn,

Welcome to the Taobums

Hi Kuno45,

Welcome to the Taobums

Hi R.A.D.,

Welcome to the Taobums

Hi tccii,

Welcome to the Taobums

Hi Marblehead, Manitou,

Nice posts and interesting observations: Thanks

Again, I will soon argue that this goes beyond war and fighting, but I'll give it a few more days in the hope that we'll get some more response to this thread, first.

why not have a discussion here. there will be mma guys responding here as well

i think we could add a few more subjects to the list, maybe iron shirt, internal iron palm, martial hard qigongs, internal aspects of some animal styles.....

Hi zerostao,

Thanks for the positive feedback - I really appreciate it! Great suggestion on including other things such as the body conditioning qigongs etc.

Let's give it till and including the WE and see if others join in - if not, perhaps you or I could simply considering throwing out a text or two there for discussion on the general forum

I'm surprised that nobody brought out Tao Te Ching Chapter 31 yet, so I'll use this as an opportunity to make a bit of advertising for our TTC discussions in the sub-forum in which Marblehead just kicked off the discussion with three different translations:

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/17975-ttc-study-chapter-31-of-the-tao-teh-ching/

Here's a line from the English / Feng translation that caught my eye in relation to this odd topic thread:

If you delight in killing, you cannot fulfill yourself.

CAUTION

Hi Dagon,

Nice post. This said, I think you managed to miss the two most important safety measures:

1. Number one by far is to maintain a fairly straight spine - if it is bent or stretched you risk sending a tsunami through a curve causing the damage you talk about, but didn't experience.
   
2. If it hurts or feels weird: STOP, take a break, think it though, wait a couple of days before trying again
   

Hi andrew,

Welcome on board

Sounds like you're already on a good path and also lots of good thoughts / advice on this thread.

Often, when people start out meditating they don't really know why they're doing it - they just know that they want to know more about it and therefore need to experience it. Once having realized this, it begs for splitting meditation into two: 1) the method of meditation and 2) the goal (even if intermediate) of the meditation.

On meditation methods

Having read quite a few books on meditation, I have found The Secrets of Chinese Meditation: Self-Cultivation by Mind Control As Taught in the Ch'An, Mahayana and Taoist Schools in China by K'Uan Lu Yu / Charles Luk to be the most complete - although the title sounds a bit crazy, the book itself goes through the main principle method of meditation from the various schools of meditation (e.g. meditation on silence, breath, the senses, visualization, etc.).

On meditation goals / purpose

As for the (intermediate) goal with meditation there can be many - the following list provides some examples, but is in no way exhaustive:

• Attain inner calm / Feeling more centred
  
• Understanding the microcosmic universe (looking into oneself)
  
• Understanding the macrocosmic universe (looking outside oneself through meditation)
  
• Finding / Connecting with oneself (higher self if you like)
  
• Connecting with dead souls (subject to ones beliefs! )
  
• Accessing ones Akashic Records
  
• Etc.
  

-now, the above list serves only as examples - you need to make your own list and prioritize it in case it contains one than one element.

Regardless of what your goal is with meditation, once you are able to meditate and still your mind, you will need to connect you heart and mind - this opens the door to reaching your goals.

In case some of this speaks to you, but you are not sure how to go about it, please feel free to ask for some pointers. (Should you ask, but not get an answer, please feel free to pm me as I may not be following the thread too closely)

I wish you happy meditation

Hi fatherjhon,

I think Taomeow framed it quite nicely.

As for water or fire method or tradition it can be said that there is no method or tradition which exclusively works with either fire or water as the two are opposite poles between which you create balance. I guess Bruce Frantzis prefers to make the distinction because he likes to emphasize one over the other.

I don't know where you want to take your studies from here, but I could imagine that you would like more info on how to move energy. If this is the case I can recommend considering to look into the microcosmic orbit MCO. My recommendation is to read about it as much as you can before playing around with it too much. (Caution: Many people on this forum disagree vehemently with the self-study-approach and think that you should not read, but instead study with a master and heed his every command )

Since you're already on BK Frantzis, I suggest starting / continuing with "Opening the Energy Gates of the Body" and study / practice his recommendations on posture of the body/spine for meditation. Also study / practice his recommendations on silent, abdominal breathing. Once you have all that in place you have a good foundation for starting to look into MCO.

A good place to look for MCO are Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming's books - he covers it in several books, but I would say that Qigong Meditation: Small Circulation is the most complete. Apart from the MCO, this book also discusses kan and li, fire path, wind path and water path as well as much more.

I wish you happy searching

I find such texts interesting but I think that this is probably best left to communities like Rum Soaked Fist as there is a greater number of people with knowledge of these things there.

Hi MithShrike,

Thanks for your response. Good point. Yes, the idea of using dedicated IMA forums also occurred to me. Yet, I found that generally on (all) the dedicated IMA forums that every time you bring up the hard to grasp words such as qi, jin, li, etc. in the context of the ancient texts you get stormed by MMA buffs who will tell you start hitting harder rather than an actual discussion trying to understand what was written.

That's why I considered this forum, but I agree that there's a risk we don't have the critical mass here. This said it is very much my understanding that we have many martial artists here as well.

We'll see - perhaps we'll get something going here and if not I guess I'll just have to continue studying with my teachers, on my own as well as with my personal IMA friends. I was planning on letting this thread sit throughout the weekend and see if I got more than a handful of encouraging responses from people who want to play

Hi Friends,

I have been pondering for some time where to best discuss the internal martial arts classic texts.

If we get a round of positive answers to this, may I suggest that we ask to create a subforum on Internal Martial Arts Classic Texts? If relevant and in case an admin / moderating is reading this, perhaps you could let me know who to talk to about this?

As this body of texts covered is not really exhaustively definable, please allow me suggest a few examples:

• The Taiji Classics (e.g. Master Zhang San-Feng, etc.)
  
• The 36 or 48 songs of Baguazhang
  
• Songs of Xingyiquan
  
• Songs of Liu He Ba Fa
  
• Etc.
  

Before proceeding: Is anybody interested in discussing such texts with me? If yes, please post a short note so that we can see if this is something people are interested in.

Thank you