secularfuture

Update: I had a hard time applying the Daoist practices, so I went back to the practices that worked for me in the past - my insight and satipatthana meditations. I have a love / hate relationship with Buddhism. I REALLY wanted Taoism to work because I felt it was more in tune with the natural world, but I couldn't find any practices that provided thorough instructions that attacked the 5 hindrances directly. Too many Taoist practices focus on healing the body; quality instructions on healing the mind are too difficult to find outside of a personal teacher.

No you won't

Yes I will.

My reply was brief because I work on the weekends. I'll have more time to give a proper reply on Monday.

Neidan is primarily to be done in a phase of practice where emotional material has been taken care of, i.e after it has been somewhat resolved.

 

Practice that profoundly shifts emotionally difficult material is tree qigong. Radically effective.

 

You might also enjoy this lady.

http://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/interdenom-meditatations-jeddah/id301698663

 

h

Interesting timing. I had iTunes open while reading the replies. I'll check it out.

And thank you all for your suggestions. I'll look through them over the next few days.

I feel absolutely miserable...

I could really use some spiritual practices to help clear my mind of all the negativity, jealously, anger, depression, and frustration, and help me feel more one with the dao (with the universe, and myself).

Are there any good resources on Neidan (or internal alchemy / spiritual alchemy) practice online?

Your help would be greatly appreciated.

Am I missing something? This isn't a "literal translation" at all:

The second translation in that book is more literal. It's a Matrix, word for word, translation. It could come in handy for serious, in-depth, study.

I've been searching for years for a good translation of the Tao Te Ching. Every version I come across always messes something up! It's very frustrating, and this book has been kind of helpful.

It doesn't matter, because no one truly understands the book without studying under the author personally.

A book can't be understood unless you can sit with the author? So, to understand Universe in a Nutshell, I have bring Stephen Hawking over to my house?

Learn the language.

Easier said than done.

Even Chinese people have a hard time reading the Tao Te Ching.

Now if you're talking about more modern texts like Mahayana Sutras, that might be a little easier. Pali could also be tackled. The Tipitaka isn't worded as densely as the Tao Te Ching.

Interesting presentation.

 

I didn't read the whole thing but enough to get the 'feel' of it.

 

Having no knowledge of the language myself I wouldn't be able to speak to the accuracy of the translation.

 

I do think, however, that this would not be a good read for someone just beginning their study of Taoism. This is because it leaves open too many possibilities for misunderstanding or even a total lack of understanding.

 

Thanks for sharing that.

 

Peace & Love!

You're welcome.

I found this online yesterday:

http://www.hermetica.info/#LaoziSkipDown

I really enjoy literal translations. I prefer honesty over poetic licensing; it reflects the heart of the original teaching, and not to the heart of interpreter.

What is your opinion of literal translations?

Woo! It's finally here!

The iTunes link is on appmagination.com.

?

 

And this world? What does make you think there are no others that could be either infinitely blissful or horribly disturbing.

There is no evidence for such places. Sure, there may be parallel dimensions or universes, but there's no reason to believe karma will direct us to any of those places because of our good or bad deeds.

Hello Secular Future,

 

I have been a member of a Soto Zen sangha for about 15 years (part of the White Plum lineage). In my experience, the only mention I've heard of karma is in the Gatha of Atonement, which we recite at the beginning of zazenkais or sesshins. This simply states:

 

All evil karma ever committed by me since of old,

On account of my beginningless greed, anger, and ignorance,

Born of my body, mouth and thought,

Now I atone for it all.

 

No mention was ever made of "merit", or being re-born in better or worse "realms". In fact, you might remember Bodhidharma's response to the emperor: "No merit whatsoever".

 

About 10 years ago we did a ceremony for nourishing hungry ghostsa few times at the end of retreats. I had to learn to play the conch shell for it! It wasn't incorporated by the group on ongoing basis though.

 

Later I asked a visiting roshi during an interview if he thought that the realms actually existed. He said he viewed them as metaphors for psycholgical states.

 

So from the perspective of a layman, I would say that there is very little emphasis on these ideas in Soto Zen.

 

I hope you find what you're looking for. Good luck.

This is great news!

Thank you for sharing your experiences in the Soto Sangha with us.

And thank you for the encouraging words.

Some do, some don't. Gudo Nishijima and his students deny life after death. Others accept it. Ajahn Brahm says that it is not something to be believed, but to be found out for oneself. Zen, in my opinion, is not about trading in one set of beliefs for another, rather it is a way to transform yourself. Whether you believe in reincarnation or not is besides the issue.

Well said.

Thank you for the reply.

I think I get it now...

In Zen Buddhism, death isn't something that should be worried about.

When mortals are alive, they worry about death.

When they're full, they worry about hunger.

Theirs is the Great Uncertainty.

But sages don't consider the past.

And they don't worry about the future.

Nor do they cling to the present.

And from moment to moment they follow the Way.

Bodhidharma

Thank you for the replies.

It is not about believing but experiencing it. If it is meant to be you may experience rebirth in this very lifetime.

 

Buddhism is the practical philosophy about getting out of the rebirth eternal cycle.

I know of the philosophical interpretations of rebirth. I just want to know about some of the other concepts that I had issues with accepting when I was a Theravada Buddhist.

Do Zen Buddhists believe we can be reborn into a heaven or hell after we die?

Like that answer about experience; here's a story:

 

A soldier named Nobushige came to Hakuin and asked: "Is there really a paradise and a hell?"

"Who are you?" inquired Hakuin.

"I am a samurai", the warrior replied.

"You, a soldier!" sneered Hakuin, "What kind of ruler would have you as his guard? You look like a beggar".

Nobushige became so angry that he began to draw his sword.

Hakuin continued: "So you have a sword! Your weapon is probably to dull to cut off my head."

Nobushige drew his sword.

Hakuin remarked: "Here open the gates of hell!"

At these words the samurai, perceiving the master's discipline, put away his sword and bowed.

"Here open the gates of paradise", said Hakuin.

From 'Zen flesh, Zen bones'

I like that. I never heard of Zen Flesh, Zen Bones. I'll look it up.

I recommend Master Nan, Huai-chin's books if you can find them. They're out of print in English and I gave my copies away. I had to read each book 3 times each just to get the concepts -- he is a Ch'an master and professor and a best-seller in China. http://meditationexpert.com is Bill Bodri his American student and collaborator.

Thanks for the recommendations. I'll look into them.

No Death, No Fear by Zen Buddhist Thich Nhat Hanh, if I remember correctly, described death is a very pantheistic way. I really liked that book. I'm just hoping heavenly / hell realms aren't the norm in Zen. I'm kind of hoping Zen is more evolved than that.

What I see in Buddhist philosophy is that Buddhism is largely about being able to die with a clear conscience.

 

If you look far enough into it - you will find that reincarnation is a reality based on science.

I can almost believe in rebirth.

But what about the heaven and hell realms, and the realms of the hungry ghosts, and so on? Do Soto Zen Buddhists believe in these things?

I've been looking into Soto Zen Buddhism, and so far I've been very impressed with what I've found. Dogen Zenji, the founder of Soto Zen, was a great spiritual teacher, and Zazen Meditation looks like a very practical way to transcend the limits of dualistic thinking.

I haven't been able to find a clear answer on what Soto Zen says about death and the afterlife, however. Does the Soto Zen Buddhist (or any kind of Zen Buddhist) believe in rebirth, heaven and hell realms, etc?

This kind of crap makes me mad!

Complete Story on Huffington Post

What are your thoughts about this?

Why shouldn't the public be able to forgive a Buddhist, or a Taoist for that matter?

Thanks for sharing the link. Deng Ming-Dao is one of the best Taoist writers out there.

Where can i learn more about the religious side of taoism?

I would suggest doing your research in steps before spending money on expensive programs and teachers.

To start your journey, I suggest reading the text that started it all, the Tao Te Ching. The Sanderson Beck translation is similar to the Feng/English translation, but the phrasing is a bit different which improves readability.

Many believe that the Chuang Tzŭ (Zhuangzi) is the text responsible for starting the religious branch of Taoism. Burton Watson has a really nice translation that's available for free online. My personal favorite translation of this text is by Victor H. Mair.

If you'd like to learn more about the philosophy, and how to put Taoism into practice, the best book for this would probably be Scholar Warrior: An Introduction to the Tao in Everyday Life by Ming-dao Deng.

TAO of Letting Go: Meditation for Modern Living by Bruce Frantzis and The Essential Qigong Training Course by Ken Cohen are great aids for at home meditation practice. But if you'd like to dive deeper into some of the more religious alchemy practices, you should probably seek assistance from a teacher in your area.

I actually like all the daoist stuff though I'm scientifically inclined.

I'm the same way.

Personally, I try to stick with the spiritual exercises. I don't have much interest in the so-called medical and healing Qigong. If I need medical attention, I'd rather go to a hospital. And since my sex is already awesome, I don't have much need for the sexual exercises either.

But to each his / her own.

With Metta

And I especially don't recommend any qigong DVDs from Amazon!

What's wrong with Qigong DVDs from Amazon if they're by a qualified and respected teacher?

Tell me what's wrong with this training course:

The Essential Qigong Training Course by Ken Cohen

I guess the question is: do you want to waste your time buying little things here and there which won't serve you well?

The books and videos that I've bought have served me extremely well.

If so, then don't listen to people who are trying to give you good advice, based on their time money and experience. Soon enough, you will have your own stack of qigong DVDs and books collecting dust, and a bunch of ineffective practices that you won't want to practice.

Only if you pick poor products. I refer to 365 Tao: Daily Meditations by Ming-dao Deng daily.

You have obviously put alot of time into your private studies and practice. I believe that underneath it all, you really want to break out and find a real teacher.

No.

It is very safe to stay at home alone and pick and choose what you want to learn by yourself with no one to challenge you if you do it incorrectly or if you are not motivated to be consistent.

If you are looking for a comfortable path, Taoism is not the way to go.

So Taoism shouldn't be comfortable? It should cause stress?

Unless of course all you want is to read some books or listen to some CD's. No Taoist master has ever grown without literally dying for their knowledge.

DO WHAT YOU HAVE TO TO GET IT. If you do not have this mindset, you will not be successful in your meditations.

I already have been successful in my meditations. I've learned how to not cling to my problems, and I'm a much calmer and focused person.

From the tone and use of caplock in your posts, it wouldn't be unfair to assume that I'm probably a calmer person than you are...

I have gone in debt numerous times to travel and learn.

No one, not even you, should have to go to such extremes for information. In my opinion, all information should be free. But if you have to pay for it, it should be affordable.

There will always be sacrifice for true learning. It may not cost money, but it always requires sacrifice...

I kind of agree. I learned how to sacrifice some of my material attachments once I realized how much of a negative influence they were having.

And you're damn right I encourage people to quit their jobs for Taoism, buddhism hinduism or any other "ism" that might give them a hope of liberation if their job is the only reason they are not learning.... If someone feels that they have to choose between what they desire and a "job", yes, please chuck the job and go after what you want...

And what if that person has children to feed and bills to pay?

You don't have to answer my post tonight. Get some sleep. We can continue this Tao Fest tomorrow.

Good night.

I just had a thought...

For a beginner who's only looking for a place to start, isn't it a bit overkill to recommend a $300 - $400 teacher / program? Why not recommend a really good book first so that he / she can decide on whether or not Taoism is the philosophy they want to practice? If they like what they see in the book, they can check out an affordable Qigong DVD from Amazon. And if they want to dive deeper into some of the more complicated medical and healing practices, then they can start saving their pennies for a teacher.

http://www.kundaliniawakeningprocess.com/k...e_learning.html

 

$333 for 12 half hour lessons and lifetime access to their videos, review classes, and Shaktipats.

Thank you.

It's too bad Taoist teachers can't be more like Buddhist teachers.

Look at the quality resources Buddhists have, for FREE.

http://www.audiodharma.org

http://www.bhavanasociety.org/list/category/MP3s/

http://www.bodhimonastery.net/bm/about-buddhism/audio.html

Yet (according to you) you yourself have never trained with a teacher... So you don't know whether training by yourself is actually as good or better. I have done both. I know the difference.

And, from the looks of the pricing on that KAP page, you have the money too. Not everyone is as rich as you are.

Because you're a big boy/girl. do it yourself. If you're not interested, then don't bother...

My Google search only brought up results for "Kite Aerial Photography" and "CSAT's Knowledge Application Program." And this forum has a 4 character minimum for searches.

I've had numerous teachers and I hope to have more.

You're a high roller.

I paid whatever they asked? What difference? Why do you keep bringing up money?

Because in my world it doesn't grow on trees. I have to stick to a budget, and programs that I can afford.

Do you train with books and CD's because you think it's cheaper? Is it a money issue?

Not entirely. I could go out and spend $400 on a Taoist teacher if I wanted to, but why do that when I can order a training video from Amazon for 1/4th the price, and study in the comfort of my own home?

Why don't you ask them if they think that someone can't find a teacher.

Because I'm too busy with work, practice, and my social life to bother.

If you don;t have the money, get a job?... If you don't have time, quit your job...

If there were no books or CD's, what would you do?

As long as the Earth is here, there will always be books.

You couldn't be MORE wrong.... Take a look at all the people on this forum complaining about life threatening illnesses and issues as a result of sitting meditations they learned from books... With all kindness, I tell you... You do NOT know what you are talking about here...

You have the nerve to tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about? I'm not the one trying to encourage people to quit their jobs for Taoism. You are a hoot.

But, you have no business telling people they don't need a teacher just because that is what you choose to do...

This is my point, in summary: If you can find and afford a teacher, go get one. But if you can't, this shouldn't discourage you from practice. There are many things that you can do without a teacher.

It's not necessary. there are people on this forum that can safely teach authentic traditions... But learning energy techniques without the guidance of a live teacher can be downright lethal!

I agree. If you want to learn more about controlling your blood flow and breathing, you shouldn't rely only on a book for that. However, the average Joe and Jane doesn't need to bother with the really advanced practices. They're not required for alleviating stress and spiritual development.

I will.

 

I also ordered Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality.

I haven't read this book yet, but I've heard a lot of good about it.

Let us know how it is.

that was my introduction too, years ago, and I'm still grateful.

Same here. It's the best introduction to Taoism that I've read.