laughingblade

 

Bash where my Dad was from, whatever. You're a mean person.

I toned it down, but you're right, I am mean. My son's mother comes from Somerset too, which means my son also comes from there. Take it as a bit of fun poked at those who romanticise their ancestry.

Sorry to hear you suffer as a result of the NDE. That must be tough.

Are you well enough to do some QiGOng & standing practice. I find just 10 minutes makes a big difference.

Keep reading, keep practicing. Stick around: they aren't all as mean as me, and some of them have cool Taoist hats which they might show you.

Peace

Spirits "without bodies" abound all around us - as alien and unique and wonderful as can be imagined and many have been well penned in numerous books. Fairies at work and play - is an excellent book containing quite a few of them.

 

"Aliens" (from other worlds) clearly exist and have been amongst us for a very long time.

 

This is all verifiable - you all have the capability to foster these eyes and ears. No belief is necessary - in fact you can be a sceptic until the last drop - but it does take due diligence.

Sounds very interesting. Please tell more - how to foster such eyes and ears?

I don't consider that "proof".

Me neither. Even if they produced the note and the handwriting checked out I'd still have wanted it written in the margins of a newspaper dated after the death. Or something.

And then we'd be like "wow ghosts!". And then we'd be like "how long does the ghost exist after death?" and then "so when does the ghost disappear and reincarnation happen?" and "is it time to start drinking yet?"

And THAT's why I should really be in the garden doing Zhàn Zhuāng.

The claims about Elisabeth Kubler-Ross and proof of life after death intrigued me, so I had a look. I can't do Akashic Records (bad karma, no doubt) so I looked online.

The main claim seems to be that a passed-on client visited EKR in a ghostly form, and actually wrote a physical note as proof she'd been there.

This is one of the reports. Most tell the same story, not all with the crucial coda.

Here's the final section:

"Ross kept the note and later told the story to many friends and associates. She considered having fingerprint and handwriting experts examine the note to see if they matched up with the fingerprints and handwriting of Mrs. Schwartz, but she never got around to it and eventually gave the note to the Rev. Renford Gaines. Researcher Boyce Batey later contacted Gaines, who had changed his name to Mwalimu Imara, in line with his African heritage, at the Boston Center for Religion and Psychotherapy, Inc. Imara informed Batey that because of various confidentiality concerns relative to Mrs. Schwartz and her family, he could not provide a copy of the note. However, he provided Batey with the exact wording, viz. “Hello there, Dropped in to see Dr. Ross. One of two on the top of my ‘list’. You being the other. I’ll never find or know anyone to take the place of you two. I want you to know, as I’ve told her, I’m at peace at home now. I want you to know you helped me. The simple Thank you is not enough. But please know how much I mean it. Thank you again. Mary Schwartz. ”

So despite this awesome proof, EKR never got around to having the handwriting verified. Then later the person allegedly in possession of the note refused to make it available to be seen. Hmm...

Actually quite a few do know what happens after death. It is a rather large assumption that out of billions of people "no one knows".

It's a perfectly reasonable assumption that if nobody round here knows then it's no more likely that anybody else knows either.

I'd hoped you were using the second meaning of "actually', but unfortunately it seems not.

It's really really simply not OK, not reasonable, not correct, to assert that people know. Stop living in la-la-land and provide some proof, or some reliable path to verification. Mate I've been on this kick for 40 years - the proof just isn't there objectively, and of the practices that folk say get you such insight none of them work reliably except oddly enough for the cult leader.

Personally I have past life memories, I've had visits from dead relatives. I know people who've had visits from dead relatives before they even knew they were dead. None of it is absolutely cast-iron, and can all be explained simpler and more coherently based on stuff we DO know than by positing life after death, or rebirth of an individual.

And finally, a word from our sponsor:

"Isn't life hard enough without making shit up out of thin air to fuck with yourself?" - Bill Maher

Edited for Grandma

My Dad was from the Somerset area (still to this day "a Celtic Place"). My Mom, of Scottish descent, was an American.

I've spent much of my life in the Somerset area. Don't get your hopes up too much. Celts as far as their self-myths go tended to travel far and wide, be culturally very sophisticated. Modern Somerset (i.e. the last few centuries) on the other hand is known for being very backward, and for many people to be unfortunately rather closely inter-related. The achievements of the locals may not be as high as they might have been if they'd 'married' more often outside the family.

As for the whole Celtic thing. Glastonbury Tor remains a place of interest, but the town itself has been a messy melting pot of incomers for centuries. There's a lot of so-called Celtic myth, and indeed Joseph or Arimathea is alleged to have visited and planted a bush. However recently it has come to light (and there is documentation - I'm not just making shit up) that this and other 'ancient' myths were made up in the middle-ages by the Christian Abbey folk to secure fame and funding.

If we're talking 'energy' then Glastonbury and surroundings are interesting. The Tor still has a particular energy to it, which personally I feel is to do with the geology though I'm not an expert. The town is an energy mess though, and I keep shields up if I'm ever there. Because of the reputation of the place we've had all sorts of folk doing all sorts of magickal practices there for centuries., and they still pour in. It's a real mish mash with some quite pure spots and some really dark ones. IMHO Glastonbury isn't a place to do any cultivation any more, and probably hasn't been for 300 years.

I could've used the Kubler-Ross quote very early on in this conversation, but it was *my experience*, that I wanted to write about. NOT what E.Q.R. said *long before* my experience.

 

I'm DONE in this discussion with you.      D.A.D.

 

P.S. We're ALL "special snowflakes"!

Can I be clear? I respect your experience DAD. I don't doubt the NDE. I question the "I died" bit because you know, modern science. And also the life-after-death conclusions you drew from it.

That's not an EKR quote. You can't remember where you were, but you can remember what she said word for word? It's also 40 years ago. If you can find a credible reference anywhere else to her having said this then I'll be *very* happy to take it seriously. If you can find where she says what her proof is that would be awesome.

It's not much of a discussion though is it? I queried your belief in life-after-life and you got snitty. I pointed out that you're showing common signs of an unsupported awakening and there are healthy ways to handle it - which also rather neatly provide even more insight into How Stuff Works - you ignored it. You don't seem overly disposed towards rational discussion.

Edited to remove unwarranted fuckwittery. I'm sure DAD's Dad was a dude.

Let's remember, we are talking about beliefs here.  These reside in the state of "wu", the unmanifest.

 

What one believes they have experienced can never be proved either way by anyone else.

Almost: beliefs reside in the state of "woo", the unsupportable.

Actually if there's anything to your statement Marblehead (and I assume there is, cos you have a hat and all), then I wonder how we might differentiate between belief that can potentially manifest and belief that is and can only ever be unmanifest since it fails to meet any of the criteria for manifestation. How does the 'stuckness' of the latter express itself in a person, say?

In this case DAD experienced heart-stoppage, some OOBE/NDE during which there was a feeling of being loved. The feeling of peace and love has remained. This is great, valid, inspiring to some and worthy of further investigation to others. It's certainly worth taking seriously & there's no belief necessary. The unsupportable unmanifest woo part is the "therefore.. life after death is real".

I saw Elizabeth Kubler-Ross speak many years ago (probably 1976, or '77) and she said (after she asked everyone to turn OFF their tape recorders and to NOT take photos of her at that time):  "I have scientific PROOF I can present in a laboratory that the human soul or spirit SURVIVES DEATH, but you see, I'm afraid if I present this in a public format, that I'LL BE RESPONSIBLE for a mass wave of suicides". I went to this gathering with a psychiatric nurse tech. I worked at a suicide prevention center then, this was in Little Rock, Arkansas, I no longer remember where the building was, where this gathering was, but I clearly remember what Elizabeth Kubler-Ross SAID!

 

So, to ALL the nay sayers.......... D.A.D.

Are you telling the truth about anything at all?

Guess not. Bye!

My Dad was a Brit, what do Brits call someone like YOU? "An arse hole". But I'm an American, and WE call people like you "ass holes".

Hey, I just died! Well I reckon I'm dead to you now.

Dude I worked really hard on that post and you just sh*t on it. There's a lot in it: you're not a special snowflake, and whether you like what I say or not you can either do the work or remain a whiny *****.

PS if your Dad was a Brit then *you're* a Brit. Are you telling the truth about anything at all?

Seem to me that the "body" is working for about 49 days after "death".

 

For the first 9 days sensory cells are still working.

 

Do not cremate before 9 days.

 

Energy is releasing from all cells, which is perceptible.

 

Eventually, leaving one tiny spot in one cell in the heart, the place of appearance.

 

Collapsing into this spot, back into other dimension.

How do you know all these things?

You're entitled to your beliefs of course, but you came to a public forum and it kinda seems like you want others to not only acknowledge your experience (sure!), but to share your beliefs..

I can really really appreciate that you're revved up big time as a result of your NDE. I think if you want to properly integrate that into your life then there's work to be done.

An NDE or OOBE can be a huge shock. Your writing has a sense of insistence about it that reminds me of people I've known who get an unexpected awakening and then are on a mission. Time and maybe some counselling, physical exercise and taking up a contemplative practice can help ease the mania. If the Taoists here had their Taoist hats on they might be talking to you about the effects in esoteric or TCM terms. In more Hindu terms it might be described as a Kundalini experience.

I don't think it's particularly helpful for posters to either say "Woo! I believe that TOO!" or to label others as nihilists or materialists. That's pretty binary, whereas any genuine inquiry would surely be saying "interesting, how does that work? What else? What next?". I'm agnostic on the love & peace thing, and the what-happens-after-death thing FWIW but would love an ounce pf proof either way.

I died for about 3 to 5 minutes back in 2002, during surgery (in the recovery room). 

There IS a life after death.

- you didn't die. Sorry. Isn't that obvious?

- You're asserting in your first post that there IS a life after death.

Then:

I will honestly tell you that *I do NOT know* what lies beyond the final stage of living

So you're now saying you DON'T KNOW that there is a life after death? Or what?

Elisabeth Kubler-Ross wrote a book and called it "Death, The Final Stage of Growth".

Elisabeth Kubler-Ross AFAIK was all about helping people through their deaths. She developed the idea of the 5 stages of grief. Compassion at the bedside, as it were. That book is a survey of beliefs almost as an addendum to her main work.

Raymond Moody AFAIK doesn't claim that the NDE he researched prove life after life, despite the title of his book.

Here is what I BELIEVE: The Universe (the Dao) HAS OUR BACK, if we are pursuing De.

 

I believe that we live, and die, in a Loving environment.  I felt NOTHING but PEACE, and if this was just "the first part of the experience" how much better might the later stages be?? I Believe that we are LOVED. But that's just me, and you are welcome to believe that we're NOT, or that we vanish into nothingness, but I personally find that to be a foolish and absurd idea, after what happened to me! 

 

We are ALL in this together, ALL of us, and the sooner that we figure this out, the better off we'll ALL be!

"If this was the first part of the experience..." what if it wasn't? What if it was just your brain on anaesthesia and reduced oxygen? What if it was your winds dropping into the central channel and indestructible drop? What if it was Jesus comin' a' take you home? What is your basis for taking the experience you had (wasn't it enough?) and projecting it into what-if-land?

Belief is fine as far as it goes, which surely is only as far as taking action to see if it's well-founded. Otherwise we're in the business of Making Stuff Up. Why do you want to shout "I BELIEVE" at me? You can do that in any church or temple (said Kabir ;-).

We might not all be in this together. What kind of loving environment is it for malnourished babies in the 3rd world, for child soldiers forced to kill, for girls forced to be sex slaves for jihadists? If per your nick you are differently abled then your own experience of embodied life so far probably hasn't been all that supportive. Don't flake out of life as it is, don't fall for the cheap spiritual uplift or Newage narcissism.

Here's a thing:

Robert Monroe had some odd experiences and went on to investigate OOBE and post-death states. He set up a research institute to investigate. His books are brilliant. Thousands of people have participated, including in (they say) helping people in difficulties in after-death states. Is that nonsense? I don't know. My point is that Robert Monroe didn't go about asking people to believe his claims or indeed share his beliefs - he did everything he could to find out the truth of his experiences.

You've possibly had a glimpse. Your beliefs are sound as beliefs: now you have some work to do.

According to the following article - reported in many UK newspapers - in some 'near death' experiences death does occur but the process is reversed.

 

http://www.express.co.uk/news/science/670781/There-IS-life-after-DEATH-Scientists-reveal-shock-findings-from-groundbreaking-study

 

"Scientists had believed the brain ceased all activity 30 seconds after the heart stopped pumping blood around the body, and that awareness stopped at the same time.

But research from the University of Southampton suggests otherwise.

A new study shows people continue experiencing awareness for up to three minutes after death."

Hold on a minute aboo.

The studies referred support the view that there is can be continued brain activity for some time after heart stoppage. That means that  person is alive during an NDE, not dead.

They support my assertion that somebody who has experienced an NDE cannot make any valid statement about what it is like to be dead.

This is not nihilism, materialism, spiritulism or botulism.

BTW, you're clearly not from the UK else you'd know that the Express and the Sun are two of the shoddiest popular press publications we have. Their reporting on these matters isn't to be trusted without further research.

To the OP. What do you mean by "I died"? You're here now, right?

Death used to be defined medically as the heart stopping. This was quite a while ago. Now we know that brain activity can continue for a while after the heart stops. If the heart is restarted then the brain, and the person, can recover.

There is a definite and mysterious phenomenon in NDEs where folks see themselves under surgery etc. Many who have that experience are resuscitated without their hearts having stopped, that is without coming anywhere close to death.

My problem with people having an NDE and then saying they know what's beyond death is that it's just not so. The description is clear: "death" vs "near death". If a person didn't die then they can't say anything about death, or after-death.

Often the NDE experience results in big lifestyle and belief-system changes for the person. I don't understand why people start believing in life after death though. Senses are anesthetised and appear to not be operative, but the brain continues to operate. Why suddenly start believing in something if you didn't before?

A pulse.

Not rocks. The best a rock might hope for is to be on the garden path. And nobody wants to be led there.

Plastic plants were real plants once you know. How's that for evolution?

I think the main reason for this association is that you couldn't get a decent espresso until well after 1900.

I'd still rather be able to fly and transform into other forms. Very cool, and a magical sword too!

Why convert to anything? Why consider yourself anything? Why avoid anything? Why believe anything? Why give credence to gods, devils, or religions? Why embrace anybody else's way of life?

The folks on this forum who really impress are those who practice.

Who said that all caps means a person is shouting?

Almost everybody, since before the internets.

Pleased to see that the combination of bodyboarding and martial arts makes for such a profound balance of yin and yang. Carry on!

stop shouting, please.

Steve & OldChi are on the money. Nothing to stop you manifesting/practicing enlightened qualities right now. Then your measure of progress is perhaps to do with how you reduce suffering in yourself and the wrld around you.

after reaching that state

IME there is no that state. There is this state, and now there is this state, and now...

Rumours of an enlightenment wherein you're done, cooked, finished, are likely more myth than reality. Surely such a state would be extinction: stagnation at least?

so you can piss pretty far, good luck with that laughingblade.

Thanks for engaging 3bob. I'm not trying to out-do you. I thought that was a pretty decent post: challenging your points, not personal, and offering alternative viewpoints.

But hey-ho, if this is the kind of thing you think is serious...

but such a timeless "for awhile" has limits until the soul does all the work and preparation it can - thus reaching a point where Spirit chooses and dominates - for there is no free lunch but there is Grace coming into action

How do you confuse an Irishman? Stand him in a dustbin and tell him to piss in the corner.

 

nailing Christ to a cross doesn't hold much water either since neither nails nor death could hold Him

Huh? More stories. Gimme something verifiable.

 

I meant a particular galaxy coming to an end yet galaxies and their cycles continue on with the same energy reformed into new galactic manifestations or subsets of same

I know what you meant - I was pointing out that you could easily have used the same example to illustrate the precise opposite conclusion. Anyway I think details of galaxy formation and 'evolution' are still pretty hotly debated.

OTOH we're neurologically wired for hope/belief, and it seems entirely possible that a belief in cycles + "as above, so below" is actually a function of brain structure and the systems that emerge from it: i.e. another perceptual mechanism, not a direct grokking of some external reality.

 

when various manifestations, forms and identities are all withdrawn during part of the cycle back to source - then all that is left is the unborn and undying "enlightenment"

This is a story. At best it implies enlightenment is some kind of extinction. That would surely be no fun at all. As far as we know, based on the reports of allegedly enlightened beings: it's done in a human body, and it's not extinction. See my Kabir quote above

Cultivation works, meditation works; this isn't zenny, transcendental or any such-like. We're alive right now! If you don't like Kabir then how about Dogen? He (kind-of) says: "Everything you need is right here, now, in this skin bag. Just turn the light to shine within, and don't turn away. Take another breath, and then exhale."

who or what fears love's cutting blade?

  very good, grasshopper.

Your cycles thing is an extrapolation from observed cycles, not something directly perceived. I guess I could equally pick something that has a beginning, a middle, and an end, then extrapolate from that to show that everything has an end... A good example might be galaxies (, which) are formed, exist and then fade out or end (...oops! ). So of course, when it all ends we're all dead, no consciousness, no enlightenment: better get some in now, while you're alive in a human body (which reminds me of Kabir).

My point is that your assertion that there's an end (cyclic or otherwise) wherein we're all enlightened doesn't hold much water.

But then what do I know, I'm just the window cleaner.

 

said to the wanting-creature inside me:

What is this river you want to cross?

There are no travelers on the river-road, and no road.

Do you see anyone moving about on that bank, or nesting?

 

There is no river at all, and no boat, and no boatman.

There is no tow rope either, and no one to pull it.

There is no ground, no sky, no time, no bank, no ford!

 

And there is no body, and no mind!

Do you believe there is some place that will make the

soul less thirsty?

In that great absence you will find nothing.

 

Be strong then, and enter into your own body;

there you have a solid place for your feet.

Think about it carefully!

Don't go off somewhere else!

 

Kabir says this: just throw away all thoughts of

imaginary things,

and stand firm in that which you are.

Kabir

Why fear enlightenment since it's inevitable. sooner or later (so to speak) and always at the turning of the cosmic cycle...

Maybe I'm just a beginner at all this, but isn't it traditional to argue that it's the ego which fears it's own dissolution/death?

Considering your question directly:

Who fears enlightenment?

What do you mean by enlightenment?

I've heard that enlightenment is about the present, even if that's an all-encompassing present.

What do you mean by "sooner or later"?

"so to speak" - is this significant? Or a 'knowing' aside?

"always" - doesn't this add a circularity, begging the question of inevitability?

What's the cosmic cycle? On what basis do you assert it's reality other than the authority of some scripture? How can I verify that there's such a thing? Why would one base the idea of enlightenment, however defined, on an unknown?

((Rich))

I had a vasectomy aged 49. I'm now 55, and have noticed no adverse effects in terms of cultivation.

From a medical point of view apparently the testicles continue to produce sperm, but they are re-absorbed into the body in due course. The only downside has been a reported less-pleasant change in the taste of my ejaculate. My wife, who is a number of years younger than I and fertile, remains very happy indeed that there's no risk of an unwanted pregnancy.

IMHO pretty much all the esoteric discussion is speculative.