yabyum24

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Posts posted by yabyum24

  2. Posted

     

     

    No, even according to the suttas jhanas can screw you over by being born in the formless realm etc.

     

    This is like saying that you shouldn't drive a car because it's potentially dangerous. It's the spurious anti-jhana propaganda which comes up time and time again when jhanas get discussed. Buddha would not have taught it, if it was not useful.

     

    As far as the other points go. @ S.J. I have no issues with any of the tantric stuff you linked to, it's all good to me. What Malcom is saying about conceptual states in jhanas is just another way of saying that there is still some self-identification within them (which is true). They are graded though, becoming more refined, so the premise that they lead to "ever more conceptualization" is flawed, they lead to progressively less, as the mental unification deepens. This is well known.

     

    @Jeff eventually the contemplative passes through nirodha samaapatti which follows on from 'neither perception nor non perception'. This is where the 12 dependent related links are seen for what they are. At that point liberation is attained.

     

    It all listed in this sutta.

    "Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, Sariputta entered & remained in the cessation of feeling & perception. Seeing with discernment, his fermentations were totally ended. He emerged mindfully from that attainment. On emerging mindfully from that attainment, he regarded the past qualities that had ceased & changed: 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is no further escape,' and pursuing it there really wasn't for him.

    Obviously, considered a lesser attainment than full Buddhahood within the Mahayana school, as it is the attainment of arhatship.

  3. Posted · Edited by yabyum24

     

    "Gampopa had perfected the view and the meditations of calm abiding and

    superior insight in the Madhyamaka context according to the Kadampa system.....
    “If I had not met the great
    master Milarepa, I would have risked rebirth as a long-lived god.”
    He clearly didn't get the whole way ie. cessation - hence the rebirth as a god thing. But the suttas are clear that this is do-able within one life, so perhaps he was practicing something slightly different in his Kadampa system?
    He was lucky to get the tummo instructions, they were clearly what he needed.
    Still does not prove that jhanas lead to ever more conceptualizing though. It's clear in the suttas that they don't. I rather suspect we're talking past each other though. The Pali teachings were both geographically and culturally sundered from the Tibetan. What the Tibetans understand as sutrayana does not always correspond well with the suttas in my experience.
    It's two divergent traditions which need to be taken within their own contexts.

  5. Posted

    Jhanas are considered conceptual according to nongradual systems. In this case, it requires understanding the context of "conceptual", when being used to refer to jhanas. Maybe Rongzomfan can repost the threads from dharmawheel which explains these contexts in Vajrayana terms.

    I agree the context is important and it's true that all jhanas below nirvana are still to some measure "conditioned". There is still subtle clinging somewhere in them. But there is a progression from grosser to more refined states ie. less and less conceptuality. Not "nowhere than to more conceptuality". I don't see how that can be applied unless the non-conceptual systems have their own straw man jhanas which they can set up and knock down. You know the suttas very well S.J. You wouldn't recognise such a description of jhana in them would you?

     

    Sure, if you compare any of them to Buddhahood, they're "lacking" but if Buddhahood is the only benchmark, then everything is lacking.

     

    Non-gradual systems have their own "Hashang-style" take on things (if that's not a loaded term eh?), but it's probably a case of gradual training followed by sudden non-gradual awakening. I don't have any problem with non-gradual teachings, in fact quite the opposite, but no need to skew Buddha's sutta teachings.

     

    Tell Malcolm it's gonna need the mother of all explanations to convince me otherwise.

  6. Posted

    I'm not saying that it's unbeneficial to cultivate these states or that an individual won't naturally encounter these states during their career as a cultivator, just that they are unimportant to progress on the path in nongradual systems.

    I would have thought that anything barring resultant Buddhahood is unimportant to nongradual systems. Still, nice to have something to do whilst you wait for it to magically manifest.

     

    I disagree that cultivation, as outlined by Buddha in the suttas, just leads to "more conceptuality". It's pretty obvious to anyone who takes a bit of time to check it out, that this is the reverse of the truth. In fact it's a lie. Sorry - it is. Period.

     

    I do understand the necessity of making the suttas look as trivial as possible in order to underline the superiority of Dzogchen, but that shouldn't mean misrepresenting what is in them in order to achieve this.

  7. Posted

    I would develop a stitch when running, my breathing was inadequate to my bodies needs.

     

    From someone who suffered with bad asthma as a kid, I can relate to that. The wild, unruly and unremitting wind took it from me, day after day as I cycled to my new school in the countryside. Sweating, and scarcely conscious, I would fight a headwind, there and back, as it had changed direction by the afternoon. It hollowed me out too - blowing the clogged up paths clear.

     

    I owe the wind a great debt. More asthma sufferers should know about this.

    • Like 2

  8. Posted · Edited by yabyum24

    Maybe we should remember that we are at a unique period of history where we have access to this variety.

    Exactly. It's tempting to compare but often it comes across like school boys arguing about the relative merits of luxury class sports cars. They're years away from holding a driving license and scraping some cash together to buy their first old banger.

     

    In the mean time they can still cover a great distance on a simple bicycle.

     

    It's how far you can get with what you have that counts. A simple breathing meditation, done correctly can allow one to attain all jhanas and beyond (in much less then one lifetime). A supreme transmission or empowerment is worth very little if the recipient just wears it like a badge, swaggering and belittling others.

    • Like 4

  10. Posted

    Every form of meditation is supposed to still the mind.

     

    According to the ancient daoists, the mind mounts on Qi. SO, when the Qi flows properly, the mind is still.

    From here, you have two approach to meditation:

    1-working on Qi to still the mind;

    2-stilling the mind to make the Qi flows properly in a spontaneous way;

     

    The latter is considered the best method.

    Seems like a good idea, as there's no "forcing" anything. I ask, as we did something like mco in our Tai Chi class last week and I found it very nice indeed. The instructor introduced us to the channels from his system.

    As I have a background in Tibetan Tantra - with its channels, I found this very interesting. The whole Dantian thing is similar to the chakra system teachings for tummo.

  13. Posted

    Good poll. I also like the eclectic nature of the board. So many people from diverse backgrounds sharing insight and information. That's quite unique on line. Generally people prefer to retreat into their own closed tribal units and view others with a certain paranoia.

     

    There is also quite a high class of quasi-trolling to be had from time to time, which stops things getting too heavy. Or it lands in the pit or a ban or whatever.

    • Like 6

  14. Posted · Edited by yabyum24

    In the Nyingma scheme Ati is the ninth path, the pinnacle of all training but its methods are different from those on the paths bellow which use transformation. Although the scheme seems gradual is not meant to be understood in that way since each path (approach) is independent from the other and can lead to total realisation.It's just that some paths are faster then others.

    So dzogchen has nothing to do with HYT .

    That was my understanding of the situation. Thanks for clarifying.

  19. Posted

    I didnt say it was dzogchen.

     

    I said it was completion stage.

     

    I think you are mixing what im saying with Simple Jack

    Yeah, I'm totally confused... I didn't think it could be Dzogchen. I mean you guys have got those dark retreats, lights and stuff. I know it's secret and you don't discuss it but what little I've heard, is very different from HYT.

  25. Posted

    I like it, although I hate to admit that sometimes (in certain very, very limited situations) I have benefited from having my butt royally kicked from someone who hasn't accepted me for "being who I was". I never enjoy the experience mind you...

     

    ...they're never around for me to thank years later when I finally get around to seeing it. :blush:

    • Like 3