yabyum24

Like I said, it depends if you are talking about a vehicle or a class of literature.

Yes, but let's qualify it. A class of literature is fine, and I'm cool with that. It's just that tantra and Vajrayana are commonly understood to refer to Highest Yoga Tantra, the system of Yidam generation & 6 Yogas completion stage, As Tibetan Ice flagged up in the quote.

It seems rather incongruous.

Yes they both recognize unfabricated presence.

Both adhere to to the simultaneous approach, as opposed to the gradualist, as far as I know.

But doesn't Zen have certain similarities to Dzogchen?

lovely dialog happening! nice.

Thanks guys. I enjoy discussing the topic in an open way, I'm glad you've enjoyed it. It's not often that such an opportunity presents itself and you can imagine that such dialog is virtually impossible on most dedicated Buddhist boards. That's the beauty of the Tao bums.

I really have been confused by a lot of buddhism in general. I always thought it seemed like meditation does both tranquility and insight/awareness at the same, and I couldn't find the difference between the methods. If a meditation on not-self is a good way to get travel through samatha, then obviously the two are connected. People are "doing vippassana" all over the internet, though. It makes it very confusing. I should probably just stick to Thich Nhat Hanh books from now on and let his conversations with various inatimate objects inspire me. ^^

Hardly surprising that you can get confused, as there's a lot of miss-information of various kinds out there. I've encountered many prize nuggets over the years, the more ridiculous of which are:

1. 1st Jhana is a state of complete oblivion where the person is utterly unaware of anything and can be mistaken for someone who is dead.

2. Jhana is dangerous and is not suitable for our times. We do not have the merit to cultivate it / it is Buddhist 'dope' and just clinging to bliss in a deluded manner.

3. Dry insight is all you need, and indeed what should be practiced, as instructed by Buddha (recently invented in Burma btw.)

4. There is no self. (nihilism and never taught by Buddha)

The list of such stuff goes on. I think with the availability of communication online, there's a real chance that people who have genuine experiences, as opposed to doctrine-bashers, can share and learn from each other. There could be a flowering of Buddha's teachings on jhana. After all, he exhorts his monks to practice it in numerous suttas. Advice which is, for some reason, overlooked these days.

Thanks Nikoli, that's a great help. It makes a lot of sense.

What is this open mind pointing to, if it isn't the end itself? This is a question I've had for a while, actually.

Yeah, that's exactly what it is.

We aren't able to live in a cessation, and even if it reveals all the mysteries of the universe, how can we trust anything we learn from it?

Cessation is something you have already experienced in some measure and you have learned a fair bit from it already. Cessation of grasping, cessation of anger, cessation of the incessant ego-mind 'me-me-me' dialogue etc. You don't intellectually "learn" anything, you directly experience it and thus "know" it to be true.

There's a lot of talk about no-self in buddhism

By people who are relying on misunderstood doctrines. Anatta does not actually mean "no-self" it means "not-self" and there is a world of difference between the two. "No-Self" is some kind of paradoxical, contradictory, speculative, up-your-butt mind-game.

Not-Self is revealed in jhana because as the aggregates are relinquished in deeper samatha (tranquillity), vippassana (awareness) sees the non-ownwership of them all. Also genuine past life recall opens this up too. Many Buddhists who believe in the fallacy of "no-self" reject the notion of rebirth, as they see an obvious contradiction between there being no-person and "something" which could take rebirth. I could write a massive post on this alone, but suffice to say, you can discard the idea of no-self.

If we can simply let go of everything, does it matter if there is a self or not?

Perfect.

You can say no-self is just a way of describing a lack of attachment I suppose, but I've seen a number of places talk about "Truth" with a capital T, meaning we're going to discover the true reality or the true nature of the universe. Is this the goal or buddhism, or is it a corruption of the core ideas?

Sangha who don't bother cultivating meditation will have to justify their time by doing other things, like reifying Buddha's teachings into various doctrines and ideologies and then insisting that other people "believe" it.

I just want to find a lasting tranquility, and the buddha said that all he taught was dukkha.

Someplace he said that all he taught was "stress and its release".

Maybe we need to find an explanation of the universe that makes sense before we can let go of it finally?

Okay, I've bashed reification a bit but it is understandable. After all, it's how we have made sense of the world since we were kids and it's an indispensable tool in everyday life. Just at some point we need to drop it. I know that I'm still carrying a lot of junk in my mental rucksack, just because enough masters have told me that I have some very important stuff in there and I can't believe they are all wrong and that I have all the answers.

I take it out from time-to-time and have a look at it. It's a bit tarnished but who knows, it could still could polish up nicely?

I guess the only way to know is to experience it for myself at some point and see if it changes me at all, haha.

Yeah, that's the acid test. To what extent are desire and aversion still present and controlling us? Being honest with ourselves on this one helps to keep our feet on the ground and the work in progress.

Yes, I think at some point you realize that the things you're trying to "get" are actually the result of removing.

I've always felt that jhana is a relinquishment not an attainment.

Thanks for putting that up. There are people in my life I greatly value who suffer from depression and I never know what to say to them about it. Understanding where they're at can help. I'm reluctant to recommend meditation, as I'm aware that "for a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail". In other words, it may be completely wrong for them.

Definitely. Actually I feel like it's completely different from how it was before. I can recognize a few stages that seem to happen each time I sit now. First, there's a sort of snapping to attention that occurs - I don't try to do this, it seems to happen naturally even if I let my mind wander a bit - and soon after that I become very relaxed and the pleasant bodily feelings start.

Hi Kajenx,

This sounds very good. The fact that subsequent to that experience your meditation has completely changed, demonstrates that it was a breakthrough, rather than a one-off jolly.

After sitting with those feelings for a bit, they'll usually take off into mind and body euphoria (piti? sukha?). I've had two different things happen after that. One will be a sinking feeling as the euphoria seems to taper off (this reminds me very much of how the stages of Jhana are supposed to go) and this sinking feeling can end in a kind of complete emotionlessness, or it fades back to normalcy before it gets all the way there.

Jhana is dynamic, contrary to what some sources claim. Powerful bliss emerges in second jhana but it becomes a burden in itself. In the sutta I linked previously, there is the phrase "he discerns that there is an escape beyond this." This is where you run up against that which is hemming in your expanding consciousness. It's a kind of barrier and when you get there you can experience "nimitta" (some kind of odd sign that something is imminent). Generally this is described as a kind of light but this is only one possibility. There are also "feeling nimita" which manifest physically...

The other thing that can happen after the peak is the euphoria turns into a very bizarre buzzing and my eyes start to vibrate very quickly. It puts me in mind of a black hole sucking you in, maybe?

Perhaps the buzzing you are feeling is something of this kind? The "black hole" will suck you in. You move into it and through it. A very apt description.

I've had some of these stages happen independent of mediation as well. The emotionless/empty feeling has just kind of happened a few times without any catalyst - though I should say that I've been paying close attention to my mental states and trying to remove judgments from them, so this might be a kind of meditation anyway.

Yes it is. It can even happen when you are walking around and begins to increasingly happen outside of formal meditation. Your mind will unbind (of itself) and your consciousness will expand into space. This is the self-liberation of thoughts we hear of in some Buddhist schools, or the dissolution of Shakti into Paramashiva, as in Spanda Shaivism. You can feel the difference between the contracted state of your mind (obsessing over some crap) and the expansive state, which is blissful, empty, clear and incomparable.

It's not enlightenment, or liberation of itself, but it points the way towards it.

The buzzing has happened a few times when I've been laying in bed - actually just last night I was laying there, and I had the feeling that I was aware of my skull (if that makes sense, lol!) and I was moving my jaw and thinking about how the bones and skin are very odd. I felt kind of like I was inside of the skull or something. That's when the buzzing started and I felt a bit like I was being sucked down a drain.

Very much like a nimitta. You could be very close to another experience. Don't let it faze you, or excite you, just carry on observing it as if it has got nothing whatsoever to do with you.

Sorry to go into all the gory details, haha, but I just find all of this very interesting.

The gory details are where it's at. Without them, there is no way of conveying your experience in a meaningful way.

Go for it and don't let anyone talk you down. Be guided by your experience, not by expectations of any kind.

The real challenge is to be exactly where you are right now (even if that be sheer boredom) and move or not according to conditions that only continually change.

Perfect.

So many good points mentioned on this thread.

Not crossing the line, (or fearfully rejecting the force on the opposite side), in order to transform that potential, is the hardest balancing act of them all and one which draws neither sympathy nor understanding. Flinch, and you enter the vortex of habituation - Maya's bondage.

The transmutation of the lower into the higher, requires nutriment drawn from the subterranean roots of the lower. It's the fuel of growth which also has the potential to consume us in turn.

One must needs lick honey off the razor's edge.

SEEKING BUT NOT FINDING THE RECLUSE

Under pines
I ask the boy;

he says: "My Master's gone
to gather herbs.

I only know
he's on this mountain,

but the clouds are too deep
to know where."

Jia Dao (Chia Tao)(c.779-843) translated by Mike O'Connor

To allow the monks peace and quiet and a spiritual environment away from the busy distractions of the world. Many monasteries were built where solitary hermits used to hang out. As disciples gathered, and time passed, structures were added. The sites were considered holy or blessed - places of special energy etc.

Buddhism is imperfect (especially Theravada) as in it implies everyone has Buddha's level when they first start

Where did you get that from?

almost immediately when I started, I had a blast of some kind of amazing euphoria, like waves of happiness and relief washing up and down my body. It was earth-shattering, to say the least, and I never would have believed it could be possible to feel that way. This feeling must have lasted around a minute, maybe less (I definitely wasn't paying attention to the time ^^) and then it sort of spread out into an effortless awareness, and I just sat on my couch, staring at things in my room, wondering what the hell had just happened, haha. It was later at night when I'd sat to meditate, so that state of mind lasted for the rest of the few hours I stayed up, and then I went to bed. I even did my exercise routine and was just fascinated by everything I felt.

Hi Kajenx,

Has your subsequent meditation, since that incident improved or changed in any way?

the methods people talk about to get into jhana are very foreign to me.

There's a real divergence of opinion out there as to what constitutes first jhana. You need to look closely at One After Another as they occurred. This is the best description I've ever read for the stages of jhana. You can see that at no point is anyone 'zoning out' or swooning into unconsciousness, so you can ignore those who claim jhana = oblivion with no awareness and only knowledge of it when you subsequently arise out of it.

When I meditate, I basically just sit down and try to let go of everything. If I have a thought or a feeling, I step out of it and watch it, and then let it go, or stay, whatever - we're supposed to be natural and accepting, right? Lol.

This is an excellent method to attain jhana. It's called awareness release it combines nicely with a slight awareness of how the breath affects the body - movement etc. It also works on its own too.

But the Buddhists all talk about focusing on the breath and trying to increase concentration by stopping their thoughts and outside distractions, and I don't feel like this could apply to what I'm doing at all - this is actually the method I used to see suggested the most on meditation websites/books, but it never felt very good to me.

Some Buddhist do but there's a lot of misunderstanding out there. "Forcing" anything is wrong. Awareness of breath has no element of compulsion or desire for any outcome.

I feel like when I sit down I do the exact opposite of concentrate...

Right again. The word "concentrate" carries all the wrong connotations. It is awareness (vipassana) which notes what is happening in an impartial non-judgmental way. And release of all stress and tension which will take you deeper into tranquility (samatha). The two are dual components of the same process. Not separated out, like some insist.

I've never felt like my thinking stopped at any point during meditation

Thoughts don't cease until 2nd Jhana. See the sutta I linked to.

It's always when I find myself "letting go" the most that it's the most successful too,

Yeah. That's the one.

There was a week or so after the first event when I was trying really hard to get the feeling back, and I kept trying to force it when I'd sit. Sometimes it kind of worked but felt...tainted?

Yes because your ego is tainting it. The ego wants control of everything. Don't let it near your practice.

I might be doing some kind of insight meditation? I really don't have any idea, but it seems to be working - whatever it might be, haha...

Yes, the insight component is provided by your awareness. If you didn't have this you would sink into a dull torporific state, or blank out, like in deep sleep.

I haven't got a clue about Taoist levels, so I can't comment there.

It all sounds very positive. I'd keep on letting go in the way you have done so far.

Thank you for speaking up, YY24.

That's fine. As far as I'm concerned, people who openly declare sutra to be "nursery bs" are not vajrayanists - although they like to present themselves as such. If they have ever taken tantric vows at all, then they are no longer bothering to uphold them on this forum.

So why should I have any confidence in anything they say?

I'm not a Dzogchenpa, so I keep an open mind on this whole jax business. I'll investigate and draw my own conclusions. But "innocent until proven guilty" I reckon.

Its like some pattern, or some kind of oath these guys have taken to try to shut others down.

Yes, it bears all the hallmarks of a coordinated action. The SWAT Team has landed.

Looks like a must-have. I'm currently reading

The Tibetan Yogas Of Dream And Sleep

Very impressive it is too.

The highest are termas.

That'd be Dzogchen termas I guess?

Because it is based on tantras, has empowerments etc.

Would you reckon that Dzogchen tantras are superior to non-Dzogchen Vajrayana ones?

Of course Dzogchen is Buddhadharma.

 

What kind of question is that?

 

Dzogchen, is a part of Vajrayana from the viewpoint of classification. But in terms of path, its a different path than Vajrayana.

Why is Dzogchen classified as Vajrayana. I mean there's no generation/completion stage. No 6 yogas etc. It's a whole different ball game.

Fine. No problem. !!!!!

 

Gelugpas don't teach Dzogchen though, which is my main interest.

Which brings me to my next question. Would you say that Dzogchen = Vajrayana or even Buddhism?

By the way, lineage means authorized to teach.

 

If you are not authorized to teach, you have no lineage.

So, what if someone found an authorized teacher from the lineage of Tsongkhapa?

"It was as if my life was like a bubble/sphere of expanding creation and I was outside, empty of self looking at it without any sense of self."

Nice one - your awareness stepped outside it.

Source-DW.

 

Here we have an example of typical twisted new age bullshit of someone who thinks they can improve dzogchen by mixing traditions and various other religious views and who in the same time think that what Jax does is all good and makes perfect sense.

And all we know about you is that you think sutra is "bs".

A Vajrayana teacher must be authorized to teach.

What about authorized Vajrayana teachers who follow Tsongkhapa's lineage? Are they any good? Just wondering.