forestofemptiness

9 hours ago, snowymountains said:

haven't watched what you guys are discussing but an fyi, Leigh Brassington does not teach exactly canon jhana work. I hear he is excellent at what he teaches/works on btw (no direct affiliation).

Leigh B teaches more sutta jhana as opposed to visuddhimagga jhana, so it is canon just not in subsequent commentary.
 

https://www.leighb.com/jhanantp.htm

 

On 5/30/2024 at 7:56 AM, SirPalomides said:

I do find more satisfying than the usual Madhyamaka explanations,

 

I'd be curious if you wished to expand on this. I find Chinese presentations compelling, but often obscured by jargon and a lack of oral instruction. I've been checking out this book and like what I'm seeing so far. 

 

Interesting point that inverts from Advaita when talking about the perceiver: 

 

"In fact, all experience requires change; nothing constant would be experienced at all, since to experience any content requires contrast, and no self is conceiveable apart from experience." (p.33 in my Everand edition)

 

This is the mirror image of Advaita teachings, which state that one cannot know change unless contrasted against an unchanging background. 

 

 

 

8 hours ago, stirling said:

At the same time, it is good to reinforce that intellectual understanding of Nagarjuna is not seeing the actual Prajna of enlightened mind to a student, in my opinion. The internet is full of people arguing the dharma and getting nowhere. For me, that is a difficult thing to watch. 

 

One reason you see a lot of this is that it is generally forbidden in Vajrayana circles to openly discuss experiential teachings--- (assuming these are even being taught--- I've heard this is not common). Part of this is due to the lack of context, skills, etc. Additionally, the mind has a tendency to create and/or cling to various objects, gross or subtle. 

 

There is no such restriction on discussing non-Vajrayana teachings, such as Madhyamaka. In my experience, it is usually Vajrayana students getting into lengthy online emptiness polemics and quote battles, which is ironic given emptiness teachings. But I think at the end of the day, folks are working through their karma.  

15 hours ago, stirling said:

I guess it must be happening occasionally?

 

I am skeptical. But I have an old school definition of enlightenment, as opposed to the folks you regularly encounter on say, BATGAP (not saying this applies to anyone here specifically, just making a general statement). 

 

I practiced in the Zen world for some years, mostly in the Katagiri line. One issue I had was that when I had an intellectual concern, I was always told to ignore it, repress it, or set it aside. Sometimes I would get an unsatisfying answer. One story I heard is that Katagiri Roshi went to a students house, and she wanted to show him her collection of dharma books. He looked at it, laughed, and said, "Oh, no, a really big problem!"

 

But for me, if the thinking mind wasn't on board, the practice doesn't follow. I had intellectual knots that could only be undone intellectually. Now of course, the Tibetans tend to go overboard on that side, and the teachings can often dry out and become rote, so to speak, as they become distanced from first hand experience. 

 

It sounds positive that you've agreed to the teacher role--- just my (very unpopular) opinion but I think Soto Zen needs more teachers who seem to have actually realized something.  

 

 

11 hours ago, dwai said:

Sounds great  

 

It is also a bit destabilizing. Another reason to work with people and traditions--- they provide a solid anchor for destabilizing periods. 

 

But the interesting point you bring up here is what is lost--- the diverse feelings of times and places. If a concert at Red Rocks has the same underlying current as an ancient Church in Rome, have you gained or lost? If you go to the concert for the people buzz, and the Church for the sacred space vibe, then you've definitely lost something. Or perhaps that is the cost of increased equanimity? 

 

6 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

I know what you mean, but feel that I'm going to opposite way--- space(s) is (are) appearing more similar.

 

Sort of like an undercurrent of a pleasant, vivid, semi-lucid dream. 

 

I know what you mean, but feel that I'm going to opposite way--- space(s) is (are) appearing more similar.

16 hours ago, stirling said:

It is tough to talk about since every discussion of just what or how these things are will be wrong, since conceptually discussions tend to focus on individual features of the topic, and it is so much broader. Really only experiential gnosis can be counted on, as Nagarjuna reminds us:

 

That's true, but it is very rare for some one to "get it" right away. If there wasn't, the would dispense with relative, conventional teachings but they do not. 

 

Nagarjuna also states (MMK XXIV:10): 

 

Quote

Without a foundation in the conventional truth, The significance of the ultimate cannot be taught. Without understanding the significance of the ultimate, Liberation is not achieved.

 

As Ju Mipham put forth in the Sword of Wisdom: 

 

Quote

 

46. The absolute as well has its two aspects:
Categorized and uncategorized conceptually,
And then to evaluate them, two types of validity
For looking into what is ultimately true.

 

47. It is by relying on the former that one reaches the latter.
Like impaired vision that is healed and made pure,
When the eye of valid cognition is fully developed,
The truth of purity and equalness can be seen.

 

 

Nature of mind teachings are precise and it is easy to make mistakes as I know from experience (unless one is immediately enlightened upon pointing out, which is very, very, very rare). Letting go is harder than it sounds IME. Different people have different points of clinging, which is why Vajrayana (and Vedanta) is so vast in my opinion. Our perception literally needs to be refined in many cases. 

 

16 hours ago, stirling said:

Glad to see another Vajrayana practitioner! I am originally from the Dudjom Tersar lineage of Nyingma via Ngakpa Chogyam (Aro Ter), Gyatrul Rinpoche, and Tharchin Rinpoche. Are you also a Nyingmapa?

 

No, all of my Vajrayana teachers are Rime and experientially based (being in the lineage of Changchub Dorje and Tulku Urgyen). I don't identify with any tradition in particular, or any conclusion. 

 

There was a well known Dzogchen teacher who I saw some years ago. He said when some one asked if he realized rigpa, he said "I don't know," and seemed sincere. Initially, I thought this was a weakness, but as it turns out, it is a strength.  

 

1 hour ago, Apech said:

With the greatest respect because I’ve been there - but I feel madyamika just leads to this kind of formulation which is ultimately meaningless.  

 

I'm sorry it didn't work for you, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work for anyone, ever. 

 

Our experiences are clearly different, and that's ok. As I've said before, feel free to disagree. 

1 hour ago, stirling said:

What "we" actually ARE is this "emptiness"/awareness, so "we" also are omnipresent. This is of course a conceptual description lacking massive amounts of nuance and depth of understanding. 

 

While I agree with much of this post, I think this is a common misunderstanding from a typical Kagyu/Nyingma Buddhist perspective in my experience. This is a common question or suggestion I've seen posed to many teachers and every one of them rejected it. 

 

Everything is empty, i.e. it lacks a unitary, independent, permanent self or essence, but not everything is aware. Classic examples are pots and pillars. A pot is empty of a unitary, independent, permanent "pot nature," but we would not say that it is therefore aware. Further, specific to Nyingma based Dzogchen teachings, emptiness is generally considered a non-affirming negation, a minus without a plus. So when we say X is empty, it doesn't not mean that we are asserting anything positive about X. 

 

Of course, one is free to disagree with this perspective. 

 

 

 

 

On 5/25/2024 at 3:28 PM, old3bob said:

can only be pointed to with say a map if that is what you mean?

 

I would say that a proper conceptual understanding can be a precursor to a proper non-conceptual realization, but one is always free to disagree. Typically, we start with conceptual thinking, because that is where most of us are. Next, we replace concepts that are not aligned with the way things are with concepts that are better aligned. Of course, no concept will ever capture it, but some do a better job of leading than others, the same way that using earthly objects can guide one's attention to a faint star in the sky. Finally, we hopefully leap from the proper conceptual to the proper non-conceptual. In other words, leading one from the unreal to the real. 

 

But feel free to frame it however you want.

2 hours ago, steve said:

That’s the thing about reality, acceptance doesn’t matter.

 

This is one of the things I like least about reality. Terribly inconvenient. 

 

55 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

nature of reality

 

I'm not really sure what people mean about reality since it hasn't been defined. In some circles, it tends to mean permanence and independent. Many of the observations here support the illusory nature of reality in this sense, although this appears to be the unpopular opinion in this forum. 

37 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

well its close but not really, in reality (hehe) it is being-non-being or substantial-not substantial

https://hinduism.stackexchange.com/questions/28342/what-exactly-is-sat-asat

which makes sense. if something is not real then how come we even talk about it?

 

Shankara evidently thought this was a sloppy dichotomy, so he developed the idea of mithya as a bridge. 

 

13 hours ago, Apech said:

Indisputably real. 

 

This is a great question for investigation. What does "real" feel like? What is the basis for designation of "real"? What would an illusory tree feel like? How should a tree feel if it wasn't real? 

 

The other day, I was touching a mirror with my fingers as a dream state reality check. It was reflective, resistant to my fingers, smooth, and solid to the touch. I tried to push my finger through it, but it didn't budge. It felt like many mirrors I had touched over the course of my life. But in this case, I was dreaming. 

 

5 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

nterestingly in buddhism there is no 'reality', not even a word for such. there are several dichotomies which are close like 'rupa-arupa' but 'real-unreal' is not a buddhist or indian ph. nomenclature

 

Sat/asat is usually used in the way we use "real" and "unreal" in my experience. 

 

 

3 hours ago, dwai said:

Tripura Rahasya has a very nice chapter on different types of jnanis. I have quoted from it on the “continuous samadhi” thread. There is no one-size-fits all, in that, after realization, there is no homogenization of the “individual”. 

 

In an interesting twist, the "momentary" samadhi is translated alternative as "the gap between thoughts" by another translator (although he translates nirdoha from the Yoga Sutras as mastery rather than cessation). The Tripura Rahasya is referred to as an Advaita text Maharshi recommended, but this seems very clearly to be a Tantric text in my opinion. 

 

 

15 hours ago, stirling said:

Yes, this was essentially MY first practice too, in the Nyingma/Dzogchen tradition. IMHO, it might be the most direct practice extant.

 

I would say it depends on the person. People are very different. This is one reason why traditions are so broad and have so many techniques, teachings, etc. One person's essential technique is another person's pitfall. 

 

I think one of the largest errors I've come across in the Western spiritual scene is a lack of teaching on errors, mistakes, and side paths.

 

17 hours ago, stirling said:

The Maharshi quote is an example of direct pointing, not necessarily the end of the path.

 

I don't know if it is even a Maharshi quote. As far as I know, he didn't speak English and most quotes come from translated transcripts of his oral teachings. I know that he, like others, initially was in the thought-free camp when he was younger but then become more relaxed about it later. In fact, that quote seems to come straight from the Advaita Bodha Deepika, which itself is a compilation text that was then translated. The status and necessity of nirvikalpa samadhi is hotly debated. But it is not clear to me whether ABD is referring to nirvikalpa samadhi or something else. 

 

But (with the above limits in mind), Ramana did not adopt this approach overall. In talk 54, he reportedly says:

 

"Even if one is immersed in nirvikalpa samAdhi for years together, when he emerges from it he will find himself in the environment which he is bound to have. That is the reason for the AchArya emphasising sahaja samAdhi in preference to nirvikalpa samAdhi in his excellent work vivekachUDAmaNi. One should be in spontaneous samAdhi - that is, in one's pristine state - in the midst of every environment."

 

https://www.advaita.org.uk/discourses/teachers/samadhi_ramana.htm#:~:text=Sri Ramana Maharshi puts it,the world is nirvikalpa samAdhi

 

I bring this up because there are famous, often quoted teachers with widely read English works that give misleading impressions that is often only corrected by oral teachings in person from these teachers or their direct disciples. Even written teachings leave a lot of out that is explained and clarified in person. 

 

17 hours ago, dwai said:

Please elaborate if you can - we're interested.

 

Sure, but keep in mind anything I say is only partial, limited, etc.  

 

Free of thought means a state where subtle visuals, sounds, feelings, and so on do not arise. Often referred to as a state of stillness. 

 

Free from thought means that thoughts come and go, and we don't try to cling to them or push them away. This referred to as movement. 

 

In some teachings, stillness= good and movement = bad. Accordingly, we should extend stillness and eliminate movement. The goal would be to have a vacant mind, free of thought. Even better if we can reach a state in which there are no appearances. The best of all is dying and then continuing in that type of state forever. 

 

Others disagree and state that movements and appearances are expressions of the divine. Not only that, but stillness and movement are not really two different things, and the underlying stillness is never really lost. The goal in this case is to stop getting confused by and entangled in thoughts and appearances, not in eliminating them in some way. Once unentangled, unobstructed divine expression manifests spontaneously and unimpeded. 

 

As Thrangu Rinpoche put it:

 

"It’s quite easy to think that the resting mind and the moving mind have completely different natures, and that when the mind is moving, the stillness has been lost. Some students think that they must clear away the movement before the mind can be at rest. They believe that there is a contradiction between the mind at rest and the mind in motion. In fact, both the resting mind and the moving mind are the union of emptiness and luminosity. We perceive differences due to our confusion. Stillness does not obstruct motion and motion does not obstruct stillness. They are simply one inseparable entity."

 

 

Hui neng (Platform Sutra trans Red Pine): 

"Deluded people who cling to the external attributes of a dharma get hold of One Practice Samadhi and just say that sitting motionless, eliminating delusions, and not thinking thoughts are One Practice Samadhi. But if that were true, a dharma like that would be the same as lifelessness and would constitute an obstruction of the Way instead. The Way has to flow freely. Why block it up? The Way flows freely when the mind doesn’t dwell on any dharma. Once it dwells on something, it becomes bound. If sitting motionless were right, Vimalakirti wouldn’t have criticized Shariputra for meditating in the forest."

 

AND 

 

"And what do we mean by ‘no-thought’? The teaching of no-thought means to see all dharmas without being attached to any dharma, to reach everywhere without being attached anywhere, to keep your nature pure, so that when the Six Thieves pass through the Six Gates, they neither avoid nor are corrupted by the Six Realms of Sensation but come and go freely. This is the samadhi of prajna. Freedom and liberation constitute the practice of no-thought. But if you don’t think any thoughts at all, the moment you make your thoughts stop, you’re imprisoned by dharmas. We call this a ‘one-sided view.’"

 

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

Of course, no practice enlightens. Confusing a practice with illumination is problematic, but to practice by resting in awareness, where the mind is empty and still, IS cessation (nirodha), the 3rd Noble Truth. As Dogen would say:

 

There is a very large difference between being free from thought, and being free of thought. At least in some traditions. 

1 hour ago, stirling said:

Honestly, I’m not sure what you mean by “essence“ or “function“ in this case. Could you elaborate? 🙏

 

Once when all the monks were out picking tea leaves the Master addressed Yangshan: "All day as we were picking tea leaves I have heard your voice, but I have not seen you yourself. Show me your original self."

Yangshan thereupon shook the tea tree.

The Master: "You have attained only the function, not the substance."

Yangshan: "I do not know how you yourself would answer the question."

The Master was silent for a time.

Yangshan: "You, Master, have attained only the substance, not the function."

Master Guishan: "I absolve you from twenty blows!"

22 hours ago, stirling said:

A nice example:

 

 

Mic drop!

 

So all essence, no function? 

10 hours ago, Nintendao said:

 

Aw i'm sure there's plenty of Vedic referential integrity, I'm just relatively useless at Sanskrit, so indulged in relying on Yogapedia 

 

Of course, Sanskrit is one of the most precise, well defined languages, and Vedanta is one of the most conservative and intellectually rigorous spiritual traditions. I think TT is just engaging in a bit of spiritual fascism or is joking. The only comparable language and widespread spiritual tradition I am aware of is Judaism and Hebrew. The Tibetan Buddhists come as a close second, since their language over time has been molded by Buddhism. 

 

 

3 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

maybe he should, but he wonders what good will possibly come out of it?

One might argue: 

 

Isn't it about saving all sentient beings, not a personal, transactional relationship?  How could someone who possess such art have any need for goodwill? And imagine how one could destroy all the fake, seminar-selling pseudo-Daoists by exposing the actual information? And if it's truly self-secret, then what harm can come?

 

Although, most people probably won't go for it if they have to give up wine, sex, and meat. 

 

 

 

There has been some work done about Dzogchen and Chan by Sam van Schaik, but he doesn't concur with the Chan influence theory. I believe he has updated this in his Tibetan Zen book, but here is an old article in which he suggests the influence may have gone the other way: 

 

https://www.academia.edu/34502820/Dzogchen_Chan_and_the_Question_of_Influence

 

The Shaivism - Buddhist connection is summarized here by Wallis:

 

http://www.sutrajournal.com/the-tantric-age-a-comparison-of-shaiva-and-buddhist-tantra-by-christopher-wallis

 

It is clear that there was interplay between China and Tibet, and between Buddhism  and Shaivism. 

 

What I find odd is hearing a lot of overlap between a range of Tibetan Buddhist practices (including deity yoga) and Advaita Vedanta via Swami Sarvapriyananda's oral lectures. There is also a lot of overlap with Shaivism and Shaivism provides some answers to things that aren't entirely clear in the Tibetan context. This suggests to me a common source, and if I had to speculate, I think the common source in Indian Tantra as opposed to Chinese influences. But I haven't really studied it since the practice is more important than the history. 

 

However, there are some similarities between some of these practices and Daoist practices as well, particularly as related to body/energy practices. My experience is that the "secrets" of Daoist practices tend to be close held and even when disclosed, tend to be to full time practitioners. 

 

 

 

 

The basic difference in my experience is that in Mahamudra, step by step meditation precedes the view whereas in Dzogchen, the view is introduced and is the meditation. There are also techniques unique to each, and ideas are transmitted with different models depending on the specific school, teacher, etc. Both have been highly flavored by the monastic, Tantric Tibetan culture in my opinion. 

 

4 hours ago, Apech said:

it is part of a general theory of mine which is that the Chinese influence on Tibetan Buddhism has been downplayed - also having read Olivia Kohn’s ‘ sitting in oblivion’ there is a strong Daoist/ Buddhist crossover which I think works both ways.

 

I'll have to check it out. It seems there are a lot of parallels with Vedanta and Shaivism, and Chinese Chan. I'm curious to what the Daoist influences might be. 

 

3 hours ago, Apech said:

My current view for what it is worth is that Dzogchen and Mahamudra derive from Zouwang.

 

 

Why is that? Genuinely curious.