11:33

*bump*

solxyz,

Is it overly simplistic to say an orange is a fruit, or a cat is a small furry animal? Ultimately you are gonna have to experience something to really know what it is. The words will never capture the reality of qi.

However, I notice a lot of people seem to have not experienced qi. If you experience it then you know from personal experience that it is energy that flows through you, like electricity through a wire.

And what do you feel? Warmth, circulation, a magnetic pull? Can't all those easily be attributed to the increase in circulation (from breathing) caused by Qigong practices?

Besides what you mentioned i can feel a lot of energy at the baihui and can feel energy flowing along my meridian somewhat like water. I can direct my energy to different parts of my body at will. I have felt at times particular meridians more strongly, usually when it is being cleared.

Yes they do.

Qi is life force energy.

Science doesn't need to get a grasp of it to understand it. We can't grasp gravity but we understand it. In fact we can't grasp much at all. Can't grasp heat, light, electricity or the mind, but we can study them with the scientific method.

Michael, exactly.

Hey man I am all for reason but not at the cost of intuition. I am quoting you. You said that you can feel qi pretty much the way chinese medicine describes it in another thread. I do not agree you cannot always confirm intuition with reason, it has it's limitations. And to rely soley on reason fly's in the face of daoist philiosophy and spirituality in general. Reason is addictive and can steal your soul if you let it. I know I have been there and lost it to the realm of science and reason before. It took quite a emotional shock to get it back. My point with the chi and chinese medicine. These people have studied this phenomena for thousands of years devoting lives and genarations to it. Lets just say that some type of chi is found, What if its an incopmlete picture and chi manifest itself in a different form and has effects that we again cant measure. Instead of relying ONLY on a science that is still ian infant to catch up wht not accept what has been percieved over thousands of years? It makes no sense to me. You accept it or you do not. Everyone is treathing the sceientific method as if it has dibs on everything. yeah sure it can make a computer because it is a machine that must and can be reduced to its indivdual components. The body is NOT in anyway the same thing. the universe is not either. science is good at making things and understanding how material things function "as individual components.. Qi as it has always been said is etherial nad integral. Anyway I guess it just really does not make much sense to me. Why so called daoist want to separate chi and reduce it to its small components. Some things are about art.

I don't agree with this: "I do not agree you cannot always confirm intuition with reason"

I also think you have some kind of contorted idea of what science means. Science means the application of the scientific method. Nothing more.

It's cool.

If you were considering spending $39000 on school you might ask some questions too. It's always a simpler matter when you don't have a much on the line.

You're mentioning a bunch of stuff about qi that's not really important. I just would like to hear about science and Chinese Medicine. Qi exists != Chinese Medicine works well. There's sooooo much to Chinese Medicine.

Anyhow, I've taken 松永道's experience into account; duly noted.

I wonder what you have against the scientific method. To me it is merely the crystalization of the same logical reasoning processes I use on a daily basis. I've got a ton of respect for the scientific method. You may not, but I suspect you really just don't respect the stupid scientists. I wade through science, I don't just take it on face value. I like to look into the studies to see if they make sense to me. I like it. And I'm selfish like that.

Peace.

Just my 2 cents:

The phrase "creating gaps in thought" seems strange. There are already gaps between thoughts. Perhaps just relax into those gaps, and enjoy them, and see them grow longer over time?

It won't happen. Freedom reigns.

Dude if you can feel the chi in your body the way that chinsese medicince describes it then why do you doubt it? Either you are crazy or its real. I guess that's for you to decide. You are letting your mind an heart go to war over what the science is saying and what your heart knows to be true. TONS of people visit chinese doctors and chinese doctors themselves devote their lives to it. Do you think that many of these doctors and patients care about what western science is telling them? Also do you think that ALL these first hand stories we hear about are fake? Like the story from the person on this thread. EVEN if you somehow got this "concrete proof" you are searching for it would be pointless as the only way that you could practically practice the ART and understand the diagnostic process would be through the ancient discription. Hence what is it that you are searching for?. QI is its own science. A science of feeling, percieving, understanding nature on a deeper level that is thousands of years old, hence it will have it's power and weaknesses in the modern world, But it is WHAT it is. I guess you are going to have to decide where your loyalty lies. With your belly and heart or your mind.

I wish you luck

Feeling qi doesn't mean that every aspect of Chinese Medicine is accurate!

My loyalty lies with reason. Because the belly can always be confirmed with reason. So there's no real reason to rely strictly on intuition.

It works, but not always.

Consider that no drug can do better than that.

 

People use acupuncture for anesthesia in many areas, for surgery and dental work. You can't do this if it is fake.

 

The explanations given for why it works are often silly. Who cares why when what matters is that it does work for many people.

The explanation is only silly if you have some doubt about the flow of qi through the meridians.

But to me it working for anesthesia is not what Chinese Medicine is billed as. It's billed as a complete system of rebalancing the body to recover and prevent man, many, many diseases.

Well for me, the thing is, I don't want to commit to a long training if it doesn't work, lol.

Hey so I thought since we have such a nice thread going about qigong and science it would be nice to start a similar thread about Chinese Medicine and Acupuncture.

See, I have wanted to possibly go to school to become a Chinese Doctor, but I'm not even sure it works! Do any of you have experience treating any diseases with Chinese Medicine / Acupuncture? And, more importantly, do any of you have information about research in the Chinese Medicine / Acupuncture field(s)?

froggie,

be careful about info on any site that is selling you products. Look for points of viw that go against what they are saying on that sire, then compare and contrast. I always consider "information" from merchant sites to be extremely suspect. It doesn't mean it is necessarily wrong, but you really need to look somewhere else to find out the truth.

Good luck.

Josh, if we're going to imitate the way nature spews out stuff so natural selection can weed out the crappy species, let's do it right now. Let's just weed the messed up ones and NOT EAT THEM.

I guess that is what laws are supposed to be there for.

As is your brief post above merely opinion as well. Why post your post? Just to say that my opinion was opinion?

 

You think it is opinion that I had a friend take their own life? if I offended you so that you seek to discredit what i say then I am sorry. what other reason do you have for such comments?

 

I certainly don't see any of my posts as long. But that is my opinion.

Why do I post? Because I felt like it. Simple. Any explanation beyond that and it gets murky.

You didn't offend anyone.

It's all relative. A long earth worm is a short snake.

Opinion is everywhere. Everyone is entitled to one. The tricky part is when you start to think yours has any more merit than someone else's.

Josh,

With all do respect your entire post is filled with opinion. Just a loooooonnnnnggg opinion. Some people like oranges, some people like papayas, some people don't lie either, some people like both.

Josh,

You make good points. It's a conundrum. How to have business operate efficiently, while also, having the Whole operate efficiently? I guess that is what laws are supposed to be there for.

I believe studies have shown that animals fed Genetically Modified foods have not been as healthy as animals fed normal food.

We in the US grow up with this sort of idea that the "bad" stuff of history is behind us. Humans from "history" were crazy and a bunch of nut jobs, but now we'rein a age of sanity.

It's really just a way we psychologically protect our selves. The world is f-ing crazy guys. Really crazy. Horrors abound on planet Earth.

11:33,

 

I get the feeling I'm being set up here, but I'll take the bait anyway to see where you are going with this.

 

First off, nobody has a confirmed, documented case of detecting chi directly with an instrument in controlled conditions. That itself puts into question the transmission of chi. But lets assume that someone can transmit chi for the sake of arguement, and that the detectors just can't pick it up, or that they are using the wrong type of detector.

 

If masters can transmit chi, then all I can do is speculate until proper controlled experiments were devised. If you want me to list possibilities, it could be infrared radiation, microwaves, a simple direct transmission of electrical current from one person to another or any combination of these. Remember a moving current will always produce radiation. It might not be any of these at all, I'm just throwing ideas around here.

No setup. Just trying to understand where you are coming from. In my experience the theory of chi matches my experience of chi. I have had energy transmitted to me. You can feel it hit you like waves of water. Not just feel it, but FEEL it powerfully.

What do you think of the studies posted above on Yan Xin?

Jakara,

Before I respond, how does your idea of what chi is explain chi transmission? Like out of the hands, or fingers?

Jakara,

What about the 2000 year old theory of chi is not accurate in your assessment? I tried to express to you that from my experience I don't see any sign that the 2000 year old theory is false. In what specific points do you see a divergence from what is real and what is inaccurate.

Also, what is your experience hands on with chi?

and there is no physcal evidence for it at all other than a few guys getting hot and healthier when they do exercise.

There are people who have more physical evidence for qi than this. For example, I feel all day like I am getting my head massaged or shampooed. This is because my baihui is open. That isn't something that can be explained by the above sensations of feeling healthier and hotter. There are other sensations that also don't fit the standard model, like feeling flowing water through me along different channels. I can feel it, so it isn't just some "idea" like it seems you are suggesting.

It may be that it is something we in the Western model don't understand yet, but its definitely beyond an idea.