luke643

So, I am getting married in a few months, and in the process of writing out the invitations I came across (on several sites) a quote attributed to Laozi and the Dao de jing, but it is (as far as my scouring of the book can tell) most certainly NOT from that book. Anybody have a clue as to the roots of this quote:

Words have divided man from woman,

one from another, this from that,

until only sages know how to put things together.

Without words, without even understanding,

lovers find each other.

... The moment of finding is always a surprise,

like meeting an old friend never before known.

It is the part starting with "without words" that is sliding around the internet the most.

Any help would be appreciated.

The numbers say something about where you came from (birth year, date, time), where you have been (cycles of your life, and how the five elements, 10 stems and 12 branches have effected it) and where you are going (what is happening NOW and how will you act within the Dao to move through your progression in life).

Using astrology for divination is therefore very tricky, because the progression of your life is as important to where you will go as that initial reading under your birthdate. Your choices are vital to what you WILL do, whether that is right or wrong in terms of what you SHOULD do can relate to your numerological and astrological readings, but a reading will only be suggestive.

hope this helps.

Didn't understand a word, sorry. But no problem.

 

Well of course there are different possibilities. It could be that the numbers say something about the future, or about the present/past, or that I really look for them, or that me looking for them causes them to occur.

 

Do you remember the Star Trek episode where Data gave himself in the past an unlikely amount of 3's by altering that time (or something like that)? I wonder whether the writer of that episode got the inspiration from thinking about numerology.

I've noticed that the digits 0,1,2...9 occur with amazing frequency, either alone or in groups of two, three, four or even more permutations and combinations.

 

Today I caught a bus with a 10 marked on the front. When I got off I was almost home! Last week I caught a 98 and the same thing happened.

 

What does it all mean?

 

Eh?

I think this is incredibly dangerous territory. and by dangerous I mean that the world provides us with infinite diversity of numbers, particularly on forums such as this! It is very tempting to confuse coincidence and chaos with fate and order.

sorry for that overbearing-ish bit, here is some of what I know on numerology:

the websites and such are tricky, and modern astrology does not always produce the same information as classical astrology (Huangdi Neijing and Yi Jing based). The first thing you should do is not look for number patterns on forums or other external areas, but focus inward.

Numerology is directly tied in to what is called the Stems and Branches theory - a sequence of 10 celestial stems and 12 terrestrial branches. This theory provides a framework for every day of the year. Then, guided by the five elements, we can build a framework for consecutive years. Lastly, cycled into the equation is a series of 8 "palaces" which are structured around a central "palace" which itself is based on your birth year (total of 9). The palaces (wealth, prosperity, love, health, travel, wisdom, vocation, support) bring the stems and branches theory back into the self. Asking the question - what is MY progression through life?

that's all I got so far, have to write a paper for class now.

I did not say there is no relationship, I said Ming Men Xue and Ming Men are 'not the same thing'.

Ask somebody who can feel and see both and you will know.

Better yet, practice until you can feel and see them for yourself

 

YM

With all due respect, this was a pedantic reply, wrapped carefully around an admission that you agree with me somewhat.

I prefer not to talk about my own practice any further then saying I am an acupuncturist and a practitioner of daoist cultivation techniques for some years now. your suggestion to ask others or practice on my own are a bit confusing, for I do not know when it was that I suggested I did or did not have experience in these areas. I actually assumed that writing about it meant to others on the forum that I did have requisite experience enough to converse on the subject.

I don't mind having this other conversation, but I was actually looking for a translation of the Xiuzhen Tu, so...if anybody has a lead on that I would appreciate it!

all the best,

luke

Of course they are related ; in fact , the hidden behind pre-heavenly qi is basis of the post-heavenly qi flowing in the meridians, which, enables the acupuncture doctors manipulate it to cure diseases. But in most cases, acupuncture doctors do not know pre-heavenly qi , some even do not practice qigong and experience post-heavenly qi themselves.

 

The difference of qi on these two levels is so great, in most cases, the abyss between them is nearly impassable ;

One of the reasons is that people do have recognition problem and mix them up . If they are so close and nearly the same , we can just rely on the acupuncture doctors to open all those critical gates in our body by using needles , why bother practicing qigong ourselves so laboriously?

 

Here, sensitive readers already sense one critical factor is missing ,i.e., the mind factor in the whole process...

 

In fact , there is no dantian without the intervention of our mind.

it sounds as if we are agreeing on this issue somewhat. I would like to point out that I never suggested acupuncture was a substitute for self-cultivation. It is one of the pillars of daoist health practice along with Daoyin, wuwei and taiji practices, dietary therapy, herbal medicine, and more recently Qigong and Tai Chi Chuan. To suggest that a casual visit to the acpuncturist is a substitute for personal cultivation is absurd, and I have not done that.

What I have said is that the practice of acupuncture and the practice of daoist self cultivation are inextricably linked.

No, they are not the same.

 

Ming Men is a cavity in chinese acupuncture and an 'area' in Daoist Cultivation.

They are not 'the same thing', at all

 

YM

I think we are dealing in shadows of meaning here.

Let's take ming men - as an "acupuncture" point it is located below the spinous process of the second lumbar vertebra. But working with this point is not about stimulating wei qi at the area of the spinous process of the second lumbar vertebra. It is, literally translated, the Life Gate. This implies that the point is a gateway, not a closed one, the character for men suggests an open passage. Deep to this gateway is the dan tian. Deep to this gateway is also the essential fire that first ignited upon birth, giving rise to the internal tree of life, whose branches represent each of the elements and inner organs, and whose furthest branches are the acupuncture "yuan" (source) points. The ming men is the gateway to the dan and to the essential fire. It is a point, it is the dan and it is the essential fire.

Therefore, using the Ming Men acupuncture point is always about these internal aspects. The intention of the physician is vital to the effective usage of the point. My friends, to separate meanings in daoist practice with meanings in acupuncture is anathema to effective practice in either modality. They are cut of the same cloth, and (to continue the metaphor) they are woven back together inextricably.

Certainly it is true that many TCM practitioners either willingly disregard, or were never properly educated about these aspects of Daoism and Medicine, but that does not mean that acupuncture points are not equivalent to so called daoist areas of the body.

That is really interesting. Your eyes have adjusted over the years, but when you meditate they re-adjust back to the original far sighted state.

Sounds like you have figured it out! no teas or alterations necessary.

Thanks Scotty, I'll be sure to look into it.

Thanks for these suggestions Jedi. I notice that when I keep my concentration on where my eyes are focussed, I stay in concentration better with the mantra. If I let my attention float away from my eyes, I start daydreaming and lose the mantra very quickly. When I pay attention to my eyes and where they are focussed, I get to the point where I feel I am on the verge of exploding in to bliss and my heart races and I get aroused .

This sounds like a good insight. I don't know if I feel like I'm disconnecting or not, when I'm concentrating on the mantra and I feel kind of like my body takes on more energy it feels different from waking life I guess.

That's cool, although I seem to concentrate on my eyes like I mentioned above. So my attention might already be there? Thoughts?

I'll have to check those videos out, thanks!

So I meditated tonight for 40 minutes using the IAM mantra, and I got the most out of it when I would focus my attention with my eyes like they were looking inward towards my brain, or focused a short distance away from my eyes or on my eyelids, I can't really tell. So I had a pretty good feeling meditation and after 40 minutes I didn't want to stop but I figured I should so I don't overdo it (didn't look at clock). So I finished and everything was blurry again. I wasn't worried, went into the other room to talk to my girlfriend and she was showing me some mosquito bites on her leg and I tried to focus and see them and I couldn't make them out at all (they were small mind you). So I thought to myself, MY GLASSES! Just so you guys know I don't wear glasses and have probably only worn them 10 times since I got them about 8 years ago. I'm far-sighted and don't need them to see, they are just a minor prescription. So anyway, I went and put them on and what do you know, I could see . So my analysis was that in my meditation since I am focusing my eyes inward, it shifts the focus of my eyes and it just takes a while for them to readjust to my normal state of focus outside of meditation.

 

Should I be focusing my eyes like this in the meditation? Does it put too much chi at my ajna chakra?

 

Thanks very much for the replies you guys have shared already, I appreciate it .

 

padge

People always mix up the acupuncture points in Acupuncture practice with those critical places/gates in

Taoist practice, and think that they are the same , which , can be very misleading .

 

The acupuncture points are always there; you can locate them , draw and pinpoint them on map/model .In fact, when you insert the needle precisely and skillfully into a point on human body , there is qi-feeling ,telling you undoubtedly the existence of qi . However, In Taoist practice , most crucial gates/places are not there , it is only after your practice having reached certain stage , they appear ; and, different levels will appear to you different things...

well, I haven't posted much, so I don't want to be contrary so early...but I don't quite agree.

The acupuncture points are equivalent, for example - Ming Men (acupuncture - now called Governing Vessel 4) is always ming men, self cultivation or needling. You are referring to its usage, which I agree is slightly different in acupuncture then in Daoist self cultivation. But the point is the same.

Additionally, you are making a syncretic error when you separate acupuncture from Daoist practice. Daoist practice is inextricably linked with acupuncture practice. The classics of acupuncture are housed in the same Canon, and work from the same precepts.

I hope I have not been too combative,

all the best,

Luke

Well, I read all the posts, and I thought I would bring it back to the beginning:

Does anybody have an english translation of the Xiuzhen Tu?

I have been working with Komjathy's Neijing Tu translation and commentary, which is excellent. I would get Catherine Despeux's book Taoisme et corps humaine - but it is out of print.

Hey folks, I am an acupuncture student (swedish institute) and soon to be history student (columbia). I am looking forward to talking with ya'all.