Iskote

On 4/2/2022 at 6:31 AM, DreamBliss said:

I wish to stand on my own, have my own space or place.

 

Best way to get on your way is to get a full time job. 

All the best. 

On 4/6/2022 at 1:50 PM, Cultivation1 said:

Hi everyone,

 

I’ve been meditating for two years, I for the first time went to a qigong school a few days ago. The person in charge who’s a member of a Taoist lineage said he could give me a microcosmic orbit transmission and that it would take 1 week to open.

 

Is there any potential downside to doing this ? By that I mean is it risky to open it in 1 week? Could a transmission give me energy with bad intention ? I don’t know anything about transmissions aside from that it’s sort of like pre programmed energy. I would love to hear your thoughts on this. 

 

Hello. I couldn't tell you if it might be good or not.  I would be interested to know who is this person and what specific Daoist lineage do they say they are from? Did they have any info about the lineage's history? How much do they charge for this? Did you decide to try it? If so, what were the results? 

 

 

55 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

 

Hmmm .... your example started off with YOU dropping the hammer on our feet  .... and summarised  with us 'being careful not to drop a heavy  hammer on our own feet' .   ?

 

Interesting .

 

Anyway,  why is the feeling of  pain the regulator of reality  ... when any feeling can be illusory as well ?

 

 

Regarding consensus reality , that's a better point .  I remember hearing a talk from a Buddhist monk on 'illusion and reality ' , afterwards I was talking to him and he again bought up the points he made in the talk . I mentioned the point about consensus reality  and he responded with  ;  " Well, ....  yes, there IS that too . "

 

 

 

 

 

One can muse about whether physical consensus reality is ultimately real or not, or whether our perception of physical reality is at all an accurate reflection of some 'absolute reality' or not; but, from a practical point of view, it is advisable to not drop a heavy hammer on your foot or walk off the edge of a high cliff.  I think that should be pretty clear.    Going from talking about whether what is shown in a video can be trusted or not (trusted in our consensus physical reality) to whether anything we perceive is ultimately trustworthy or not, is mixing apples and elephants.  Whether any given person can understand or accept that difference or not, is not really a concern for me, however.  

 

4 hours ago, silent thunder said:

For me it goes a level further.  Doubt is foundational in all.

Our own perceptual modeling is untrustworthy for accuracy and detail.

It is not the world, it is a recreation.  A story. 

 

 

13 minutes ago, Nungali said:

I was wondering when someone would bring that up .     Many a time on Daobums (and elsewhere) a discussion has been had about  if what we observe, in person, 'live' , with our senses is accurate, or indeed ,  'real' .

......   but some forget about this when discussing the veracity of  ' video' .

 

My opinion is we should strive to be practical.  If I drop a heavy hammer on your foot of both of you two, whether you are paying any attention or not when I do it, you will most likely immediately be yelping in pain (if you have any feeling at all in your feet) and both of you will likely experience some injury to your foot. When we are talking about physical effects in 'consensus reality' at the 'macro' level, methods can be used to determine if something actually 'physically'  happened or not,  and what the nature of that physical event was. That is the basis of the physical sciences, after all.  A person can philosophize all they want, and that's great, but being careful not to drop a heavy hammer on your foot or to not walk off the edge of a high cliff, is advisable.  

 

 

 

 

On 4/14/2022 at 2:50 PM, Shadow_self said:

 

Do you think any of the above is an acceptable as a form of evidence for such claims?

 

 

In and of itself, videos (and pictures) are not sufficient to be taken as solid evidence that some phenomenon is real. Aside from sleight of hand and similar physical tricks used by stage magicians and in movies, technology in the form of software and apps for editing and modifying videos and photos keeps improving, and is readily available to most anyone these days. We have been beyond the point of being able to trust videos and pictures alone, on their own, for quite a few years now. However, video evidence in conjunction with other forms of evidence which adds further support to what is shown in the video or photo can start to add more weight to what is shown. For example, statements from people who have witnessed it in person can start to add more weight to what is shown in video or in a picture if you have some way to reasonably judge the credibility and reliability of the witness or witnesses. Seeing such things yourself in person, can add even more weight to something being legit, but of course a crafty person can often easily fool many people that something is real when in fact it is a trick.

 

Also, in regards to stuff like 'empty force', some people are very suggestible and therefore it is very hard to rule out suggestibility (subject is unconsciously cooperating with the other person due to being very suggestible). For example, one 'empty force tai chi 'master' I visited in person in the past could make some of his students fall off balance by just waving his hands around, but it had no effect on me when he tried it on me, and I felt nothing at all when he waved his hands at me. I could only conclude that what was going on had more to do with suggestibility of some of his students than anything to do with qi. 

 

As an example of how further evidence on top of video evidence can potentially hold more weight, evidence wise, in the case of the late John Chang of mo pai, several westerners over the years have witnessed in person some of the things he could do and some made videos or wrote about it, and several have stated that they believe it was real. In my own case, I have personally witnessed in person some similar phenomena from a few other different qigong masters over the years, and I have no doubt that what I personally witnessed was legit, (feeling strong qi projected at me from a distance, feeling like I was being electrocuted when touched, and seeing telekinesis performed right in front of me just a few feet away), so my personal opinion is what John Chang showed in video clips is probably legit. That is just my opinion though, in the end. I have personally experienced and seen enough evidence of such things that I have no doubt that such things are legit phenomena, but the legit stuff seems to be fairly rare. Most of what you see on Youtube and similar though is likely fake, as most people posting such videos are either doing it as a joke, or they are seeking attention, or they are trying to make money from it on their monetized Youtube channel, or through some expensive 'online courses' or similar, since such types of videos tend to get large amounts of views and attract a lot of attention. So, within all the muck and mire of fake videos and photos and fake or self-deluded 'masters' out there, I have personally found that there are some real gems, although the gems are quite rare, and it can take a lot of time and effort to find the rare gems amidst all the mountains of muck.:) 

 

As an example of how easy it is to fool people with videos, the following video was made by some digital graphics arts students as a course project, and it fooled millions of viewers when it was first posted before the channel owners updated the video comments to explain that the video was not real, and was made as a digital graphics course project.  This video was made in 2012 by students! The technology for editing videos and photos has improved quite a bit since 2012, so just imagine how easily an experienced digital graphics arts person could fool people these days.  : 

Golden Eagle Snatches Kid - YouTube

 

P.S. How do I make a Youtube video show up here in a video player box, instead of just appearing as a link? 

 

On 4/8/2022 at 2:04 AM, Goldleaf said:

 

It can be a very fast process if someone practices high-level qi gong ))

 

Hello Goldleaf. What do you consider to be high level qigong? 

On 2/21/2022 at 9:33 PM, Mark Foote said:

Friend locked by the foot
that follows the vertebrae
held by the spirit
 

 

held by the spirit 
vivid illusions and dreams 
I ask, to what end? 
 

 

Quote

Honestly I'm of the mind that no one needs to have an explanation of "why" for something like this, it can be as simple as just they "not wanting to teach, and that's it". Because sometimes that is a valid answer ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Hi Shadao. IMO, I think the 'explanation' is obvious in this case, however.   Many Westerners will just not be able to fit well into such a very old style tradition. The world view and customs and behaviours and expectations are just too different. 

 

 

Quote

Money trumps honor in the view of most westerners, but there are the exceptions.

Isn't this how it tends to go with practically every other martial arts/system/belief/etc?

The promises of being able to surpass their peers through the help of the supernatural/paranormal, that is quite the old tale.

 

I think your statement that "Money trumps honor in the view of most westerners" is too much of a generalization, and could just as easily apply to many modern asian people as well.   That is not really related to the point I was making regarding how certain people who are very attracted to 'neigong' practices seem to be interested for all the wrong reasons, and legit teachers would likely avoid such types of people, whether they are from from the east or west. 

 

To address the original question in this thread, IMO, If some random person or persons are claiming to teach part or all of such a neigong system somewhere, where you pretty much must take their word for their 'credentials' and their various other claims, then that is not likely going to lead anywhere good.   If they are claiming to have 'learned' some practices from someone who them self was probably not authorized or qualified to teach such a system, then that should also be a big red warning flag for any sensible person.  

 

Regarding why 'Mo Pai' or similar traditions may not want to teach to foreigners, one merely needs to look at all the nonsense and absolute craziness from Westerners that has gone down on the net and elsewhere regarding 'Mo Pai' to clearly see why such schools/traditions might very well want to avoid teaching to foreigners. The first and foremost most obvious reason would be because many Westerners seem to have little to no concept of eastern views of what is respectful behaviour and attitude towards a tradition or teachers, and no honour for keeping certain things completely private and very low key if asked to do so. Many westerners completely ignore such things and then scratch their head wondering why legit teachers would want to avoid them.    Also, it seems the 'allure' of what some traditions like 'Mo Pai' teach seems to make some people act very crazy as they are blinded by egotistical desires of 'super powers' and 'fame and fortune'. I can't imagine any legitimate teacher or tradition wanting to have anything to do with people like that. Scammers and deluded people focus on luring people like that, however. Such people have already lost before they have even started. 

 

On 3/2/2022 at 6:55 PM, Gerard said:

 

A delusional Taoist CULT.

 

If you are referring to John Chang's tradition (and not some western 'Mo Pai' money making scam), that is most definitely false. Having experienced in person what some practitioners of a similar type of neigong system can do (receiving very strong shock-like sensations in my body that felt like I was being electrocuted), I can tell you it is most definitely not delusion. 100% for certain it is a legit practice, and since what John Chang had demonstrated in videos in the past was clearly a very similar type of 'neigong' practice to what I have personally experienced, I have no doubt whatsoever the abilities John Chang demonstrated on video were legit. 

 

Such traditions would seem to more likely trace back to some of the practices Bodhidharma/Da Mo was supposed to have originally passed on to Shaolin Temple (according to legend), and although such practices have not been completely lost in China, it does appear to be lost from modern day Shaolin Temple, unless it is just kept completely hidden amongst only certain practitioners there. Such neigong practices do not appear to have connections to any particular "Daoist" tradition that I am aware of, but there has been so much mixing over the centuries, who could really say for sure? 

On 5/31/2021 at 5:17 AM, A2345B said:

thanks @Iskote

Ive started Wu ji zhan zhuang however it will take a little while before I get the posture correct. It looks easy but I guess my body tends to slouch over time. There are also areas of tension that refuse to relax as they help keep my body in that position.

 

Hi A2345B. Don't worry about areas of tension too much. Over time you will start to feel more comfortable and relaxed and natural while standing. Relaxing doesn't mean becoming completely limp like a rag doll so that you start to collapse. Just relax as much as you can while standing naturally straight, with your knees bent a little bit and your toes facing forward. Feet are about shoulder width apart. As long as you are  in that general posture, you should be fine. Make sure the armpits are open a bit so as not to restrict circulation through the armpit area. The exact posture is not super critical. You will adjust your posture to be more comfortable over time as you get more used to standing that way. Don't over-do the standing time either. Just a few minutes for one session for the first while is good enough. All the best. 

 

Edit: 

In my view, wuji zhan zhuang embodies the principles outlined in the dao de jing without adding anything. 

13 hours ago, A2345B said:

His Neidan training costs USD 40 per month which is something I can afford for the time being.

 

 

Wow, very expensive!  It must be really good. 

Just kidding. 

Full time teachers want steady income coming in to pay all their bills so they can do their own full time personal practice and travelling to China, etc., without having to work for a living.  Is that ethical?  

 

You don't need to learn a more 'complex' system like neidan to work on jing - qi - shen development. 

In my view, you do need to be celibate to seriously start working on jing - qi - shen development. 

If you are not celibate, you can still get benefits from qigong, tai chi, etc., but you will be limited in what can be achieved. 

Wu ji zhan zhuang is a good simple practice which anyone can do at home to get started on this road. 

You can potentially go a long way on your own if you practice diligently and correctly (relaxed and natural). 

That's why I recommend it. It doesn't drain your bank account as well.  

 

Here is something to consider. If you are celibate, and If you are able to continue a practice such as wu ji zhan zhuang every day without fail, and slowly over time build your daily standing time to at least an hour continuous per day without straining, say over six months or a year, by then you should already be quite aware of your qi developing and probably see some improvements to your health. However, many people will drop out of such a regular daily practice in just a few weeks or months, just not having the self discipline, or they get in a sexual relationship, or they find it too 'time consuming', although they have time to do other recreational activities.   

 

Now compare to serious neidan practice where one should probably be doing practices for a minimum of three hours a day, every day, and probably longer than that every day as one progresses. Ask yourself if you have the self discipline and are able to make the daily time commitment to such a practice, and also remain celibate? 

 

My suggestion to people interested in such practices is to start out with something like tai chi (definitely requires a good teacher to learn properly) or zhan zhuang, and see if you have the time and self discipline to practice every day, even for just a half hour or an hour every day over a year or two. If you can stick to that, then you can start to consider if you really can commit to even much more practice time each day. IMO, then, and only then, should you consider something like neidan which takes a much bigger commitment. If you are not celibate, I would suggest a person not even waste any time at all on considering neidan. Neidan is not for you.

Qigong or tai chi can still give good health benefits for 'ordinary' people, so that would still be something to consider for your average person. 

 

 

 

 

 

11 minutes ago, A2345B said:

Will Zhan Zhuang open my channels ? 

 

 

Yes, it certainly can, but please read my comment above carefully, line by line, on how to properly practice.  

I have distilled the practice down to the key essentials and requirements. 

It doesn't get much more simple than that, but don't confuse simplicity with inferior. 

It's all contained in that one practice.  If people would only just relax their monkey minds and practice daily. 

On 5/17/2021 at 6:48 AM, A2345B said:

What are some good courses by which I can cultivate Jing, Qi and Shen ?

 

 

My personal opinion is avoid any website/teacher that is selling neidan like it is a commodity. 

Real neidan practice is something like kriya yoga, or raja yoga. It takes a serious and lifetime commitment, and one really should be guided by an accomplished teacher. In my view, legit teachers will not sell such practices like a commodity, and real teachers do not seek publicity and money. They will only teach you if they feel you have strong ethics and show that you are truly committed to learning and putting in the daily effort required. There are no shortcuts which money can buy.  

 

However, for starting on the path of developing your jing, qi, shen, IMO, the following simple practice is one of the most effective and safe practices. 

This single meditation practice called 'wu ji zhan zhuang' can potentially take you a long way if practiced daily. 

Wu Chi the first position - Internal Strength - Energy Gates Qigong

 

The knees only need to be bent a little bit. 

You should keep the body relaxed as much as you can manage. 

Shoulders are down and fully relaxed. 

Your back is naturally straight and relaxed. Not forced straight. 

Eyes can be open or closed. 

Breathing should be relaxed, natural and deep. 

The elbows should be held a little bit away from the body so that your armpits are open a bit. 

You don't focus on anything in particular with your mind. Just relax. 

Be aware of your body and try to relax any areas of tension. 

Check from time to time that your breathing is relaxed and natural and deep. 

 

The most important points are to relax as much as you can and keep everything natural.

Do not force anything, including the stance.

Standing in this way may feel a little uncomfortable at first, but if you focus on keeping it as

natural and relaxed as you can, and don't continue standing when it starts to feel like a strain, 

you should be on the right track, and the stance will start to feel more relaxed and natural as you progress. 

 

You can start with just 5 or 10 minutes in one session, and slowly over time increase your standing meditation time. 

Best is to practice in the morning when getting up, and in the evening before sleeping. Once a day is fine though. 

If you are really serious about such a practice, you should ideally be celibate, or at least not have sex very often. 

 

 

On 4/22/2021 at 2:28 AM, Vajra Fist said:

I've run into a couple of teachers from qigong systems that I'm curious about, and from a quick look at their social media profiles, both are strongly anti-vaccine, anti-PC, anti-mask.

 

Do you really want to learn from a qigong teacher who is anti-reality?   

To each their own, however. 

 

On 12/28/2020 at 10:05 AM, sagebrush said:

transporting cocaine

not likely on maintained path

erosion control

 

 

erosion control 
haikus stacked along the shore 
fast water, still night 
 

20 hours ago, sagebrush said:

wide awake and bright

a good night sleep and fresh air

brings us to the  now!

 

brings us to the now 
on wings that do not flutter 
still as a mountain 

 

Demonstration and explanation of 'song', 'tai chi fa jin', 'sticking energy', etc., by Liang De Hua (AKA Leung Tak Wah), from Thailand.  He has learned from a few tai chi teachers over many years who have learned the traditional Yang family style tai chi curriculum deriving from Yang Shou Hou and Yang Cheng Fu., including forms such as "taiji big frame, taiji old frame, taiji long boxing, taiji small frame, taiji push hands, taiji sword, taiji saber, taiji spear, taiji long pole", and related Yang style tai chi training practices such as the various different tai chi push hands training practices and tai chi neigong practices. 

 

Liang De Hua says they practice tai chi fa jin practices such as demonstrated in the following videos to increase their tai chi martial arts understanding and internal power and skills. He explains that the tai chi forms and push hands plus tai chi neigong practices plus zhan zhuang practices are all important in developing these skills, but he has also mentioned that in old books by former Yang family tai chi students describing their training, he has not seen zhan zhuang practice specifically mentioned. So, not sure if zhan zhuang was really used much or at all in traditional Yang family tai chi training. 

 

When asked about the specifics of what he is doing when implementing tai chi fa jin as opposed to ordinary 'external' pushes and grappling, Liang De Hua has said he couldn't explain it clearly, but it involves using 'song' and 'yi' and maintaining an internal connection and employing all the tai chi principles. The ability comes from years of practice following the correct tai chi principles and training methods. Some people who do not have experience with internal arts may want to shout "that it is all BS, and it won't work in a real fight situation against a skilled fighter"; but, although I have not met Liang De Hua, he really appears to have developed some real tai chi skills with song, tai chi fa jin, and tai chi sticking energy, etc. How well his skills will work against someone who is not cooperating at all, I couldn't say, however. He does appear to me to have some legit tai chi skills however; but, again, I haven't met him. 

 

Liang De Hua's Youtube channel is here: 

https://www.youtube.com/c/TakWahLeung/videos

 

 

Taiji Jin 太極勁 | Part 1/2 | Liang De Hua 

 

 

Taiji Jin 太極勁 | Part 2/2 | Liang De Hua 

 

 

Yang style Taiji Sticking energy

 

21 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

To just walk around,

the red-tailed hawk has folded

her magnificence.  

 

Her magnificence
pine and spruce stand like sentries 
clouds gently caress 
 

A great sage once said: 

If you use mind altering substances, be prepared to live with negative consequences. 

Those who insist they have no negative consequences from using mind altering substances, 

are often those with the most resulting issues.  - Lao Huli - pre Xia Dynasty   

 

A good balanced form of qigong practice should slowly bring one's qi more into balance. 

It is not necessary to focus on any given condition. 

Any imbalances in the body will naturally be brought more into balance through regular qigong practice. 

As with anything in life, there are no guarantees, but if you don't give something a fair try, there can not be any results. 

Different people will suggest different qigong practices as being 'the best for health', so do some research and go with 

what seems to have good reviews from various people and which resonates with you. 

 

 

32 minutes ago, steve said:

 

I share your perspective on this.

The tricky thing is how to know whose perspective is accurate? Each of us essentially creates our own reality.

 

 

We can only perceive things the way we perceive things at any point in time. We can of course review and question our perceptions, but in the interests of practicality we can't be continually examining and questioning our perceptions or we risk becoming quite dysfunctional in our daily life. On the other hand, if a person is frequently getting negative feedback from a variety of different people in regards to their actions in some particular area of their interactions with others, then it would probably be a good idea for that person to take a closer look at their actions and think about whether they may possibly need some improvement, or at least consider if a new approach might bring better results, in that particular area. Dealing with other people is not always easy at all, but it does provide a person with feedback which can be useful in improving our self overall and helping us to re-examine our assumptions and beliefs.  

 

3 hours ago, steve said:

My point for starting this thread was far more mundane.

How do I interact with people when I am anonymous and using digital media as compared to how I interact in the flesh.

Can that tell me anything useful? Can it perhaps lead to clearer communication, less confrontation, less endless online bickering?

Perhaps not but it is simply something that interests me in this age of increasingly remote and digital communication.

 

From my perspective, you can't control how others will perceive things. People will form their own pictures in their mind no matter what, which may or may not be at all accurate to any given situation. We all have to work on improving our self in all sorts of ways, but we can't control at all if others misjudge us. As long as a person can honestly say to them self they have acted reasonably and appropriately in any given situation, that is all a person can do. How others may perceive things and react is not really much in our control. 

On 8/21/2020 at 4:10 AM, ऋषि said:

 

Returned to the Tao

that is named and thus untrue

Hidden shapes steal eyes

 

hidden shapes steal eyes 
shadows dancing to and fro 
the wind blows softly 
 

Steve, you might just as well ask if reality is even close to what each individual thinks it is... 

The picture we each have in our mind regarding most anything, is likely, more often than not, to be quite significantly different than the actual reality, assuming there actually is some underlying reasonably stable reality there at all...  

 

 

 

On 8/16/2020 at 2:50 AM, MattMyster said:

Hey guys, I was referred here by an old reddit post I stumbled upon that said to come here and ask for help. I'm wondering if anyone can tell me what Jim taught to do for levels 1-2 or if anyone can point me in the right direction.
I've pasted the original reddit post below for reference. 
Thanks for any insights! 

 

My reply will likely not make any difference, but here is my comment anyway.  A complex neigong system as was practiced by John Chang of course can't be learned from any junior student who is not by any stretch of the imagination qualified to teach any part of that system, no matter what they may say. Anything you read about 'mo pai' on the net or in a book by any junior students or any other claimed 'students' likely isn't trustworthy at all. If someone wants to learn that system, you would need to  go to Surabaya or where ever the school may be located and ask if they will accept you as a student. Good luck with that after all the complete craziness and extreme negativity that has occurred from that school apparently teaching just a few westerners a few basic practices. However, anything is possible. IMO, however, If a person's goal is to seek super powers and fame and fortune, they likely have already lost before they have started. Truthfully, the differences between western culture and eastern culture can be very large, and most westerners are likely just not in a compatible head space to assimilate well into such a system even if a westerner were to be accepted these days.