Iskote

On 8/14/2020 at 7:14 PM, Wayist said:

Iskote, Yes, many people believe exactly that! That the Dao de Jing is put together from many different people, and sources, even that it was assembled at many different times.  One of the first Daodejing's that I read, was translated by Bill Porter, or as most people like to call him; "Red Pine". He seemed to pretty strongly believe that Lao Zi was a real historical person.  He even showed us where Lao Zi might have have lived, via black and white photos, and the place where the "guard of the Pass" got Lao Zi to spend some time writing down the Daodejing.  I really like Red Pine's translation.  I think that Bill Porter made a believer out of me, to Lao Zi's physical existence, at a certain place, and at a certain time. This maybe is nothing more then wanting to believe in a fairy tale, or to believe in Santa Claus, if you will. I've read a couple of books about the archeological digs where a couple of really ancient copies of the Dao de Jing, were found in burial graves. I know that this isn't much, but it seems to add more historicity to the Dao de Jing.  At least it does for me!  Thanks for writing Iskote!  Peace, Wayist

 

Hi Wayist. Just to be clear, I didn't say anything about believing anything in regards to this topic. I just pointed out that there is (likely) no way from a historical perspective to know what the actual origins of that text are, or whether 'Lao Zi' was an actual person or not. It is just too long ago, at a time where little or no accurate or reliable records may have been kept. Even if some very old written text is found in a cave somewhere referring to Lao Zi as a person and describing his life, it still likely wouldn't prove anything. People can write whatever they like, but it doesn't mean it is necessarily accurate or factual. 

 

I just gave my personal impression of the Dao De Jing text based on its content and the way it is written. Belief is belief. Facts and reality can be quite another matter. Some people believe this. Some people believe that. For many people that is enough. What they believe is what they believe, and that is all there is to it for them. That is human nature. However, many things people believe are not necessarily at all even close to the actual truth. All any person can do from a practical point of view is take what makes sense to them at any given point in their life and try to make use of it, if it seems useful to them. Sometimes these assumptions/beliefs may seem to help out at a given point in a person's life, and sometimes they may not. What 'works' for one person may not work at all for another person. It's all part of the human experience. One thing to keep in mind, where strong belief is involved there is usually not much room at all for reasonable discussion.  People often express their beliefs as if it is solid fact, and they are not really interested in any other perspective, even if they say they are.  Also, people may not even realize to any degree at all they are operating strongly from belief on any given topic. They may insist that their point of view if based solely on experience and fact. Any given person's 'experience' and 'fact' can actually be very very biased by their beliefs however. The more a person understands about how beliefs strongly influence any given person's view of 'reality', the more they realize how little they really know. Well, that's my own personal biased point of view anyway. 

 

On 8/4/2020 at 10:40 PM, cloud444 said:

i have been doing all that already and my body doesnt seem to be getting better. my perepheral neuropathy is permanent so i have just hit a wall. 

 

Why do you believe you have neuropathy? Have you gone to a medical doctor and have you been tested and diagnosed by competent medical professionals?  If so, what do they think might be the cause of your condition? 

10 hours ago, Wayist said:

I've asked this before. But I did not get an answer, so I'll ask again.  Do you feel that Lao Zi was a real, historic human being? As the author of the Dao de Jing (??), I would very much like to discuss this.  If you'd like to give it a go here, please write.  Thanks,  Peace Wayist

 

There is simply no way of knowing from a historical perspective if Lao Zi might have been an actual person, and whether the content included in the Dao De Jing originated from one single person or not. The Dao De Jing appears to me to be a collection of various sayings and concepts, which are not so well organized, and which may very well have originated from different sources, as opposed to a cohesive single block of text written by one person. 

 

On 8/8/2020 at 4:04 PM, Taomeow said:

 

This your dream, not its,

AI turns into its dream  

of smart nanodust

 

of smart nanodust
is the universe not made? 
stars and moon shining 
 

If your body is very weak or sick,  masturbation/sex is about the worst thing you can do. 

If you are already very unwell, then allowing kundalini to take its course, if that is what it really is, 

can't really be much worse, can it? Let whatever is going on, go on as it will. 

Eat healthy and exercise. See what happens. That's what I would probably do,

based on your description anyway... Life is a journey. Most of us don't know where it is going to lead. 

Allow the journey to unfold as it will. Keep a positive frame of mind. What will happen, will happen. 

 

1 hour ago, Taomeow said:

 

Pummeling the shore,

the storm scatters fishermen.

The crab takes a nap.   

 

the crab takes a nap
a rigid mind is tiring 
nature is boundless 
 

On 8/1/2020 at 1:54 PM, moment said:

 

then falling to dirt

the white/yellow pollen clouds

begins it anew

 

begins it anew 
haiku is formless in form 
like waves on water
 

On 7/25/2020 at 12:31 PM, manitou said:

Mother's roots run deep.

I never resembled her

until I got old

 

until I got old 
I had never realized 
time is relative 
 

 

9 hours ago, SifuLew'sdaughter said:

There should be no DVDs of the Tao Ahn Pai system, my father was against DVD’s of Chi Gung 

 

I think I understand the reasoning of why some traditional teachers would be reluctant to video record their sets and practices. The teacher may well teach different students somewhat differently depending on their ability and level of understanding, etc. As a given student progresses, the teacher may modify the movements for that particular student to match their level of understanding and achievement. So, from that perspective, there is no set or static form that applies to all students.  Also, more 'advanced' forms should not be practiced until a student has mastered the more 'basic' forms and practices. If forms and practices are put on DVD, students may be practicing things which they are not ready to be practicing, and they may also really need the close guidance of an accomplished teacher to keep them on the right path and to assist the student with any issues or questions they may have in their practices.  

 

What many martial arts and qigong/neigong teachers from China have realized in the last several decades however is that much of these traditional arts are in decline, or are in danger of getting completely lost, or they are modified and changed into something else by people who are not really qualified to do so, as these old traditional masters pass on. In order to try to preserve their systems as intact as possible for future generations, quite a number of those masters of traditional systems have broken with tradition and have been recording part or much of their practices on DVD's. This way future students have a reference from an accomplished teacher of the system of the way things were traditionally taught and practiced. It still can/will have the drawbacks which I described above, but at least there is a better chance to keep the system from getting completely lost or too distorted from the original traditional teachings. 

 

56 minutes ago, EmeraldHead said:

@Iskote so what's the goal, to just feel without exacerbating ACTIONs of any kind, including impulses which can feed into bad postures or chi deviation, mental habits which are artificial, etc etc? didn't tao te ching say something like that? they see but they do not look, they sense but they do not feel, they hear but they do not listen, etc.

 

The goal is to improve health and longevity, and to 'cultivate dao'. 

The Dao De Jing outlines the principles, yes. 

Practices like zhan zhuang and taiji quan put those principles into practice. 

Naturalness and relaxing as much as one is able is the key. 

Nothing should be forced or controlled beyond comfortably maintaining the form, either physically or mentally. 

It is putting 'wu wei' into practice. 

 

What many people (especially in the West) can't seem to wrap their head around is that by doing 'nothing', much can be achieved. You just stand naturally and relax as much as you are able, and do not focus on anything in particular with your mind beyond maintaining a casual awareness that you are standing in zhan zhuang (i.e., don't fall into day dreaming), and there is no limit to the results that can be achieved. 

 

Anyone who practices the basic wuji zhan zhuang stance (or embracing the tree stance) at least once a day

('basic' is really a misnomer, as it includes everything), as I have outlined above, for three months, increasing standing duration time slowly and gradually in such a way that you are never straining to continue standing, should see very tangible and beneficial results by that time. Then you will know from direct personal experience whether those principles have real practical value or not.

 

The principles outlined in the Dao De Jing are actually a practical guideline for self cultivation. 

It is not just a collection of flowery words and phrases for one's mental amusement. 

 

 

 

"Is it safe to practice static exercises like Zhan zhuang without a teacher?" 

 

The answer is, it depends. It can depend on a person's prior experience in related practices,

and whether a person is able to practice naturally or not without letting their mind interfere. 

 

Given what you stated in your comments above, it sounds like you might have problems

just standing and relaxing as much as possible, and not paying too much attention to any

specific tensions or sensations or anything else related to zhan zhuang practice. 

 

The proper way to practice zhan zhuang is to relax as much as you are able to, 

and just stand as naturally as you can, and not pay any much attention to any sensations

or tensions or anything else related to your body or sensations. You will of course likely be aware 

of such things, but you should not pay such things any attention. 

The practice must be relaxed and natural. Let whatever happens happen without any interference 

or specific attention from you. 

 

If you don't think you can look at a picture or video of a demonstrated stance and imitate that 

reasonably closely, then you probably should go see an experienced  teacher. If anyone tells you that 

you should be focusing your mind in a certain way, or trying to breathe in a certain way, 

run away screaming with your hands over your ears. 

 

Zhan zhuang practice should always be relaxed and natural. As long as you are 

standing reasonably close to what the stance is supposed to look like, 

and you are relaxed and natural, in my own experience you will be fine. 

The most important thing is to be relaxed and natural as much as you can manage. 

You will automatically adjust your stance to be more natural and relaxed as you progress. 

If you don't think you can practice that way on your own, then try to find an experienced teacher. 

 

If you are natural and relaxed, which includes your breathing just being natural and relaxed, 

and with your mind not focusing on anything in particular beyond just being aware that you are 

standing in zhan zhuang, then you should be fine. People can potentially cause problems for them self 

when they try to add things like special concentrations and special breathing, or trying to 

bend the knees too much and causing unnecessary strain, or if they focus on and try to control sensations

and tensions, etc. 

 

 

On 7/15/2020 at 4:53 AM, helpfuldemon said:

Is truth relative?  Is it really all in the eye of the beholder?  Are there any absolutes, and if so, what are they based upon?

 

People can easily get them self into playing mind and word games; but, if they are wise, 

they will look both ways before crossing the street, they will be very careful when 

handling a knife or a gun, and they will try to avoid stepping off the edge of a high cliff. 

 

For practical purposes, truth is that which, to the best of our ability, holds to be invariably true when

subjected to sound and reasonable observation and tests. As awareness and understanding

increases, what is held to be true may sometimes be modified to fit the new observations and new understanding,

but we must adhere to whatever our current level of understanding indicates to us is true at any given point, or

we certainly risk walking off the edge of a high cliff to our own demise, so to speak.  Individuals or 

groups of people may hold to some differences in what they experience to be true, but a wise person learns

to clearly differentiate between what belief dictates to be true, and what holds to be true outside of any particular belief system. 

 

We should not hold rigidly to our current understanding, whatever that may be at any given point in time,

but we should respect and make use of our current understanding so as to try to avoid doing foolish and harmful things as much as we are able. 

 

Those who do foolish and harmful things, whether harmful to them self or harmful to others, will have 

to pay the price for their actions in one way or another, whether they realize it or not. 

In my own personal observation, the more a given individual's understanding and awareness increases, 

the less they will do harm to them self and to others. 

 

Beware of falling into the trap of endless mind and word games. 

 

 

22 hours ago, Lao Xiong said:

they ride upon it

but who are the anyway

a stranger to all

 

a stranger to all
mother to the sun and moon
lair of the dragon 
 

Sanity Check:

Mak is a definite fake, but that should be quite obvious from his videos and comments, etc. anyway.  

You definitely want to avoid Mak. Please see my comment linked below where I recap some of Mak's sleazy history in my comment about Wilson Yong: 

 

 

On 6/2/2020 at 9:54 AM, virtue said:

There is no reliable evidence for Tian Ruisheng's death in the first place.

 

Well, no one here likely saw the body, but his death did make the Chinese news, as later his 

son was reported to have been convicted of fraud for continuing to collect Tian Ruisheng's 

pension for quite some time after his death. 

"Son of sect founder is convicted of fraud" - South China Morning Post

https://www.scmp.com/article/420965/son-sect-founder-convicted-fraud

 

That news story says Tian Ruisheng was reported to have died in September 1995 of liver cancer. 

Unless one of us saw the body and medical documents, we can't say for sure whether the news story was

completely accurate or not, but chances are it is probably true that Tian Ruisheng died in 1995 of some type of cancer. 

I mean we could just as easily say there is no reliable evidence that Elvis really died because we personally may not have 

confirmed the physical evidence there as well,  but chances are pretty high that both are really dead, and that they 

both did die at the time they were reported to have died.  

 

 

5 minutes ago, zerostao said:

Initiated 8 years ago. My experience is a positive one. 

This is effilang's thread. 

An older thread I ran can be found in my personal practice section.

I've thought of starting a new XYP thread, probably also in my personal practice section. 

 

Thanks for the feedback and info about your thread. . 

1 hour ago, zerostao said:

I hope this helps answer your question Vajra Fist.

 

Hello zerostao. Are you an initiate of this system, and, if so, in general what is your experience with it? 

 

Hello matrod. The practice of zhan zhuang is actually traditionally taught by some tai chi teachers, and the opening stance of tai chi (in some styles of tai chi anyway) is the 'wuji' stance, which is a core stance of zhan zhuang practice. You should be perfectly fine mixing those two practices. As for fragrant qigong, I don't know what the teachers of that system have said in regards to mixing that practice with tai chi and zhan zhuang, so I can't comment from that perspective; but, from a practical point of view, I would be inclined to think that practicing level 1 of fragrant qigong along with tai chi and zhan zhuang will likely be fine, but the original teacher of fragrant qigong may have stated differently. I don't know. I think the level 1 of fragrant qigong is focused on health improvement, so I wouldn't think there should be any much of a conflict, and may actually be quite complementary practices.  If you feel any ill effects when mixing, then you might want to re-evaluate mixing what you are practicing, or maybe just practice those different practices at different times of the day.  I am doubtful you should run into any issues with mixing those practices though.  

 

Hello Compassion Please. Welcome! 

 

I should warn you that some people here may get quite triggered and argumentative and insulting when it comes to certain religious topics and religious figures.  Also, moderators appear to be in shorter supply here recently, so be warned. Also, this is more of a widely eclectic discussion forum than a pure 'Daoist' discussion forum.  

 

Qigong and internal martial arts are practices which have a long and varied history in China, and although the term 'qigong' (chi kung) itself is a newer term, some of the practices them self may have roots which may go back for potentially thousands of years. Such practices in China are not always necessarily linked to Daoism specifically, although in many cases they may be. There are also qigong and martial arts practices which are associated with Buddhism in China, and qigong and martial arts practices in China which may have no overt association to any religion. 'Daoism' itself is also more of an umbrella term which covers many varied practices and native traditions in China, and many of those traditions and practices may have quite different roots and outlooks. Some of what may be included under the Daoism umbrella might be better termed folk religious practices, and then there are other practices and traditions such as some forms of qigong and neigong and martial arts and related which may be less religion affiliated, or not religion affiliated at all, but which may claim roots going back to the times of Lao Tzu (the Dao De Jing text) (estimated approximately 500 to 600 BC) and the Yellow Emperor (AKA Huangdi) (estimated over 2500 years BC), etc.

 

You might also consider that places such as India, Tibet, and Nepal, etc., also have yoga and pranayama and meditation and other practices which may have moderate to strong similarities to practices found in China (pranayama has strong parallels to qigong, for example) , as well. Some of the practices of Saddhus in the Himalayan mountains do appear to be similar in at least some ways to practices and goals attributed to mountain Daoists in China, although there may be no historical connection between those different traditions.  The goals and practices of many Saddhus (AKA Sadhus) in India and other ascetics in various other countries may have moderate to strong similarities in practices and philosophy and outlook, even if there is no known direct historical link between those practices and traditions.  There is a Hindu related text entitled the 'Avadhuta Gita' which describes a practitioner's point of view of reaching a non-dualistic realization of the world through cultivation which sounds strikingly similar to parts of text outlined in the Dao De Jing, although the person who wrote that 'Avadhuta Gita' text probably had never heard of Lao Tzu or the Dao De Jing. My inclination is that spiritual (or personal) cultivation is spiritual cultivation, and experiences and end results may well, and maybe should, have strong similarities across different traditions, if those practices and experiences are valid, even though there may be no known historical connection between different cultivation practices and practitioners from different parts of the world. That is just a speculation though, of course. Good luck in your research! 

 

3 hours ago, SirPalomides said:

Is it possible that Tian Ruisheng’s relatively early death was because he exhausted his qi in healing so many other people? This is a speculation I read on a Chinese blog, and I wondered if this is considered a possibility in the qigong world.

 

I read that he died of liver cancer. If true, it is anyone's guess what may have caused that cancer however. 

 

6 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

seamlessly perfect

the cat launches to the desk
looks without seeing 

 

Looks without seeing 
For there is nothing to see 
No here and no there 
 

I like some abstract and impressionist art, but never put art on my walls. I don't really know very many paintings or art, but If I did put art on my walls, I might put some like this up (just chose some I like after searching Google Images, to give an idea of what kind of art has impact for me) : 

 

"Dali - The Persistence of Memory, 1931"  (I first saw this when I was young and thought the melting clocks were very cool)

 

 

"Haida Raven"

 

 

"Tom Thomson - In The Northland"

 

 

"Abstract Painting,1950 by Lawren Stewart Harris"

 

 

"The Grey Tree, 1912, by Piet Mondrian" 

 

 

Even more modern stuff like this I think is nice, even if it it was created for more commercial purposes: 

 

 

 

"Abstract art deco seamless pattern Premium Vector"

 

 

When you give people examples of what type of art you like, it gives them a window into your mind/soul...

 

 

On 5/27/2020 at 1:15 PM, Taomeow said:

 

Neither does a thorn

disown the rose's sweetness

nor she the thorn's wrath 

 

Nor she the thorn's wrath 
for it acts by not doing 
like all in nature 
 

Yes, that is the guy.   

 

On 3/3/2020 at 5:49 AM, themjay said:

Could anyone please be kind enough to comment on the legitimacy of Dr Wilson Yong, purveyor of

http://www.taoistsecret.com/

A daobums search reveals a couple of broadly positive comments over the years, but you can’t get more overt criticism than this site:

https://wilsonyongtaoism.wordpress.com/

Many thanks in advance

 

 

Not sure if you are still around to see this reply, but here is what I know about Wilson Yong. 

 

I had some interaction with Wilson Yong through email a number of years ago. 

My impression was he was sincere about what he was teaching and offering, and his tradition, but

his type of lineage may not be for everyone. It involves the use of talismans and incantations

and ceremonies and that sort of thing. I don't know very much about his tradition beyond that,

but some might refer to it as 'folk Taoism', which is still practiced in places like Malaysia and Taiwan. 

 

The second webpage looks very similar to the kind of attacks against Wilson Yong that were being made by a person who once posted here at Dao Bums (Herman Mak, if I remember correctly, AKA 'Mak Jo Si', 'Mak Tin Si', etc.), who went by different self proclaimed 'Taoist' titles and names over the years, and who is a very troubled person, to say it as nicely as I can. I think Mak was banned from Dao Bums after only a short stint of posting here, to give you an idea about him. 

 

Mak declared himself and his partner to be 'high level Taoist masters' decreed by the 'highest

level Taoist gods' whom he claimed appeared before them and ordained them, and he started his own 'Taoist temple' and 'Taoist sect', etc., but I remember reading on his website a few years after that where he admitted that he made the whole divinely decreed Taoist master stuff up in conjunction with another person as a scam. His remorse didn't last long however. Several months later he took that webpage down and started a new website under a new name, and a new 'Taoist sect' with a new name, and changed his and his partner's titles and names a bit, but the same story again. He was supposedly ordained into a new 'Taoist sect' by 'highest level Taoist gods' again, and he carried on again as if nothing had happened previously. He used to go on and on about how his 'Taoist sect' was the only true and authentic form of Taoism out there. Ha ha. One of the things he did was use pellet guns on his 'Taoist alter' and similar instead of say ceremonial swords as his special 'Taoist tools' for doing 'exorcisms' and that sort of thing, for which he charged very large sums of money. I kid you not. For several years Mak posted all kinds of videos on Youtube where he was reviewing all kinds of pellet guns and demonstrating all kinds of martial arts forms where it was obvious he was just copying various forms from many different Chinese martial arts DVDs, or making up his own 'martial arts' sets. 

 

For some reason Mak went after Wilson Yong a number of years ago, and Mak was attacking Wilson Yong all over the net, and I believe Wilson Yong just kind of went low profile on the net at that point rather than trying to deal with a very troubled person. Wilson Yong's website also went dormant around the same time, I believe. It looks like he may have decided to stay low profile after what happened with Mak. Wilson Yong is a medical doctor, I believe, and he likely didn't have time to try to deal with Mak's antics on the net.  

 

I can't vouch for the authenticity of Wilson Yong's tradition, because I know little about it, but Mak is definitely a very troubled person from what I saw over a period of several years. I wouldn't normally say much of anything about things like this, but I felt I should give a warning about Mak for people who may not have heard of him before, and who don't know his history.