Iskote

Why is science having such a hard time finding chi? I mean, I can feel it! So why can't they find it? It's so weird to me.

Anyone know?

Well, for one thing, science isn't doing anything. 'Science' is just a way of studying our world.

It is scientists who would be doing the research and experiments and what not, not science.

Anyway, assuming you are talking about Western scientists, what makes you think

that many Western scientists are looking? I suspect relatively few are actually looking, but I could be wrong.

I think also that many Western scientists would not know what chi (or qi or ki or whatever) is, or many

might just assume it is just a superstitious concept, or that is really just a way to describe certain types of physiological phenomena, so what's there to study? Also, many Western scientists work for commercial organizations, so there would likely have to be some angle where companies could see a potential

for profit before investing money into such research.

Besides the money issue, it is not an easy matter to overcome cultural biases.

Also, there may not be a lot a truly accomplished qigong masters here in the West who are willing

to subject themselves to the time demands of the rigorous scientific testing that would be required.

Despite all that, I think there is at least some research going on in the West regarding qigong therapy,

and even more research into acupuncture. Such things take quite a bit of time, as many studies have to

be done, and then refined, and done many times again, and be able to be replicated by others, and also

withstand peer review, etc. There is also the widely held concept that 'extraordinary claims require

extraordinary evidence', so the reality is that it would take much stronger scientific evidence to convince

many in the West that qi really exists than it would to establish scientific proof for more mundane things.

This relates to the cultural bias thing. In China, where the concept of qi is much more widely accepted, it

may not require as strong scientific evidence as would be likely required in the West to be able to start

convincing other scientists that the scientific results are significant.

Another factor is that whatever qi is, it may not lend itself well to study with current methods and instruments

used in scientific study today. The methods used in quantum physics may prove more useful in

this respect, who knows?

Best wishes from Iskote...

I can practice at those specified times, but obviously it's going to change a lot of sleep and activity patterns, so I was wondering if it's worth rigidly adhering to, or if I'll be able to derive many of the same benefits at different hours.

I don't think it is really all that critical, but I am not sure how much difference it would make

if a person kept their practice to those specific optimal time periods rather than practicing at other times.

Early mornings and late evenings are good if a person can manage it. One has to be practical

though, so just practice at a time or times that you can maintain regularly. Consistent regular daily

practice is probably more important than the exact specific times that one practices at, I would think.

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An interesting practice I came across, which I'm more than certain I'd like to try, but have a few questions.

 

Anyway, here it is:

 

"Every time between 11 pm and 1 am, 11 am and 1 pm, 5 am and 7 am, 5 pm and 7 pm, retreat to your meditation chamber. Place a warm mat on your wooden bed. Sit cross-legged and close your eyes. Use some cotton wool to block your ears. Do not have any thoughts. Be mindful of your breathing, following each inward and outward flow to a point between the heart and the kidneys. Do not be too fast, not too slow; be natural. After sitting for the time of one incense (about 30 minutes), you will find that your breathing through your mouth and nose has ceased to be rough, and has become smooth and gentle. After sitting for another incense, you will find no breath passing through your mouth and nose. Then gently stretch your limbs, open your eyes and take out the cotton wool. Leave your bed and walk about. Then lie on your wooden bed and take a nap. When you awake, eat half a bowl of light porridge. Do not work laboriously nor be angry, as this will diminish the effect you have acquired in the training. Practice the method every day. After two months, you will see the results."

What is the importance of the 5-7, 11-1 times? I assume they must be liminal times, where energy is high and thus are good times for Qigong, meditation, etc.? Do you think it's necessary to adhere to these strictly, or just do a sunrise/sunset/two other times meditation?

 

My only main gripe here is that I'd have to cease working out for several months.. and would therefore have a very rough time getting back into it. I can actually fit those times for meditation into my schedule quite nicely though.

 

Has anyone else heard of this? There apparently are no other resources (at least that I've found) on this man/ the exercise in the English language.

This sounds quite similar to how Taoist meditation is normally practiced except one

usually keeps their attention on the lower dantian when starting out, or breathes (through the nose)

down to the dantian. There are variations to this which would normally be directed at

the discretion of the teacher. Anyway, assuming that's translated correctly, Gong Ding Xian

must have had his reasons for specifying it the way he describes there.

I saw a reference that Gong Ting Xian (Gong Ding Xian) was a Chinese doctor who lived sometime

during the Ming Dynasty (1368 - 1644). The Chinese name for the book he wrote is apparently

'Shou Shi Bao Yuan', which apparently translates as something like 'Protecting the primordial (or original)

to Procure Longevity'; so pretty much the same as the translation you had.

The time periods you mentioned are not necessarily times when energy is highest (there are both

yin and yang energy peak times), but if one practices regulary at the indicated times it will supposedly give

the most beneficial and best overall balanced results (effects on yin and yang energies in the body) to the

meditation.

Traditionally the Chinese divided the hours of the day into twelve (2 hour) periods.

The periods that are often cited as the best meditation/practice times are the ones that were listed.

In Chinese Medicine, one's internal energy is supposed to be most active in one of the

12 meridians during each of these 12 time periods. So the choice of time periods also relates to this

as well, to provide overall balanace and best results, (based on my understanding).

11:00 PM - 1:00 AM - Zishi - gall bladder meridian

5 AM - 7:00 AM - Maoshi - large intestine meridian

11:00 AM - 1:00 PM - Wushi - heart meridian

5:00 PM - 7:00 PM - Youshi - kidney meridian

If you can't practice at all four time periods, then early morning and/or late evening are usually the

times people who work, or are otherwise busy, practice. If that won't work for you, then

just practice at the times that you can practice.

Best wishes from Iskote...

Who Are Celestials Masters?

In this Earthly realm there is a sect of Taoism called Zhengyi Dao in which the leaders of

this sect are referred to as Celestial Masters. There are also other Taoist sects that use this term

as well for certain highly accomplished Taoists, from what I understand. For those that are outside

this Earthly realm, I don't know...

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Iskote, I can confirm the immediate effects of the practice, but like Ya Mu mentions, I can't notice if it comes from myself, and/or how to localise sick Qi. But from what I've experienced, the exercises are much, much stronger than most Qigong I've experienced.

Yes, I have tried such practices as well. I know the sensations you are speaking of. There

can be all kinds of sensations. In my experience the effectiveness of one's practice is not really

measured by sensations though. Different types of practices may produce various sensations or other experiences at various stages, and sometimes you may not feel much in the way of sensations at all.

Such things can vary quite a bit as your practice progresses. Also, some people seem to be less sensitive to

such things, but still get all the benefits, so sensations and the like are really not a reliable way to

judge effectiveness of practice or progress IMO.

My main practice is stillness meditaton so I don't really focus on such things, although sensations

of all types come and go. I am more interested in the results. I am starting to become more interested

in qigong healing methods as well.

Best wishes from Iskote...

Here is where we differ in opinion. I think there is no possible way (reading it from a book? Someone telling you something?) to actually gain that understanding without experiencing the thing. Chinese medicine is a good example. Read several books on TCM. Does anyone understand what qi actually is from reading them? No way! One has to experience the qi. Does anyone actually understand how to manipulate the qi from reading those books? No way! How can they manipulate something that they have never experienced?

Even so, a TCM practitioner can still effect change in the health of a patient,

so their knowledge at least helps. BTW, don't you have a book out on qigong?

Maybe I am confusing you with someone else?

I do agree someone should research something before jumping into it. But that doesn't actually mean they know what they really are getting into.

At least they will have some idea of what they are undertaking, and maybe some

idea on how effective the practice is as well. There are teachers teaching stuff out there

that other teachers say is ineffective or even harmful. I know it is common for teachers

of one type of practice to criticize other practices though, so one should probably take all

such assessments with a grain of salt.

Anyway, my intention was not to hijack Dao Child's thread.

Getting back to Dao Child's question on whether the method of drawing qi from the 'cosmos'

in one hand and redirecting it out the other hand for healing purposes really is an effective

method for healing, and whether it drains or at least impacts one's internal energy or not,

I don't have any experience with that. It sounds similar to Reiki healing where the energy

is supposed to come from outside the self, and the Reiki healer just channels and directs it.

Not sure though. It would seem that if you are drawing energy from one hand and emitting it

from the other hand that you would still be impacting your internal energy in some way, since

the energy is passing through you, but I don't know. Also how would you be able to tell if

you are not also emitting some of your own energy as well? Would you feel immediate effects

if that were the case? I tried to clarify a bit in my other post on what is meant by the term internal

energy, so maybe someone else can comment more on the effectiveness of such methods ('water pump'),

and if or how it impacts one's internal energy.

Best wishes from iskote...

Not from my perspective. See how all the confusion was gained from reading a book which led to false conclusions? Anyone can gain a perspective from reading 10,000 books but what does that perspective mean? Without the experience of the thing it actually doesn't have a whole lot of meaning. I can read everything you wrote in the above post and agree with it from a Chinese medicine perspective but it tells me absolutely nothing about the experience of qi cultivation or how to manipulate qi.

The problem as I see it is there are so many practices out there. There is medical qigong, martial qigong,

spiritual or mystical qigong, etc., and no clear dividing line between them all. Also, many teachers teach various combinations of these different types of practices. If someone has a better understanding of what the

approaches of the various practices are, and what exactly they are trying to achieve, it seems reasonable

that one can then make a more informed decision on what route they want to go.

Whether theory is written, or transmitted in person through conversation, or through demonstration,

it is still theory. Some teachers prefer to emphasize theory at first and some prefer to emphasize practice

at first. Some teachers prefer to teach both right from the get go. But I don't think that's the point here.

I think it is more to do with getting a better understanding what the various approaches do and why.

With such information one can then make a more informed choice on what they want to practice.

Once they have made their choice, they can learn what the teacher is teaching, and practice the

way the teacher instructs them to practice, but at least they will be practicing something that is

likely taking them in the direction they want to go.

Again, I hope others will contribute to this thread, as I am interested in learning about the various

approaches and exactly why they are done as well.

Best wishes from Iskote...

This seems to be the whole report. That once more shows that Reuters is not journalism, but entertainment and propaganda. I mean ... this trick is so incredibly easy to see.

I think they probably knew that 'Ramana' stunt was an illusion, but they like to include stories like that

in the news as 'human interest' stories. It also makes good filler when there is not enough important

news to fill the whole time slot.

Less advanced stages of levitation are said to include being able to jump higher and return to the ground much, much slower.

Now that would definitely be fun.

Sort of like what I have experienced in my dreams sometimes...

I can fly in my dreams.

I have done so too. It usually feels pretty good.

Levitation would likely be fun. Could use it when dusting light fixtures and

the like as well, so it might come in handy.

Best wishes from Iskote...

The videos you find on YouTube - most fraud or/and jokes.

Several actually show how it is done.

And then, in India there are competitions on levitations.

Which are series of jerk like jumps the body is doing - some friend in TM were doing them too.

Yes, there are lots of fake videos out there. Such things can certainly be done with

tricks or special effects. It doesn''t mean all such videos are necessarily fakes though.

The TM 'yogic flying' seems rather strange to me. If it is just a training exercise then

maybe it is not so strange.

Best wishes from Iskote...

I don't know. You have the power to decide this, don't you? So it's kind of unfair to ask others about it when you are perfectly capable of deciding this for yourself.

Unfair? Now that's just plain silly.

Also, I don't need or require decisions, was just wondering what people think, if they feel like commenting.

No pressure and no contracts to sign.

Was actually more just looking for comments on levitation in general...

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By the way, we are flying right now. Also, a flying yogi is not flying anywhere.

Such is just talk. Intellectual concepts only have a basis within the confines that they hold true.

There is relative and there is absolute. Intellectual analysis belongs to the relative.

To continue with your line of thinking, I guess you might also say hammers are not real?

If so, remove your shoes and hold the hammer up about 5 feet directly above one of your feet.

Release the hammer. Are hammers real now?

Best wishes from Iskote...

Levitation is possible when the lower densities of a being through meditation are suppressed for a period of time into elemental essences.

 

(Edit:) To clarify, in certain Tantric practices the essences of the elements are visualized as colors and one has to comprehend certain realities of interdependent causations of qualities.

That sounds complicated.

Levitation videos. Real or not real?

Flying Yogi?

Check out this video. It is fairly blurry and could have easily been faked of course,

but it's still interesting. Towards the end of the video you will see a shadowy shape

zip up into the air.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKSTqsUKWc8...feature=related

Levitating African Shaman?

No indications in this short video clip were given regarding what steps

the film crew took to try to detect trickery, but it is interesting anyway.

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