..be..

I idea that we mistreat the animals we use as food as the reason not to eat meat does not wash, IMHO. What about the way we treat the plants we use as food? Unnatural growing conditions, unnatural food, unnatural pest control etc. How do you think the corn stalk feels we she sees the combine coming down the row to steal her young? Oh, you don't think the corn has feelings? Then how do you know the cow, pig, chicken does? And yes, the corn plant lives it's life for one and only one reason, to produce her young and the next generation. And what do we do? We eat her young. Same goes for wheat, oats etc etc etc. If you're going to give human feelings to living things you can't discriminate and say animals have them and plants don't.

And what about pets? Are your cats, dogs fish etc living their lives in keeping with nature? Or, are they being manipulated to live their lives to meet the needs and desires of their human keepers? So it's OK to manipulate the life of a cat to please our needs but not OK to manipulate the life of a cow.

When you try to discriminate you create problems that are not real.

Let's recognize we are parsing over the meaning of words here. Maybe we have found one of those areas where words aren't adequate. I've found that when this happens it ends up being a distraction and mostly not worth the trouble.

I still think we are getting a cross over between "hope" and 'faith".

HOPE: feeling of expectation and desire for certain thing to happen.

FAITH: complete trust or confidence in someone or something.

(per Oxford American)

Stig, maybe faith is the better word.......

Have we switched from hope to faith?

If Govinda had given up hope sooner and became enlightened, could he have spent his life healing eternal spirits instead of temporal bodies?

Is hope relative?

Is it noble to hope for world peace but ignoble to hope for wealth?

Is it noble to hope for enlightenment?

Or does hope get in the way?

How is hope different from desire?

Another seeker. I come from a Zen background, about 20 years of zazen. Mostly on my own, a few weekend sesshins. I live in the middle of no-where (and like it that way) so contact with masters or groups is hard. Weekend or even full week sesshins or workshops are possible in eastern or southern US.

Fairly extensive Buddhist reading/study. Limited Taoist reading(Tao Teh Ching, Chuang Tzu,

When the Shoe Fits, few others). I have done tai-chi in the past, but not currently.

Looking to expand my horizons and the Tao seems like a logical direction. So, where do start? I ran across a site from Max Christensen on Kunlun. Worth a try or is there another option you would suggest?

Thanks and peace to you.