Sahaj Nath

I would suggest practicing the Wuji standing posture for increasing periods of time to start. It will teach you to let go of your fast twitch muscles, and develop sensitivity to your own body and energy. I think staking posture meditation, to begin, is by far more valuable than sitting - sitting should come later, IMhumbleO.

 

Also regarding books, or systems, or whatever... They're better left as reference material. I think a lot of us have seen the very real and very sad merits of incorrect practice and maladjusted cultivation techniques. For which reason teachers are invaluable, though I've had a lot of people have told that I'm wrong about that. As teachers go, I really lucked out in terms of proximity, financials etc. I realize that not everyone is as fortunate.

 

Where abouts are you located?

 

good suggestion with the wuji posture.

 

as simple as the posture is, however, it's very easy to get it wrong.

 

mantis, if you don't know the basic mechanics of standing posture, and if you don't have a teacher nearby, i would suggest a video. it's the best video i've seen in covering the foundation of moving practice (which most often begins with wuji).

 

tai chi connections, by ymaa.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Tai-Chi-Connections-...4260&sr=8-1

 

 

this video changed my teaching approach. i'm sure it will serve you well. between this video and the last book i suggested, The Healing Promise of Qi, you'd be building an awesome foundation. better than many experienced practitioners.

 

 

you're on the right track with going deep on a small number of exercises. and if you're getting good results from the seated practice, don't give it up.

I continue to be pretty mesmerized by this form ...

 

Master Yuan Xiu Gang doing Tai Yi Qigong

 

 

 

 

never thought i could be blown away in under 2 minutes!

 

simply amazing.

 

 

thank you for sharing this.

I'm not mocking special abilities, quite the opposite. I think it trivializes true abilities like healing and empathy. Personally I believe if a person can see a hidden object, what they really have done is honed their abilities at reading people, and they are reading the slight tells the person who hid the object has.

 

 

i understand what you're saying. and believe it or not, i agree with you that crack-pot psychics and magicians trivialize the authentic.

 

 

i just didn't want to get sucked into this kind of discussion. so, as will probably be a consistent pattern of mine on this forum, i will say what i have to say, and then leave it at that.

 

 

if your example of a person seeing a hidden object is drawn from my description of my student's abilities, then you have already jumped to conclusions that i never claimed. i never said he could 'see hidden objects.' he can't. and if he could, it still probably wouldn't occur the way you seem to assume in this statement.

 

perhaps it's my fault. i'll try to clarify a little.

 

 

i'm going to assume (or at least HOPE) that i don't have to spend hours writing an essay on the nature of qi energy. it's not limited to one aspect, but i think that viewing it in terms of bioelectricity is an easier, less threatening way of having the discussion. so, for the sake of this conversation, i'm going to say that qi is nothing more than bioelectricity, which is already an accepted scientific fact of our biological make-up.

 

well, it's also accepted that (keeping in mind that we live on a big electromagnetic rock) all matter possesses a degree of electromagnetism. everything has a subtle electromagnetic trace, if you will.

 

someone who has trained to store, refine, and intensify their bioelectricity is capable of sensing the electromagnetic trace of other objects, and as their sensitivity refines, they are even capable of sensing objects within objects, being that the trace of the two objects will have subtle differences.

 

this isn't mystical or magical. none of it is. and it doesn't take a high level of ability to do stuff like what i described, as he's only been training for a year. and contrary to popular belief, this stuff HAS been verified and documented for years. the book The Body Electric might be a good starting point for many of you science-minded folks who have a sincere interest in this matter.

 

what my student can do is simply place his hand over a few buckets and feel which bucket gives off a stronger intensity. and there are many conditions under which this would not work. the presence of stronger fields in the room could throw it off, as he would be unable to differentiate the currents. but it's not magic. it just looks that way to the unconscious (asleep) on-looker.

 

and if he reaches the level where he actually CAN see the object underneath, it will be largely based on the same principle, but with his eyes doing a much more refined differentiating.

 

 

science is not waiting on proof. the jury is back on these phenomena. conflict occurs when skeptics hear about something they know nothing about, imagine in their minds 'how' it would take place if it could take place at all, and then judge others based on their own unfounded assumptions about the process. they presume that they can test something that they don't understand, and create conditions that could influence the outcome.

 

his empathic ability, healing ability, and liquid changing ability, are all based on the same principles. that's why they were the ones used for the example.

 

many twins are able to communicate across great distances because the mind frequencies in the resonant cavity between their brain lobes and the skull (what lao tzu call the valley of the spirit, located behind the 3rd eye point) are so perfectly aligned. this, too, has been scientifically documented. but put two of these twins in the same room with either a cell phone or WiFi frequencies present, and the outcome might be different. it's almost impossible to account for all of the influences. but either way,

 

when you understand the process, the magic goes away.

 

 

 

electricity is more than just the stuff that makes your computer function. it's so much more than that. Benjamin Franklin knew this.

 

 

 

people die from harmful electromagnetic fields (power lines) every year. is it so hard to believe that people can also be healed by fields of a different frequency?

 

hitting a key on the piano will vibrate the corresponding string on a guitar 20 feet away. is that supernatural?

 

 

these are all simple, simple things. some of us are just more conscious (awake) and purposeful with the use of the phenomenon than others.

 

 

"no, i've never heard of water," said the fish. "why do you ask?"

i figured the conversation would move in this direction.

 

 

 

 

i'll choose my words more carefully in the future.

Hei,you say your student have abilities.What kind of abilities are you talking about??

in fact, my highest student first came to me claiming that he wanted to awaken, but in a very short time it became clear that he wanted the magical abilities. not because he was a bad person, but because he thought it would validate him in a way that he hadn't experienced in his own life. we talked through it over a period of months, and now he has more ability than he's even explored yet

 

 

i don't know the tone of your question. "Hei" is hard to translate, and you could be saying "hey" or "heh," and those imply two very different sentiments. the two question marks leads me to think you meant the latter.

 

either way:

 

my intention was merely to illustrate a point. abilities are not hard to come by. they happen on their own with consistent daily practice. i'm sure there are a number of people on this forum who both have and teach others to develop various abilities.

 

i don't want to answer your question because i feel it moves the conversation in the wrong direction. however, i know how irritating those kinds of responses can be, so i'll share a little.

 

his talent as a healer is rapidly increasing.

 

he's becoming a talented empath.

 

he can make out the energy currents in another person's body, though he's still not skilled at manipulating them yet.

 

he can change the taste of any liquid just by placing his hand over it for about 30 seconds.

 

in a row of 5 overturned buckets he can consistently find the stone or small cup of water hidden underneath.

 

 

...and other stuff. not really important. what's important is that as he develops he realizes that parlor tricks don't bring fulfillment. he believes in genuine service, just as i do, which is why he's decided to stay with me and develop as a healer.

 

improving the lives of others is real magic. we learn so much about ourselves and about life when we dive into the depths of another.

i've been meditating a little over 2 years now - simply on different practices as i've been looking around for what fits me the best. everytime i end the microcosmic orbit i feel balanced and filled with energy as i store the energy safely in the navel so that no part of my body will overheat. i really am not caught up with the "fantasy" side i was just curious towards information on the subject.

 

i already feel qi and can tell when it's flowing - sometimes i feel it even when i'm not meditating or trying to. i don't know if i worded myself improperly to lead you to that conclusion.

 

 

i'm not your teacher, so it's not my business, i guess. i'll just comment a little on your response, and then i'll leave it alone.

 

any experienced person reading this thread would question the quality of your practice these past two years.

 

a.) it sounds like 'fantasy' seeking when you begin by saying you learned about it in kung fu flicks. it sounds even moreseo like 'fantasy' seeking when you presume that this relatively basic martial arts practice is, as you put it, "terribly secretive."

 

b.) your "messing around" practice of visualizing earth qi creating an inner ivory-colored body and then going over to hit stuff to see if 'it works' makes sense only if you're a novice. two years of real meditation would never have led to this experiment of yours.

 

 

c.) perhaps you just didn't explain explain everything, but i'm not convinced that your practice of the orbit is safe. you didn't even mention the perineum or the tongue. and your description of what you feel afterwards is an effect of deep breathing, not orbital flow.

 

 

i'm a person who has was proficient at iron shirt. i'm a person who teaches safe orbital flow and who has experienced (in the past) some of the negative side-effects of incorrect practice. i'm not wasting my time here just to be judgmental of you. but you need some real training and deeper understanding before you can lay claim to two years of meditation experience. your own words betray that fact.

 

feel free to ignore me. but i still say that you should slow down. keep it simple. you're missing out on a world of learning experiences by thinking you're further along than you actually are.

 

in the end, it's your path. it's your choice.

Robert Peng is the only one I know of. Do you guys know any others? Can you provide links?

 

Thanks

 

 

it may help if you could define what you mean by "documented abilities." healing ability is very important, but it's considered to be a rather low level of cultivation.

 

wong kiew kit teaches publicly, and many of his abilities are documented. perhaps the most impressive one being when he and one of his students split clouds in front of a crowd of hundreds. it made the paper.

 

if abilities where what i was looking for in a public teacher, i would probably train with jerry alan johnson. his sincere pursuit of the internal arts is unquestionable, in my opinion. i have never seen an american (or many chinese, for that matter) with the exquisite precision that he demonstrates in his forms. true mastery at the level of body mechanics.

 

his textbooks have become the standard in the hospitals in beijing.

 

he doesn't publicly display his 'higher' abilities, but who knows- you might be able to dig something up if you search. all i can say is that i can vouch for this man's skill.

 

he doesn't advertise himself as being a god like so many others, and, to me, that speaks volumes about his level of internal realization.

 

only in the past few years did he begin teaching the daoist mystical arts. for decades it was his private journey that he didn't talk about much. he still doesn't talk much about what he has seen and what he can do.

 

 

he's the most skilled AND most genuine practitioner i know.

 

 

 

and... um... given the nature of the posts you've been making, i can't help but feel like maybe it's power, and NOT awakening, that you're looking for.

 

what is it that you're really seeking? i'm not looking to judge you; i'm just looking for honesty.

 

 

i have students who come to me looking for power all the time, and i don't necessarily turn them away. some i do, but not all. in fact, my highest student first came to me claiming that he wanted to awaken, but in a very short time it became clear that he wanted the magical abilities. not because he was a bad person, but because he thought it would validate him in a way that he hadn't experienced in his own life. we talked through it over a period of months, and now he has more ability than he's even explored yet, but it doesn't matter because now he has experienced the radical consciousness, joy, and peace that can't be gained by superficial manifestations of power.

 

 

it's perfectly okay to want whatever it is you want, but it's important to clear away the illusions that you may associate with those things. if you're sincere, the process is going to transform you anyway, so it doesn't really matter what first motivates you. but self-honesty is of paramount importance.

 

if you truly just want to awaken and nothing more, there are a number of people in this forum who could give you those keys in 2-page email. it's not rocket science. it takes self-discipline and commitment. but it's not complicated at all.

 

i hope this doesn't offend in any way. i'd really like to foster this dialog.

I am not sure,but I have heard that gary clyman have some good skills.

http://chikung.com/

 

 

i don't think clyman's skill qualifies for the level of documented abilities you're looking for. if it does, you should just come train with me.

 

i know that sounds snotty (and it is!), but i find him to be extremely unbalanced and ego-maniacal. i watched one of his public talks and (supposed) demonstrations that he gave in his area. he's KNOWN for being a real pompous jerk, and he doesn't hide his high opinion of himself or his contempt for others. so at least you'd be able to see him coming, i guess.

 

to demonstrate his energy ability he took the knuckle of his index finger and dug it into various meridian points of different volunteers to see which points would hurt. different people DID respond to different points, but NO ONE (not even the participants) considered it a demonstration of his energy.

 

i have no doubt that he can manifest it to some degree, but then why resort to such a dubious demo? he does practice some real energy building exercised, but his lack of control, refinement, and especially his lack of high ability is evident to any serious cultivator.

 

after decades of training, he broke a sweat while demonstrating horse stance techniques for like 5 minutes. then he almost bragged about the fact that he was sweating so early, as if it was proof of how much energy he controlled!

 

yeah, i'm not a fan. i've only been seriously committed to cultivation for the past few years, but i would gladly take the pepsi challenge against clyman.

 

if not for his arrogance, he could easily pick up 2 or 3 books and correct most of his errors.

 

he has had some success in treating people. i don't deny that. but that doesn't take high ability. his popularity has more to do with him constantly spouting about how amazing he is than anything he's actually done.

 

in my opinion he could very well have the potential to break through to real attainment, but it won't happen if he never gets over himself.

 

but that's my take.

Heyhi,

 

do yourself a big big favor. Better not to mess around with those practices if you do not have a teacher to rely on. Regarding Chia. Some will say he teaches authentic stuff, others say: well. He does not really...

 

you will have to find out for yourself, but my advise in the first sentence holds true whichever way.

 

 

Harry

 

 

normally i would take issue with this type of advice, but i find myself in total agreement in this case.

 

you're young, and you seem to be a little too caught up in the fantasy side of cultivation practice. you're trying to take shortcuts when you don't even know what you're playing with yet.

 

if you believe in the power of it all, then you should also believe that certain practices, if done incorrectly (without proper guidance), could cause personal damage that could set your progress back a few years.

 

in my opinion, you're not ready for the macrocosmic orbit. period. at best, it's useless to you right now; at worse, you could end up with dizziness, headaches, digestive problems, and all manner of psychological instability because you haven't done the preparatory cleansing and nourishing work.

 

slow down. first learn to breathe deep, relax, embrace simplicity, and be mindful of the present moment. if you start here, and if you don't rush things, you'll be amazed by the world that begins to reveal itself to you.

 

there's so much for you to explore. don't miss out on the entire world by trying to rush to some superficial goal that seems like everything. the true everything is happening right now.

 

 

i think one of the best books you could pick up right now is The Healing Promise of Qi by Roger Jahnke. i use it as my standard textbook for all of my students. it's beautifully written, extremely easy to understand, and very thorough with the stages of qi cultivation. you can play around with a lot of stuff in there, and it's all safe. you'll learn TONS about the nature of qi and how to develop it.

 

 

first learn about qi and discover its flow in yourself and your environment. you may discover that the martial applications aren't even the most exciting. it can be a really fun exploration, so take your time.

 

if you rush, you may never get there.

after seeing a few kung fu flicks i have now seen this in a movie twice, either labeled as iron shirt qi gong or steel armour. (born invincible and shaolin martial arts respectively). i understand the basic concept of using chi to nourish your armor and absorb blows but even still it seems to fascinate me. is anyone here capable of the technique? i know it is terribly secretive so i do not expect a wide array of conversation i am just a little curious.

 

 

actually, it's not all that secretive at all. there are tons of books (some better than others) that deal with the subject as well as give training tips. shaolin still practices iron shirt, and they teach it openly. healing tao university offers iron shirt as one of their fundamentals. come to think of it, i'm having trouble thinking of any system with martial roots that doesn't offer some form of iron shirt training.

 

i don't know what fantastic feats you saw in these movies, but iron shirt really isn't all that complicated. the conditioning process is long and can be painful, but there's no real magic to it. you won't be able to stop bullets or anything. you take thousands of blows and condition your body. you pack qi in your limbs and torso to nourish your body. then you take thousands of blows to condition your body.

 

i say that more in jest; it's not quite that simple. but it's not all that complicated or mystical, either.

 

 

back when i was a fighter, i could take a bat to the ribs with little problem. i wouldn't dream of trying it now.

 

i can still break bricks, but it doesn't take iron shirt training to do that.

 

 

there were even a couple of parlor tricks i could perform, but they didn't make me special or fulfilled as i thought they would.

 

but what WAS significant was that i was less aware of the subtleties in my body, and i sustained organ damage as a result of stress.

 

let me emphasize: i did NOT sustain damage from any blow. i sustained damage from continued stress, and much of that stress was a result of my training at the time.

 

 

so it depends on the degree to which you take it.

Nice! -- although I have to mention, for the sake of traditionalists among us (I'm hoping I'm not the only one ), that some traditionalists might object to calling qigong or taijiquan forms a dance. Dances are for show, while high-level qigong is invisible, and high-level taijiquan is for hiding what you're doing rather than displaying it. So a mid-range practitioner will be able to demo the most beautiful form, a high-level master might show less, and the highest level "ti taiji," "taiji embodiment," won't show anything -- the beauty of his or her form is equal to its efficiency, which can become (in rare special cases) absolute. Like the wind whose dance you can't see, and can only guess at from the effects it has on the objects in its way.

 

However, if you're looking specifically for outer beauty, I think nothing beats Chen, with its spectacular snake-like coilings and spirals (outer "show" of peng, which of course is the part of peng that only hints at the real thing, the invisible thing)... Chen Laojia Yi Lu, aka Old Frame One, and Chen Laojia Erlu, aka Old Frame Two, aka Cannon Fist, don't go overboard with outer show of it like Chen Xinjia (New Frame) forms; which one is more beautiful to look at is a matter of personal preference. My teacher says that Yang is like a river that flows over a smooth bed of sand; while Chen is like a river that flows over a bed of rocks and boulders. High-level Chen can make a truly spectacular splash running into those boulders, but the highest level form has a kind of superconductivity -- so the boulder doesn't know what hit it as the river dissolves it in its way!

 

 

well said, my friend. and for the most part, i'm actually in agreement with you. the only thing i would quibble with is the notion that dances are for show. it think it would be more accurate to say that dances are for play. i seldom perform for anyone, even when i teach, unless i'm demonstrating a specific technique.

 

i play alone every day, and every night. and it's both healing and uplifting.

 

the forms are designed to be aesthetically powerful- beauty is a healing energy as well. it's not the whole of it, of course. but i find great joy in dancing in the fields. otherwise, for the sake of concision i could replace most forms with 'bringing down the heavens,' horse stance training, simple stretches, and tapping on the various meridian points. and that would be that.

 

i love to play qigong. i love how it feels to dance.

 

life is easier than it seems. embracing this playful sensibility is an integral part of my pathwork.

 

 

i was actually planning to get master ren's chen taiji video through ymaa at some point. the little bit that i saw looked pretty amazing, and his body mechanics displayed a real mastery of the form (though i can't see more than his implied internal process).

 

so i guess that will be my next purchase. thanks for the suggestion.

what can i say? i really love the beauty of the dance!

 

 

list the 3 most beautiful forms that you know. feel free to list more if you know a lot of truly beautiful forms.

 

here's my top 5, in order:

 

1.) wild goose I- 64 moves

 

2.) wild goose II- 64 moves

 

3.) yang style taiji quan- 24-short form or long form

 

4.) zhongxian wu's shamanic tiger qigong- 24 moves

 

and

 

5.) duan zhi liang's wuji qigong- 18 moves

 

 

 

when done well, these forms are phenomenal to me.

 

 

 

i'm on the lookout for more beautiful dances, so please share and don't be shy!

 

thankz.

I'll come down to $60 if anyone here wants to buy it... it cost me $120 so and its still new so I feel thats fair

 

 

for $60 i'll buy it right now. how do you want me to do it? through ebay or directly through paypal? or even some other way.

 

whatevs.

 

 

send me an email.

hello Hundun.

 

I wonder what is 'subversive' about your approach to spirituality and internal cultivation?

 

Would you tell us more about that?

welcome to the site.

 

 

hello, cat.

 

=)

 

the way that i see it, what's subversive about it is that i'm a bum, and so i'm hoping that i'm in good company!

 

but i'll get a little more specific:

 

 

my cultivation work is highly eclectic. taoist alchemy, tibetan shamanism, non-traditional yoga, spontaneous natural flow qigong, and a number of qigong forms that i practice more for the sheer joy and beauty of the art than anything else. i find that none of them are very different from each other, which makes sense to me considering that they all share a common origin.

 

i listen to my body, and i trust my intuition more than any warnings about the dangers of high-level practices when not supervised by a master. in the past i was not a good listener; just immature and lazy. and in that process i did hurt myself in my search for shortcuts, loopholes, and back doors. but i've come a long way since that time and i believe i understand the necessary core elements of solitary practice. this doesn't prevent me from enjoying the wisdom and company of a skilled master from time to time, but it DOES keep me from being dependent on another individual for my own personal development.

 

too often i find that people get caught up in the lineage game, which most often amounts to petty spiritual materialism. techniques ARE important, but most of the technical differences between schools and lineages are NOT as important as most think. and when there IS a significant difference, i often find that it tends to be the newer innovation (rather than the old original method) that generates the greater benefit. not always, but certainly more often than the herds of "lineage seekers" seem to realize.

 

again, techniques ARE important. but anyone with moderate intelligence can find effective techniques for whatever they may wish to accomplish. whats MOST important (or at least JUST AS important) is the quality that one brings to their practice. and if one's goal is to attain the highest levels, then it's far more important that the individual never ceases to practice than it is for them to find the "right" group.

 

 

i'll leave it at that for now.

hello to all. thought i might introduce myself.

 

i'm a student of nature and the internal arts. been studying for over a decade. been serious for the past 4 years. been really serious for the past 3. i have a real passion for the beauty of qigong, and i enjoy teaching it more than just about anything. well, not as much as my lone retreats into the hills, but still.

 

i've had the pleasure of studying with a few masters here and there, but my training and development has, by and large, been solitary. i'm a quick study, an avid reader, and my ability to manifest qi exceeds many long-time disciples of various masters.

 

although i have a number of committed students, i always tell them that training with me (or anyone else for that matter) is not necessary for reaching their goals in the internal arts. i am not a master, i don't plan on becoming a master, and for that matter, i have found that most of the masters out there today are not masters, either! i am, however, very much a philosopher. and on my best days, you might take me for a madman.

 

and this sorta brings me to why i'm here. i guess it's pretty clear that i have somewhat "subversive" approach to spirituality and internal cultivation. i'm very committed, but i'm beholden to no particular discipline. i'm a wanderer, and that's my preferred way of being. i imagine that there could be many folks like me in this forum, so i thought i might lurk around from time to time and see who's who. i may even drop in on a discussion or two.

 

 

thanks.