Sahaj Nath

Students who demand perfection of their teachers on every level (harmonious personal relationships, charging very reasonably for teachings yet not suffering financially, humble yet authoritative) have a long search ahead of them. Many have noted Michael Winn´s less than exemplary body mechanics. So what? I wouldn´t learn martial arts from him but it would be a mistake to conclude he has nothing to offer. Master Chia got a divorce. Yawn.

 

I´ve learned so much over the years from people with great spiritual refinement and (sometimes) lousy personal lives.

 

Liminal

never cared much about the personal relationships in a teacher's life. i've always found it common for excellence in one or two areas of endeavor to come at the expense of other areas. not a rule, but very common.

but only in the past couple of years have i begun to soften about things like body mechanics. i've always been a bit of Nazi when it came to that kind of thing. if you couldn't demonstrate true excellence in movement, you couldn't possibly have the necessary skill to teach. i was wrong. perfect body mechanics is not a requirement for healing, invigorating, cleansing, or refining the body and its energies. this TTB community has taught me that. took a while for it to sink in, but i'm gettin' it.

The assessing and counting constrictions of ones breath while working in practice is teetering on analytics and gym exercises for weight training - this will bring results but far less than if one is well set in the basic pattern desired and the breathing naturally settles to the practice. However - if this specific practice is founded in a well proven tradition that I am not aware of forgive me. It just appears to be contrary to my experience in breath in practice. I have at times pushed breathing somewhat but this was always superseded by results from non-effort and simple breathing alignment with the practice that happens with as much intensity but naturally.

well, gym-style breath training is not antithetical to the natural settling of the breath that occurs in practice. in fact, i would say that directly training the breath facilitates the gains that occur when no effort is being applied.

as far as a well-proven tradition that incorporates such a practice, i know that various shaolin schools train in this way. i thought tortoise breathing originated in the taoist schools, but it might be a shaolin practice as well. but to my knowledge it's a very common practice. chunyi lin teaches about the importance of slowing the breath rate. Master Si Tu Jie (Wei Tuo qigong, from shaolin) emphasizes the practice of slowing the breath, as well as Master Wan Su-Jian of Bagua Xun Dao Gong. and it's exceedingly common in various yogic traditions.

my normal, everyday rate is about 4 breaths a minute. as soon as i give it even a little bit of attention and deepen my breaths, it slows to 2-3 breaths per minute. when i apply real focus and intention, i can breathe 1-2 breaths per minute, without any strain or distress.

the slow respiration facilitates full-body breathing and full-body awareness. i think it also makes it easier to slip into really deep meditative states where breathing ceases altogether. i was just having a discussion with Tibetan_Ice about how one of the things i enjoy about sitting with Mark Griffin that i've never experienced with another teacher is how i can fall into some deep states where the breath ceases altogether. my whole body fades into what feels like a mild breeze, and then eventually even that fades away and i lose all sense of time or "i". again, no strain, no distress.

perhaps there are people who are experiencing this without training the breath, but i think the breath training really helps to open that door.

lots of other side benefits, too. like the fact that i never get sick no matter how much illness surrounds me. this has been true even before i began learning qigong or yoga, just resulting from breathing exercises i had learned from a book as a youngster.

there's a lot of good to be found in breath work. might be worth another look.

Maybe I should spend some time away from spiritual forums and literature. It might be unconsciously adding to the situation.

maybe, but i stand by my original take on your situation. especially given that you're not battling any stress or anxiety.

what you're experiencing is not a problem that needs to be solved.

if we don't welcome these changes that arise, why bother doing any of this stuff at all?

I'm interested in working with my breath more, and wondering if anybody has any breath pacer recommendations, either stand alone devices or an app. Already have a Resperate but find it cumbersome to use. Is there something out there with sound cues (so that I don't need to be looking at a screen) and very customizable in terms of breaths per minute?

 

Thanks, Liminal

don't know if you ever found anything, but i just uploaded 2 tracks with you in mind.

3 breaths per minute:

http://youtu.be/oNtH3D5oVWA

2 breaths per minute:

http://youtu.be/HvcLZO6cKqU

somebody on here made the audio tracks many years ago. i think it was mantis or sunya/mikaelz. don't quite remember. if i can find the thread, i'll post it. but these should work. 4 breaths is just too fast. even 3 is a bit fast for me.

EDIT:

it was mwight who made them. found the thread, but the links to the tracks are no longer viable.

http://thetaobums.com/topic/6125-a-free-gift-to-aid-you-all-in-your-qigongneigong-training/

hey lifeforce!

a very natural and normal part of the kundalini process. most regular people only experience what you described in times of trauma or intense stress, and so they regard it as a disorder when actually they have been shaken up enough to wake up a little bit. it's a small part of the process, but i regard it as an important part.

it's in that state that you described that you can truly begin to understand teachings like "there is no doer." even the thoughts that lead to action are understood as just part of the flux of creation and dissolution. the witness is untouched by any of it.

it's a good time to read some of your favorite spiritual teachings, if that sort of thing suits you. Bankei. Nisargadatta. Chuang Tzu & Lao Tzu. rather than imerely intellectually deciphering the texts, you may notice that you have an immediate grasp of the state or condition from which the texts were written. you may find that you have insights that far exceed the scope of the mere text.

whatever you decide, i would work with it however best you feel moved to. the more awareness, focus, and energy you bring to it, the more you root it into your self as a condition that sticks, and you will very naturally detach more and more from the everyday, even while the bulk of your daily routines remain the same. and at the same time you'll begin to expand into more intangible dimensions.

not at all an unpleasant process, if you ask me.

this talk had a significant impact on me as both a student and a teacher. it's not anything too complex, it's just beautiful. i thought it should be shared with the world.

if you're not going to watch both of them, i would recommend watching part 2 first. i personally love the whole thing, but i realize not everybody's gonna spend an hour watching a talk.

part 1:

part 2:

enjoy.

i just ordered the video and downloaded the book. it's always exciting to learn about another African American who has walked a similar path. there's so little literature out there. i know there's a long and rich history of us esoterically inclined black folks, but it's not easy to find the good stuff. i had basically just stopped looking.

i feel like this is a pretty big gift that you just gave me by posting this. i probably would never have come across this man on my own. just beautiful. thanks, Drew!

I was asking in sincerity. Not sure the reason for the touchiness. You offered up a rather vague premise , dont you think its ok for readers to want to get clarification? There is no need to over-react, especially when its based off an assumption.

guess i can respond, since he's not planning to be posting anymore...

i don't think his post was meant to be touchy. i think he's just going through an intense and uncomfortable period of self-examination. CT, you're not the reason he's no longer posting; he's no longer posting because of the insidious nature of his own motivations, that impulse to "dispense wisdom" whenever the smallest insight is gleaned.

i love don_vedo. he's a beautiful guy. it's just a learning process that he's going through right now, and he's doing better than most would, i think.

i'm sure he'll be back around whenever he feels it appropriate.

just wanted to offer a little clarity.

"My Guru ordered me to attend to the sense 'I am' and to give attention to nothing else. I just obeyed. I did not follow any particular course of breathing, or meditation, or study of scriptures. Whatever happened, I would turn away my attention from it and remain with the sense 'I am'. It may look too simple, even crude. My only reason for doing it was that my Guru told me so. Yet it worked!"

--Nisargadatta Maharaj

"When you are deluded and full of doubt, even a thousand books of scripture are not enough. When you have realized understanding, even one word is too much."

-- Fen Yang

the qualities you bring to your path are more important than the external particulars. books can be a waste of time. they can even obscure what is otherwise simple and organic.

and,

a single book can prove to be all a person needs to accomplish the Great Work of Awakening.

know thyself. absent that, any path can be a waste.

thank you all for the responses so far. let me explain a little more what my intent was when starting this thread:

in the coming months i will be turning my home into a full-time spiritual sanctuary. what was uncertain was whether i would be offering pathwork that is relatively narrow in scope and specific, or open-ended and exploratory. i thought that maybe there were a lot of bums who were interested a more serious, concentrated environment, but who still wished to explore a breadth of different systems and philosophies. so what i wanted to offer to TTB folks was an opportunity for brief periods of deep immersion in different systems so that they can better discern what speaks to them and what does not.

also, i wanted to be able to offer a flexible environment to accomodate people who have different backgrounds and would like to share with others or practice alongside others who are practicing something totally different, but all in the same spirit and in the same concentrated environment.

absent any significant interest in that kind of thing, i will be limiting my space to students who are interested in a more narrow, in-depth path of cultivation, not unlike an ashram or monastery.

so yeah, that's it.

GreytoWhite,

i will be contacting you soon. surely we can meet up in the near future.

i've been thinking about this for a long time, and i haven't committed to anything just yet; i just want to get a sense of how many bums might be interested in something like this.

i'm thinking about opening my house up to some serious students who would like an immersive type atmosphere. i could comfortably house 7 students. tuition would be very affordable, like $200/week or $600/mo.

laptops would be prohibited and phones will be off most of the time. meals will be mostly vegetarian, and all produce & grains will be organic.

curriculum will vary, but expect a movement system or two, standing practice, shaking practice, meditation, mantra repetition, book study, and some really good discussions. and, of course, direct initiation/transmission.

both women and men would be welcome, but they would be housed in separate rooms.

thoughts? interest?

I am reading Jeff Foster's, "Deepest Acceptance." The other night I picked it out of the 2 dozen or so texts I have next to my bed from the library, and it inspired my previous thread.

 

Reading it I learned I need to stop resisting the present moment. I became aware that I was constantly thinking about the future or the past. Or I would try to avoid the world by putting my nose in a book or some ear buds in my ears. I have only started the re-programming process today.

 

Reading the next chapter, "The Ocean of Acceptance" a question came to mind. So this thread will be really short, for once.

 

My question is simply this... What if there is no life after this one? What if there is only this one, physical existance and nothing else afterward? How would that affect being in the present moment?

 

Because I could no longer claim that I am the ocean and the waves of present moment experience can not affect me. There is no I, in this example, no Higher Self, to live on, to remain unaffected by the happenings in the physical realm. In this example there is only my me, my physical body.

 

In other words, what if this whole "present moment" thing is a big pile of dog doodoo? Not saying that this is the case, merely asking what if. Looking for a clear perspective on this.

couple of things come to mind.

first, you should not claim that you are the ocean or any such thing anyway, not unless that is your experience, i'm a spiritual cultivator, driven by the desire to know through direct experience. beliefs without the work and direct experience is impotent. the practices we engage in are not charades to occupy our time or give us some false sense of control in a chaotic world; those practices are technologies that give us direct access to the wisdom and experiences written about by the masters who used them before us.

second, if this is the only life we live and the only time we get, then the present moment becomes even more precious, not less so. the present moment is all that we have. it's the only place where we live, the only place where life is happening. and the opportunity to realize that is getting smaller by the day. i don't know about anyone else, but i don't waste energy fantasizing about other lives or magical realms. when students ask me questions about reincarnation, i make it a point to tell them something that unsettles them. death is coming, and whatever will be in the after, will be. but now is what you've got, so what are you gonna do with it?

not sure if this was the kind of thing you had in mind, but it's what came up for me.

yes, we appear to be talking about the same space, and the "rolled like a cloth" analogy is referred to as the kundala, but i'm still dubious about the term kanda, as the only place i've seen it is you and this Burley guy.

but i could be totally wrong. i really don't know the Hindu system that well. i thought i at least had that much clear, though.

What is the Hindu equivalent to the Lower Dantien?

The "Kanda".

It has the size of an bird's egg, a membrane and is the root of all prana channels.

Btw, it's the source from where the "Kundalini" arises.

the space that you're referring to is the KUNDA, not the kanda. it resides at the base of the spine.

and it's not the equivalent of the lower dantien. you don't fill the kunda; the kunda is already full. i am not familiar with any yogic practices wherein upon completion, the practitioner stores all the accrued energy in the kunda. that's not how it works.

in fact, i'm not familiar with any hindu equivalent to the lower tan tien at all. the Hindu and Taoist systems do not perfectly overlap. there are a great many similarities, but few equivalents.

i'm not an expert on the Hindu system, so maybe someone else can comment and provide greater clarity, but i'm pretty sure that this much is correct.

i sent you a PM, but just in case...

i'll totally buy it. if you still have it, consider it sold.

http://www.weituoacademy.com/index.aspx

really depends on what you're looking for. what do you consider a scam? what do you consider a cult?

i've known Jonathan for 10 years. he's legit. i almost moved back to LA in '07 to study under him.

wei tuo academy is in Claremont, which might be further outside of the actual city than you were looking for, but he's about as real as it gets as far as open-door schools with public-accessible studios. he's big on precision and discipline. you can just go to improve your health, or you can go deep with him and get into to serious cultivation.

For me that bliss and joy that you describe is always there. In excruciating mental, emotional or physical pain, while vomiting, yowling with a migraine, there is always this background of expansive bliss that is the actual nature of things. Last time I was vomiting I was nearly chocking from laughing so hard at the same time...

yes! that's exactly what it's like! it's been with me nearly 5 months now, and no matter what physical or otherwise surface drama i'm engaged in, that background of expansive Bliss is always there.

it's an awesome thing to feel understood.

But If I focus on it, I start to dissolve into that background. Unfortunately that 'sets off' or pressures the feeling of the trauma I still carry, and while I can say that the state is deeply healing for countless lesser 'issues', it just does not unwind the really deep stuff.

Feeling the two at once, is like being torn apart...

 

Actually, I should add that it was not like this at first. It was later on, as the feeling of the state, dare i say 'wanted' deeper access to my body that it really became an issue. Or maybe i should say that as I really let myself open 'bodily' to the experience that trouble first started brewing.

 

I am still a fair while off being able to really let myself experience this state.

 

At the same time, I have to thank this state for finally opening the door to that hurt part of myself. I knew it was there, but years and years of work previously did not open the door. And it did.

well, i guess shortly time will reveal just how much trauma i've really worked through and resolved up to this point. i think i'm ready for that test.

i think what has been most healing for me, practices aside, has been my commitment to genuine openness & honesty. even when it's not pretty, it's real. that trait that so many people dislike about me has taken me a long way in terms of deep healing. there's no internal process of "well, an X-type of person would respond/behave in THIS way, so i should adjust my behavior accordingly." perhaps that process works for some, but i think it's encouraged far too often and, for me at least, it leads to disconnection and short-circuits the spiritual process.

don't know if that will be helpful or even well-received by anyone, but there it is anyway.

 

If its truly life-threatening, then the very possibility of that should give you clues as to the direction it would go. In other words, there is a purpose for all things.

 

"Bliss" can be a subjective aspect of siddhis in general. "Grounding" or "conducting" (as in a conduit) that energy is worth the effort. What Im saying is: investigate it on your own terms and try not to jump to conclusions, especially those provided by other people, and even more especially those based on fear of any sort, and most especially fear of death.

 

In that sense, there is no point in saying too much here - but dont get caught up on this. Even many decades of experience with this sort of thing is really less than a drop in the ocean. If you can clearly recall multiple lifetimes, then you may have good reason to get excited about your development - otherwise I would advise caution and proactive humility.

*nods*

understood. fair enough.

Good to hear such good news from you my brother

Its called 'Spanda' in the KS texts. Although scholars sometimes seem to refer to spanda as vibration there is a more subtle {and blissful} nuance to the term.

that actually helps a lot! better enables me to contextualize this state in terms of Mark's lectures. not that i need to find a place to fit, but it makes his talks on spandas that much more relevant.

That is just, Fantastic. Congratulations. So good to hear. That is how you know there is a difference between your average small bliss junkie, and big or your 'Prime' Bliss experience. The bliss is coming from understanding and recognition, not just from energy fiddling, deeper concentration achievements or devotional results.

indeed. i figured if anyone could confirm the difference, it was you. cool.

 

Trust the state brother, focus on it, give it attention, but don't hang on to it, and it should deepen and deepen all by itself.

yes! that's exactly what i feel naturally inclined to do, and it intuitively feels like it will deepen all by itself.

Hopefully you don't crash and burn like I did

THIS!

yeah, this is why i wanted to hear from you on this whole thing. i was pretty sure that you've already been down this road. yet having been there and then having lost it, you still maintain it's a legitimate unfolding. it certainly feels that way, but it helps to hear it from someone like you, so thanks.

it helps me to treat as precious, to work to properly tend to the unfolding, and to know that it will slip if i'm careless. truth be told, it could slip regardless. so while it's here, i'll certainly give it its due.

 

The truth of these statements may be understood from an information-theoretic perspective - it is very much so mathematically sound!

 

 

Also of interest...

 

 

fluidity,

part of me wants to respond to SOME of the things you've written, as some of it is at least interesting, but it's all convoluted, and unnecessarily so because what you're trying to explain really isn't that complicated if you abandon such gross abstraction. it makes me not want to comment on anything you've written because i have to address the entire framework in which it is presented, and ain't nobody got time for that!

i mean, feel free to keep posting as you see fit, but i was hoping to avoid the kind of non-experience-based abstraction & theorizing you're engaging in. i tend to enjoy the abstract and theoretical, just not in this particular instance.

 

"Bliss vibrations" is also what pulls consciousness out of the physical body during OBEs instigated with unbroken awareness (i.e. during waking state). So you might want to make sure its not just instinctual, animal fears getting in the way and masquerading as "higher knowledge".

there is no fear at work in any way here, although there was a moment when i questioned if it was a brain tumor just because the shift was so tremendous and then it never left. but even that consideration didn't hold any fear.

Translating your awareness into another medium can be fairly intense and unfamiliar to the conditioned daily mind, as its not commonly addressed or even "purely" biological anyway.

 

ive been pulled out of the body by bliss energy plenty of times and im still here to talk about it.. but maybe i died then i just reanimated myself.. or maybe im possessing my own body! whoa...

i know what you're talking about. i've been blissed out of my body before. i used to take my students through that just to show them that we weren't missing out on anything by steering clear of Kunlun. but that's not what's going on in this case.

maybe the way i described it was just unclear. maybe i'll try again later.

and THANK YOU for replying with some of your own experience rather than just theory!

i'm still hoping more people (*cough*-Seth-Trunk-*cough*) will comment with some recognition and offer their insights.

@ Hundun

 

Has this experience become stabilized? From this "not sure if i would find this description credible if i wasn't immersed in the truth of it even as i type these words", it sounds like it isn't just periodically experienced when meditating or whatever, but is an immersion in your entire being in the midst of activity.

 

Needless to say, the Vedanta teachings, especially from modern Advaita Vedanta teachers such as Nisargadatta Maharaj and Ramana Maharshi, would be really helpful to you at this point in time.

YES. it seems to be a stabilized condition. it's been nearly 5 months now. the intensity of bliss and disidentification with the body-mind varies a bit with my attention, but the general state is constant.

still hoping some folks will chime in with their experiences and views on bliss vs Bliss.

That is quite a realization, Hundun.

 

I am wondering, though, since its non-local, does that not indicate somehow that it might be beyond experience, in other words, there is only Bliss-Fullness, there is no 'me' to experience it as such.

hm... well, the thing is... there IS a 'me' that is experiencing and understanding all of these things; it's just that the 'me' isn't limited to the body-mind. in terms of awakening, i think the current unfolding belongs to the realm of savikalpa as opposed to nirvikalpa. identity isn't dissolved into nothingness, but rather infinitely expanded. it's pretty awesome, actually. but the absence of a self-consciousness, as is indicative of nirvikalpa samadhi, has not been realized yet. i don't know if i'll get there in this lifetime, but i guess we'll see.

If we already are the essence (and we are, since we already realize the fundamental nature of Reality is but vibrational frequencies), is there a need to bring the experience to light? To do so, in my view, sets (or potentially incurs) karmic limitations and residues which will impede (maybe impede is not the best descriptive term -- more like a potential impediment), the 'resting' or 'relaxing' into the essence itself.

not sure if i get your meaning, but 'what we already are' has no real bearing on the need to bring certain things to light. i still have this relative life to live, and all the so-called limitations that come with that. i still feel alone in the relative world and feel a natural inclination to either find others that see & experience what i do (and more), or TRAIN others to see & experience what i do (and more). i don't think this has kept me from being able to relax into the essence itself. it's not all or nothing.

As long as the experience is not limited to a 'me who is experiencing...", i think that is ok. There are experiences, but at the same time, there are the causes which float them (brings them to the surface). To fully unite the causes and the experiences/results of causes, the 'me' has to drop, otherwise the depths cannot be plumbed.

 

Once the depths have been reached, is there more that needs to be done? From where i stand, not really much else to do but ease into, and remain there, as the nondescript (that which you call God).

 

Your thoughts?

mixed feelings about this. i think scripture would agree with you, but i don't feel any inclination whatsoever to even attempt to get rid of the "me who is experiencing." if it needs to dissolve, then i trust that it will as a result of staying true to my path. as it is, my spiritual practice is probably 60% natural flow, 30% devotion & longing, and 20% everything else. that's right. i give 110%

thanks for the great post.

It is good to be cautious regarding a great many words used when speaking of Practice.

 

It can also be a very good reason for a group setting because often words and ideas will be very clearly defined.

Obviously their are exceptions to the utility of this as some well defined concepts can box in ones thinking if the

choices are not well refined. That said - you will find that about 99% of the quotes within these walls are from teachers who had teachers and group settings at least for a time.

 

The word Bliss is one of the most misunderstood words and actually a very real barrier-word for many regarding Awakening.

How can an Awaken one claim as they all do (in our translations) that they maintain a bliss state even in the face of the deaths of children, famine etc???!!!

Because:

"The Sun does not dim because the Earth is having a bad day."

(D.Doyle))

 

Rather than Bliss which connotates incorrectly a quality associated with Good Feeling vs Bad with the addition of a sort of carefree-ness.

Think instead of a constant high vibration - it is neither good nor bad - it is a high vibration - so high that it is light.

The note is always there - it is a pervading note of light.

This note is not recognized as Bliss by a great number of Awakening Beings because the word Bliss is far from the actual texture and tone. And many who feel Bliss - a bliss more in line with the connotation are more frequently not in an Awakening state.

 

Hi Spotless,

 

On the bliss/vibration thing, can you say more? This is really interesting to me because I recognise what you're talking about but I've not come across it expressed this particular way before.

 

I'm finding - as you said - that this is far from the 'actual texture and tone' of bliss as I might have thought, might have believed, once upon a time. I could describe the texture and tone as I experience it, but to be honest it's mostly a really annoying thing to have to work with. Or to work around. I haven't figured out which yet.

 

Thanks

such a good and important topic that i thought it good to create a new thread around it.

this year has been incredible for me in terms of growth and the dawning of Insight. one area in particular that has really opened up for me includes the subject of bliss. i'd love to get the perspective of others on this matter, but i hope that those who reply can speak from their own experience moreso than parroting the words of others.

as per my experience this year, there is a Bliss that is non-relative, like a Bliss Prime, whose only opposite is Emptiness. its "actual texture and tone" IS blissful in the way that we all understand the term, i.e., the bliss is ACTUAL and neither conceptual nor abstract. yes, it is vibrational in nature, but the term Bliss is a more apt description than "higher vibration."

in terms of my own experience, it arises from a root-awareness that this body-mind is just a tiny ripple in the Ocean of existence. the awareness is not localized in the body, but takes in experience through ALL bodies and generates new experience for all bodies. the substance of that experience is Bliss. it's like a friction. all existence is motion. all motion is vibration/friction. and all vibration is bliss. so the relative crushing agony of a mother suffering the loss of a child is indeed bliss in nature. the painful cries of the drug addict dying in a pool of his own vomit in some darkened alleyway is indeed bliss in nature. in fact, ALL arising phenomenon radiates pure bliss, merely by virtue of existing. however small or great the motion, its essence is recognized as Pure God rubbing up against Pure God. everything that can exist not only does exist, but MUST exist. because its the only function, the only purpose, of the Universe. God alone exists.

that's as best as i can translate my current state. not sure if i would find this description credible if i wasn't immersed in the truth of it even as i type these words.

relative bliss relates closer to joy and love. Bliss Prime relates closer to our notions of death. i can feel the vibration pulling my consciousness out of this body-mind. without egoic attachment, my physical body would quickly die. i can actually feel it. i recall Mark Griffin talking about this once in a talk on Vajrayana, but i thought he was full of it. he talked about how after he attained realization under Muktananda, he needed to learn how to stabilize his being under the guidance of (the previous) Kalu Rinpoche. without the techniques to stabilize his consciousness in the physical body, he would have lost his body.

at the time his words just sounded like some nonsense he read in a book somewhere that wanted us to believe, so i dismissed it. i didn't see the point in him even sharing it if there was no way to verify the truth of it. but it turns out that there IS a way to verify the truth of it: direct experience.

for the record, this is NOT a claim of enlightenment. this is a true and candid description of one aspect of my current state. i assume there are others here who are experiencing or have experienced this, and others still who are in equally profound states that differ from what i have described. i'd love to here from all of you.

so if this topic derails, whatevs. but methinks our relationship to bliss in its many forms might be a really good focal point.