Sahaj Nath

it's basically just this. at 2:30.

as the energy increases the session becomes more and more spontaneous so that the energy is moving me rather than the other way around.

EDIT:

okay, she made it look all pretty and nice, but when it gets real, it's more like this:

shaking, chanting, and singing. those are probably my favorites.

the poll doesn't interest me. you already stated what you believe to be the one correct answer.

but about equating Karma Yoga with Wu Wei... i'd like to get your take on that. could you elaborate?

we are not Ramana Maharshi. he awakened within a matter of minutes of applying self-inquiry. this is one of the most difficult paths with a tremendously HIGH rate of failure.

it takes a very special quality of mind to awaken via self-inquiry. and we here in the west have a HUGE problem with believing we're special. self deception is so easy. false consciousness is so easy. the real genius of the Matrix is in how it has everyone believing that they can be Neo. that they ARE Neo, in fact.

the truth of the matter is, there's no question to ask, and there's nothing to look for. to ask any question is to ask the wrong question. it may very well be different within the Indian culture, but here in the West, this is the truth. meditating on koans of another culture is just as ridiculous.

so many people will waste entire lifetimes engaged in what they've determined to be a shortcut.

great sharing! i'm sure this will be of benefit to many people starting out and facing the daunting tasking of choosing where to begin without wasting a lot of time and money.

welcome to TDB.

it wasn't my intention to come off as adversarial or condescending to you, but your response is pretty heavy-handed. can you really not see how your initial post that started this conversation might make someone wonder if you were open to another way of seeing things? somehow you've interpreted our exchange as jockeying for superiority. you can have it.

"Then they're not fully healed.  The cancer is gone, but the bad balance isn't. Is that hard to understand?"

nope, not hard to understand at all. someone is cured of a terminal condition, and your attitude is, "yeah, but their balance is still off. how can that be considered healed?"

this is a reasonable position to you.

i've got nothing.

Oops. about that "unfair" statement i made above: i was unclear. i wasn't saying i thought you were unfair to post it or to offer it; i was trying to express that i thought it would be unfair for ME to criticize his words as a general argument removed from its context. sorry about that if it came across like i was calling you unfair, Jetsun.

for example, i or any number of K-yogis could make counter-arguments that he was never intending to address, and i feel like it would be intellectually dishonest to seize on something like that. context matters. had he been talking to me or a gathering of K-yogis, i'm sure he would have been more thorough, measured, and nuanced. he would have considered the multitude of approaches just like you did in giving me the benefit of the doubt.

yeah, i just wanted to clear that up.

Just because something is only a state doesn't mean it's not useful or inherent or even necessary to the big picture.

 

Whatever we do to get to the uncontrived is ultimately going to involve using certain skilful contrived processes to end unskillful contrived processes, until the last block can finally implode on itself naturally. We should all use however many stages in between as we find useful. Nobody can stop contriving as an effort of will, it can only be a natural fruition.

 

If someone is honestly close to ready to let go at the deepest level, they can be quite direct. Others cannot. Both are following a right route for themselves, so long as the bigger picture is kept in mind.

 

For some people, actively working on things like kundalini (obv. not forcing) is helpful. Others prefer to let it occur naturally. It seems to me that kundalini inevitably occurs along the way, and catalyses a lot when it does, but it is only one aspect of the path.

damn good points! this is pretty much why i incorporate so many different types of spontaneous, natural flow practices. i do believe that they are the fast track to an organic, uncontrived conditon.

Ramana Maharshi on raising Kundalini up the Sushumna:

 

Question : How to churn up the nadis [psychic nerves] so that the kundalini may go up the sushumna?

i'm not going to criticize Ramana Maharshi's perspective because i said i wouldn't express apprehensions about your teachers. but i think it's fair to say that context is important here. he's talking to some person who had some specific beliefs about how realization works. what he said to this guy was appropriate, especially given that the guy is asking for instructions which have NOTHING to do with what or how Ramana teaches.

i kind of feel like it's unfair to take his words as a solid commentary on all yogic systems that use K activation instead of what it actually is: a conversation with a student who came to him with all the wrong ideas about what Ramana Maharshi does as a master.

Ramana Maharshi is speaking the truth of his system. his response was the correct response for his knowledge community addressing that particular person asking the question.

This is the kind of thing I can't entirely get on with.  Why would the final product of a healing technique be a mangled form that'll just harm you again?  If you have a bad relationship with gravity, then you haven't healed all the way.  If you can't even stand up straight, how can you be considered healed?  It's ridiculous (sorry, no offense, this is just my thinking).

 

I guess I learned about healing differently.  Step 1 cleanse, step 2 flush, step 3 energize.  Step 1 and 2 wont reach everywhere if things aren't aligned, Step 3 will harm you if the energy is knock'n about making tense spots and whatnot. 

 

It's not just about 'judging' a teacher, it's very important to healing.  Basics are everything.

i'm happy to have a real conversation with you, but if there's no openness on your part to consider another way, then there's no point.

no, you didn't learn differently. you learned the EXACT same way that i did, too, which is why i was such a nazi about it for so long. but what i've been able to learn over the years, from the testimony of students here on the boards as well as direct witnessing of sick people healing themselves, is that the way you and i were taught is extremely limited, and unnecessarily so. maybe you'll come around in time, and maybe you won't. but consider this:

an obese guy needs to change eating habits and to shift into a more physically active lifestyle. what guys like me and you have been saying all these years (essentially) is that he needs a nutrition expert and an Olympic caliber athlete in order to really accomplish anything. that's just not true. the guy can exchange the soft drinks in his diet for tea & real juice, and commit to walking around the block every morning, maybe every evening as well. he could do this with a friend or while listening to music or encouraging self-help lectures. regardless, he's going to experience some real benefits. and as his energy increases, he's gonna want to do more. maybe one day he'll want to become a serious athlete, but if not, that's totally fine as well.  it's all so much simpler than guys like us tend to make them.

more directly, i've watched dozens of patients put their cancer into remission of the past... 5 years, let's say. many of them still have bad balance and never wrapped their heads around the internal body mechanics of tai chi or qigong. and yet they show up daily, sincerely, and surrender to the process in a way that has nothing to do with mastering body mechanics. you can pull up videos right now of cancer patients in china or san francisco who are now in remission from terminal cancer. they've been at it for years, and they don't move anything like masters. they're still gettin' it done.

this is why i consider myself a student of principles rather than systems. in the beginning i excelled in the area of body mechanics, and it enabled me to pick up other styles very easily. but as a healer, i never limited myself to chinese gong fu. i learned about the shakers of Bali and the Kalahari shamans, and how they related in principle to Yao Feng Bai Liu (Flowing Breeze, Swaying Willows). i saw the miraculous power of spontaneous movement and free expression in a way that i hadn't learned even when studying a form that even emphasizes relaxing into  randomness and chaos (Wuji Hundun).

it's a bit of a paradigm shift to realize that we don't need to micro-manage every inch of our bodies to experience healing and transformation. i'm still a lover of excellence and precision in movement, but i no longer see it as the necessity i once did. 

Re:

-----

"reverse-osmosis purified water for the entire house so that you're drinking and bathing in the minimum possible amount of fluoride."

-----

 

Be careful.

 

Water is a solvent, and purified or distilled water is a very strong solvent.

 

The minerals filtered (sedimented) out of distilled water are necessary for human metabolism. When you drink distilled water, your body will provide the missing minerals from your body in a buffer reaction.

 

Some limited amount of this is okay for many people who have been eating refined salt and eating lots of meat animal and having eaten other solvents like sugar and alcohol and have deposits in the body from redistribution of detached (in blood, buffer reaction) minerals - but in a fairly short time this can become very unhealthy.

 

Best is most natural and un-processed water you can find - maybe a reliable aquifier or mountain spring, etc.

 

-VonKrankenhaus

i know you meant well, but sometimes it's exhausting to share anything around here. 

that's all.

it's a judgement call. you say aquifers and mountain spirngs are the best. well, i have trust issues, so i'm happy to go with second best where i know for certain the water is pure. if there's an issue with minerals being leeched  from my body, i can add clean and healthy minerals to my water. or, i can simply accept the "risks" of really clean water and see how it goes.

sorry. i'm just tired. i should maybe unplug again for a while.

haven't read through the suggestions already shared, but here's how i get down:

reverse-osmosis purified water for the entire house so that you're drinking and bathing in the minimum possible amount of fluoride. black seed as a dietary supplement. breathing exercises that incorporate the 3rd eye.

that's it.

I know a lot of people and historical masters would agree that what you say here is the truth, yet the people I have been working with say that if you bring kundalini energy to the upper chakras then it can lead to vast openings on that level and personal states which can be useful for breaking free of limitations and conditioning, but is still limited to subtle levels of ego and separation consciousness and isn't the same as true awakening, and therefore ultimately not satisfying to the heart. Having not done such kundalini practices myself I cant say what is the truth from my own experience, but I thought I would put that out there.

well, then it's a good thing i don't work with those people then, eh? LOL!

seriously, though. pick a path. they'll all have their pitch for why their way is great and why some others fall short. none of that moves me, though. one thing that i know to be true is that the qualities we bring to the table are far more important than the schools we ultimately commit to. (assuming, of course, that we're talking about well-established, legit systems)

so i have no arguments against the people you're working with. if they are the knowledge holders in your life, then you should believe in them, trust them. no good will come from me expressing apprehensions about them. you can take refuge in the satisfaction that you have a superior path. and you should.

and i can do the same.

Magick, Book 4 by Aleister Crowley. which is technically 4 books in one, but still.

Liber Aleph by Crowley

and i still have the 10-volume Equinox series to get through. some day i will finish them.

unless i don't.

Even if you stimulate a fully blown active kundalini energy all it will produce are states, which may be nice and blissful or could be horrific, but they are still temporary states which even in the greatest mind blowing rapture will still be confined by some level of subtle egoic seperation. I find it more useful to look for that which is ever present, or before or beyond all states, which also may help a great deal grounding and putting in context anything which arises from any energies in the body which become activated through the awakening process, which also opens up the energies naturally anyway without you forcing it.

hey, i'll be the first to say that it's good that you're satified with your path. it's a beautiful one. i just happen to be in the midst of this one, and i trust the revelations that i've had so far that indicate the masters before me were on to something.

and, just to be clear, it's NOT just the arising of temporary states. that would be a waste of time. the end result once everything gets cleared out is realization. those prior states are no more the point in this path than they are in yours. plus, many sincere students in this type of path DO also look for that which is ever-present, that which is untouched, unmoving, and unchanging in the midst of all the phenomena that comes and goes. that's not missing from this path. it's not a requirement of this path, as it will arise as a natural result of  sadhana and the K process reaching completion, but it's not completely absent.

besides, if the energies open up anyway, as you say, then you're not going to just by-pass all the cleansing experiences that result prior to the complete opening. so you'll contend with any number of temporary states as well. i honestly don't see a whole lot of difference.

Personally, I don't think that Kundalini is well-defined. I find definitions ranging from the ascent of a specific energy up the spine to connect with the crown to a wide range of mystical experiences. I think this is in part due to the high value placed on Kundalini awakening, such that people seek to interpret their own experiences as a sign of Kundalini awakening. 

 

I suppose my question for Hundun is: as this is an area you've devoted considerable time and energy into over the years, what do you see as the defining and commonly held characteristics of Kundalini awakening? 

good question!  maybe i do take for granted that we all have a general working knowledge of what Kundalini is and what it's characteristics are. but you're right about people wanting to claim kundalini as a sort of status or acheivement, and that's gonna inevitably generate confusion and misunderstanding.

the first question is, what is Kundalini? Kundalini is a specific energy that lies dormant at the base of the spine. Awakened Kundalini is when that energy becomes active in the body and begins working it's way through the entire system, but most significantly through the spine and up to the crown of the head. there is almost unanimous agreement on this definition.

now, that being said, what are the defining characteristics of Kundalini? this is a bit trickier because the awakened K has an impact on just about EVERYTHING in the body at one point or another. so some characteristics, though they may indeed be a result of K activity, just aren't definitive enough to be worth including.

i as a general and incomplete template, i'm gonna defer to my late friend El Collie, and i'm gonna go ahead and eliminate a couple like headaches and digestive problems.

 Muscle twitches, cramps or spasms.

 

    Energy rushes or immense electricity circulating the body

 

    Itching, vibrating, prickling, tingling, stinging or crawling sensations **particularly in the spine**

 

    Intense heat or cold ** particularly in the spine**

 

    Involuntary bodily movements (occur more often during meditation, rest or sleep): jerking, tremors, shaking; feeling an inner force pushing one into postures or moving one's body in unusual ways.  (May be misdiagnosed as epilepsy, restless legs syndrome, or PLMD

 

    Alterations in eating and sleeping patterns

 

    Episodes of extreme hyperactivity or, conversely, overwhelming fatigue

 

    Intensified or diminished sexual desires

 

    pressures within the skull

 

    Numbness or pain in the limbs (particularly the left foot and leg)

 

    Pains and blockages anywhere; often in the back and neck

 

    Emotional outbursts; rapid mood shifts; seemingly unprovoked or excessive episodes of grief, fear, rage, depression

 

    Spontaneous vocalizations (including laughing and weeping) -- are as unintentional and uncontrollable as hiccoughs

 

    Hearing an inner sound or sounds, classically described as a flute, drum, waterfall, birds singing, bees buzzing but which may also sound like roaring, whooshing, or thunderous noises or like ringing in the ears.

 

    Mental confusion; difficulty concentrating

 

    Altered states of consciousness: heightened awareness; spontaneous trance states; mystical experiences (if the individual's prior belief system is too threatened by these, they can lead to bouts of psychosis or self-grandiosity)

 

    Heat, strange activity, and/or blissful sensations in the head, particularly in the crown area.

 

    Ecstasy, bliss and intervals of tremendous joy, love, peace and compassion

 

    Psychic experiences: extrasensory perception; out-of-body experiences; pastlife memories; astral travel; direct awareness of auras and chakras; contact with spirit guides through inner voices, dreams or visions; healing powers

 

    Increased creativity: new interests in self-expression and spiritual communication through music, art, poetry, etc.

 

    Intensified understanding and sensitivity: insight into one's own essence; deeper understanding of spiritual truths; exquisite awareness of one's environment (including "vibes" from others)

 

    Enlightenment experiences: direct Knowing of a more expansive reality; transcendent awareness

 

**Cycling between periods of emotional panic and periods of deep calm**

 

EDIT: **parts added by me**

as i said above, this is far from exaustive, but these are among the most common PARTICULAR experiences.

i would say that you need have experienced a minimum of 6 of this symptoms to even bother with consideration, but 10 or more would be pretty conclusive. i've experienced every single one of these except for one.

so that's kind of a technical assessment of determining if the K is truly active. but there's another definition that i like, a definition that underscores why shaktipat traditions are considered practitioners of Kundalini Maha-yoga. and it's this:

an awakened Kundalini will trigger spontaneous and continuous yogic processes in the body. that's it.

you can forget about everything else. if this isn't true, it's not Kundalini.

that's my preferred frame of reference for how to know if the K is awake, and it's fairly definitive when you think about it. it's as close to solid definition that we're going to get, i think. thoughts?

good stuff, phore! we have a similar understanding of how it all functions. at least to some degree.

couple of things, and i only point them out because i feel that they're significant:

The nature of the kundalini experience is a spiritual/ psychic experience.  I once knew a girl who was laying in a tent with someone who was expeirencing a full blown Kundalini Awakening.  While the person experiencing Kundalini, reported full bodied orgasmic ecstacy, a rainbow colored light snake, projecting into a higher realm, and visions of Kali, the girl laying a few feet away experienced nothing of the sort.  This indicates that the Kundalini awakens in an individuals mind and consciousness.

this is a problematic inference. the fact that the girl lying a few feet away experienced nothing CANNOT be extrapolated to all kundalini occasions. plenty of instances defy this inference, so much so that some schools offer warnings to students who have partners that don't practice because the K activity can be contagious. yes, K can and eventually does awaken in an individual's mind, but the process is NOT mere a mental one. it's very much physiological.

additionally, plenty of people don't have that kind of vivid mental imagery at all.  dramatic imagery and archetypal symbolism are not definitive of kundalini.

now, the other points you make based on this premise are still good and interesting points. it just doesn't all fit quite so neatly into a little box is all.

This is an important observation, because it suggests that all reports of the Kundalini that we possess must be subjective, because they must have all occured to individual subjects.  I recognize that the effects of these experiences can be viewed by others, such as Kundalini active individuals glowing, becoming more open and loving, experiencing physiological changes, ect, but the physiological changes result from experiences that take place in individual minds. 

again, no. the reverse is true. the mind experiences are a result of the physiological changes.

The nature of Kundalini to act in the higher centers, as well as the visionary nature of the experiences themselves suggest that DMT from the pineal gland is largely involved in the process of Kundalini Awakening.  If DMT is involved then it will lend not only the rich mental visuals of the dream state, but also other properties of the dream state as well.

 

The most relevant property of dreams to consider in this context is the tendency for dreams to conform to the dreamers expectations.  This property is commonly observed by lucid dreamers and is discussed by Stephen Laberge PHD in his book Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming.  In his book he notes that if he expects that one of his lucid dreaming techniques will work in a certain way, then it does for him.  This same technique will not necessarily work in the same way for others whose expectations are different. 

this type of reasoning is just too reductionist, and the evidence you laid out to get here is not nearly as supportive as you'd like it to be. this would have been a much better post had you posed exciting and interesting questions rather than try to declare all these things to be true or fact-based. is that fair? i don't mean to come down too harshly because you do have some interesting stuff here; it's just the way you presented it as true and/or factual was just not the best means.

This is a critically important observation if we belive that DMT (Dreame Hormone)  is in any way involved in the Kundalini Experience. 

if DMT is IN ANY WAY involved, then there are some interesting things worth considering. but it DOESN'T mean that DMT explains all Kundalini phenomena. okay, i'm running out of steam here. kind of a long post you made.

...  For KAP students, who dont believe in this possiblity, it doesn't happen.

 

This is another example of how expectations shape the experience of Kundalini, 

 

Love and Light

Tony

you've got some good ideas, and i like what they make me think. but you're pushing so hard for the answers that you're not appreciating the questions. you've gotta stop taking one or two cases and then trying to extrapolate to all of humanity. it just doesn't work. picking out isolated pieces of info or limited interpretations to support a very specific conclusion doesn't work either.

i'm sorry. because i really did like your post. i just see a lot of problems with how you presented everything. people in my real life tend to have their feelings hurt when i do this kind of thing, so i'll back off.

I personally like to keep the differences in as much clairity as the similarities.  I think there is enough unique about kundalini to merit it being considered it's own thing, but belonging to a family of paths which utilize energy latent in the lower parts of the central channel.

 

Both tummo and kundalini yoga use speak of causing the winds to enter the central channel and the reversing of prana and apana at the navel, or slightly below, which cultivates inner warmth.  They even use the same breath ratio.  Yet the descriptions diverge here.  Kundalini is held to give samadhi when it reaches the crown, yet tummo melts the white drop which then drips down, giving bliss.  Now, is this merely the academic nitpicking you speak of?  I don't think so, seeing as Mark Griffin distinguishes between the red drop at the navel which is used in tummo and the kundalini which is a coiled serpent at the base of the spine, and the "cool lake" of kundalini at the crown from the white drop just below the crown.  In terms of technique, kundalni is stimilated by khecari mudra, which is not used in tummo practice, and there is no notion of tummo being something that can be awakenend in you by someone else and from then on you do nothing but surrender to it, like there is with kundalini.

 

It seems that they are working with different aspects parts of the same system (5 winds, left right and central channel).  Same system accounts for the similarities, different aspects of the system accounts for the differences.

then we'll just have to agree to disagree then. *shrugs*

you like to keep the differences in. i don't. you acknowledge they're dealing with the same system, which is the basic point that i was making. the rest isn't very significant to me.

when he talks of bliss merging with emptiness to attain buddhahood, it's no different from shakti merging with shiva to attain realization. the names are different. the techniques to get there are different. the reference points for the techniques to get there are different. yet they are the same thing. the same system of the body.

spiritual evolution is an organic process for which the body is naturally designed. sages of different cultures finding and using different reference points and different techniques to achieve the same ends only makes sense. i'm far more interested in the similarities than the differences for that reason. my interest in the differences comes only when i think combining aspects of one with another can produce greater effectiveness.

and as per CT's question, i didn't assume that he was quibbling over details. i thought he was asking about specific traditions that focus directly on the mechanics of the body's energy system as a means to enlightenment, as there are many effective traditions that don't waste any time with it, like Theravada and Zen. i could be wrong, but that's where i thought he was coming from.

Would you happen to know which specific Tantric & Tao traditions detail that Kundalini is conducive to spiritual awakening? Links, articles, commentaries that support your statement will be much appreciated. 

kind of a perplexing question coming from you. you're one of more well-read people around here, so it makes me think....

"IT'S A TRAP!"

every single tantric school where shaktipat is a thing teaches that kundalini is essential to awakening. and wouldn't the taoist equivalent be the Kan and Li and the Buddhist equivalent be Tummo? i'm willing to bet that the differences are mostly just academic.

but Lakshamjoo, Muktananda, the Nath Siddhas, whoever originally wrote the Guru Gita, Dhyanyogi Madusudandas,...

from the Arcane Archive:

 

3. So does everyone agree that kundalini awakening is necessary forenlightenment?This view is held in the diverse literature of Kashmir Shaivism and inother Hindu Tantric literature. It is found in the literature of the HathaYogis and the Nath Sampradaya. You will find similar views in many Buddhist Tantric works. In addition this view is held by recent spiritualfigures such as Shri Ramakrishna, Swami Sivananda, Paramahamsa Yoganandaand Swami Vivekananda and of course by contemporary kundalini yoginsthemselves.Nevertheless there are some dissenters from this view. These include SriChinmoy, Da Free John and Gurdjieff.  Then there are many other spiritualpractices, such as Zen, Vipassana meditation that consider kundaliniirrelevant.

Da Free John (Adi Da Samraj) received shaktipat from Rudrananda and Muktananda, and while he may not have focused on Kundalini per se, a key element of his method was INTENSE darshan. so again, the distinction is only academic.

EDIT: **just looked up Adi Da's take on Kundalini. he DID, in fact, offer shaktipat to his devotees. he referred to it a Ruchira Shaktipat which he believed was superior to all other shaktipats. well, his ego aside, he was definitely a proponent of the Psycho-physical anatomy (kundalini) as a necessary path to realization.** he's drawing distinctions without a difference.

EDIT: Clear Light of Bliss by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. how did i leave that book out. it talks all about the various winds, channels, and channel wheels. his union of great bliss and emptiness to attain buddhahood is the same thing as the union of Shakti and Shiva.

i read your words and i'm left wondering if English is your first language. that's not intended to be mean; it's just that it's difficult to follow your thoughts when some of the same words are shifting meaning in different contexts. i find that to be a common point of misunderstanding with people for whom english is not their first language.

it's understandable if you find this tiresome. there's been a lot of sniping in this thread. a lot of bickering just for the sake of bickering. so i DO appreciate that you bothered to respond at all. and i promise you that my only motive is understanding. i'm not trolling you or anyone else.

Krishnamurti taught that change can only happen when we are Choicelessly Aware and not forcing Choiceless Awareness.

Fundamental to "the teachings" which came out of that vessel, Krishnamurti, was no "me" or "self"

He did posit an ultimate reality and a relative reality and he stated that for the ultimate to be, the "me/self" had to die.

the word "choiceless" i find a bit cumbersome, but i'm basically in agreement with this. so is everyone else who has debated with you so far in this thread. see, THIS "selflessness" is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from the "i want to serve humanity with no regard for myself" type of selflessness. the one you describe here is clinical, whereas the other is moral/dogmatic.

So Hundun, let's share:

First, I don't really know your perspective spiritually speaking.

 

It does appear that your are a syncretist

 

My caution: Be careful about combining different spiritualities IF that's what you're doing.

I have my own views and I tread cautiously with these matters.

aw, don't worry about me, i'm doing fine. in my view there's only one spirituality, and every culture's wisdom regarding it has a place at the table. the Siddhas of ancient and present time are known for their heretical, ecclectic, and often unique approaches to spirituality. it's not for everyone, but it does work for some.

Second, Anyone today can read a book about Kundalini from a Vajrayana perspective, Shaivistic, Yogic or Western "Rosicrucian/Alchemical" perspective.  So What?  Words are words.......What actual Kundalini is, is debatable!  Ego death is not debatable.

i think if anything, the opposite is true like i said earlier. it would not be difficult for us to agree on what kundalini is. it's a tangible phenomenon that triggers various processes in the individual. it's been pretty well-documented at this point.

the concept of ego-death is trickier. the clinical definition of ego doesn't always match up with the spiritual definition, and different spiritual groups may disagree with each other as well. but in this instance i can understand what your meaning is.

the problem, i say again, is that you can interchange "ego death" with "selflessness," but "selflessness" does not always mean "ego death" in the way that you've used it at different times. makes it difficult to follow your thinking.

Third, The proof is in the pudding, the actual fruit or phala of the actual Kundalini (if it exists) actually having had been manifested.

and yet there are folks here telling you that their Kundalini IS awakened, and you've just dismissed them. that runs completely contrary to this point, doesn't it?  i could spend pages describing what i have undergone and what yogic processes are still spontaneously unfolding within me, but you don't seem prepared to accept any of that as legitimate.

In this 3 ringed circus of a discussion, I have not heard anything about being SELFless which means what?

 

Nonduality which IS the dissolution of the "me/ego" not the promulgation of siddhis & riddhis through a particular "Kundalini" sadhana or quasi-sadhana.  Every path which teaches that siddhis/riddhis manifest in the course of a particular sadhana also says to not pursue those things but ultimate reality which is not the power manifested in a siddhi or riddhi.

 

That is the point of Advaita Vedanta/Kashmiri Shaivism, Jnana Yog and of Dzogchen/Mahamudra...Ultimate Reality.

nonduality is the natural condition that is always already the case. when you define it as "dissolution of the ego," it doesn't really make sense. there's a lot of confusion of terms there.

and i'm not sure what your point is about siddhis. i think you're assuming people just want to awaken kundalini for magic powers or something. i honestly don't think anyone has stated that. and if they have, they are in the minority. but be careful not to create a false dichotomy of people who are either seeking power or egolessness. that's a false contruct and a gross oversimplification of the views being shared here.

i think this pretty much responds to everything else you wrote as well, so i'll just leave it here.

EDIT: it occurrs to me that you didn't exactly respond to my comment. you just kind of abandoned all the moralizing language of compassion and service and stuff. but that's precisely the stuff i was taking issue with. *shrugs*

Kaivalya Upanishad seems to speak my language. it also emphasizes devotion to the Guru, and i don't have a problem with that, just that it's very old world and perhaps not quite as applicable today and in the West in the same way that it was then and there.

Not by work, nor by progeny, nor by wealth, but by devotion to him and by indifference to the world, does a man reach immortality.

Retire into solitude. Seat yourself on a clean spot and in erect posture, with the head and neck in a straight line. Be indifferent to the world. Control all the sense organs. Bow down in devotion to your Guru. Ten enter the lotus of the heart and there meditate on the presence of Brahman—the pure, the infinite, the blissful.

Unmanifest to the senses, beyond all thought, infinite in form, is God.

 

The seers meditate on him and reach the source of all beings, the witness of all.

 

He who knows him conquers death. There is no other way to liberation.

CT and others, I believe that in a certain way or analogy one could inter-change the K word with Dharma... having said that I think only a misled person could believe that the Dharma could be raised only for themselves.

actually, it's very misleading to conflate Kundalini with Dharma. doing so just kills any intelligent discussion. Dharma is just too slippery a concept and opens the door to all kinds of dogma & circular reasoning. when talking about K we can agree that we're generally talking about the same energy and process. it's more clearly defined, i think.

plus, "only for themselves" is part of the false notion that i'm arguing against. the very process of spiritual development is a process of ever-expanding the self until it is all-inclusive. from ego-centric, to social-centric, to ethno-centric, to national-centric, to world-centric, to cosmo-centric... each phase being more inclusive, more expansive, until ultimately the self is fully identified with ALL. at the level of the supra-causal, there is no distinction; everyone and everything is always, already everywhere.

Many westerners do not know how to channel the K energy efficiently and gets into all sorts of trouble, like falling into a pit full of fire ants. Cultivating devotion is the safest, most sublime channel for directing that energy - unfortunately, this is a practice, or a way of being, alien to most westerners, hence the on-going struggle with most who are K active in the West. 

 

For example, someone going to India for Kundalini Yoga and Shaktipat will be seriously advised to learn how to deeply and reverently generate Devotion as the mainstay of the path so as to avoid the many dangers associated with a non-devotional form of K practice (i was told). 

i just don't believe that this is very meaningful anymore. Kundalini Shakti is here now. established. and there are fools in both the West AND the East who do not know how to channel the K energy and get themselves into trouble. but there are also brilliant, non-traditional minds here in the West who for years have experimented, innovated, and distilled the core principles from old and unnecessarily dogmatic ways. 

EDIT: and also in India, the Siddhas were legendary for their unique, innovative, non-traditional ways which occasionally their students would later turn into new traditions. this still occurs.

it's up to the individual to do their due diligence. but generally speaking, we know and understand more today than we did hundreds of years ago. and we have the ability to lay all the major traditions & systems side-by-side and study them in a way that we never have before. for all of our shortcomings here in the West, this is a real strength that we have.

and this is NOT me saying that tradition is wrong or bad; i'm merely arguing that tradition is not the only way, and it never has been.

i agree with basically everything that has been said about Bhakti Yoga so far...

but it's STILL not what i was talking about.

maybe at this point in the thread it doesn't even matter anymore, but i was trying to make a specific argument for the OP to address, and i don't want that argument to get lost in the suffle.

so this time i'll leave GOD/TRUTH out of it, in hopes of making it a little more clear:

i am driven by the desire to know things. i want to know them for myself. i wish to take nothing on faith, but to understand the universe directly, not unlike the same motivations that many scientists have. for me nothing is taboo and everything is open to experimentation purely for knowledge's sake.

i want to understand the universe in all its dimensions, and i want to understand myself as an integral part of the universe. i feel a deep drive to develop an understanding that is as boundless as the universe itself.

it is for these reasons that i have sought to raise kundalini.

Actually, in some sense, Bhakti Yoga (complete surrender in devotion to knowing God) engenders the dissolution of the small self in the service of God Consciousness. Many Indian saints and yogis profess to serve humanity thru that intimate connection with the Divine source.

 

Not saying everyone has to follow this way.. but from my understanding, without Bhakti, the raising of Kundalini would be fraught with problems.

eh, that muddies the waters a little too much for me. Bhakti Yoga is about intense love, devotion, and worship of a specific diety. that's not the "desire to know GOD/TRUTH via direct experience" that i was talking about. Bhakti Yoga is a practice; what i'm talking about is a disposition. the language may be similar, but they are very different things.

i agree with you that Bhakti Yoga has that quality, but that's just not what i was talking about. surrender, selflessness*, and service might happen as by-products of my desire to know and experience TRUTH/GOD, but they are by-products and not my purpose.

I was wondering how this "new" thread started! LOL

 

Great!

 

So, No one here so far can honestly say "I want to be completely selfless and serve others out of altruistic love" as the answer as to WHY? they want to "raise their Kundalini!"

 

There we have it.

 

So the issue becomes this: Work on being selfless and not selfish saying "I want to raise my Kundalini"

 

Blessings upon all who read this,

Stefos

i didn't read too many of these posts, and i'm probably going to regret commenting, but...

what does "selflessness" have to do with the raising of kundalini? because it's something that J. Krishnamurti said?

???

that doesn't even make sense! it's empirically disproved by just about EVERY person who has ever risen their kundalini.

in a non-dual reality where GOD ALONE exists, do terms like "selfish" or "selfless" even have any meaning?

my highest aspiration has never been to "selflessly serve," as you put it. my spiritual life has been driven almost solely by the desire to know GOD/TRUTH via direct experience.

you seem to attribute an importance to our species that i do not. i think it's quite acceptable for us to destroy ourselves entirely, if that is to happen, and i don't think the universe will care any more about the extinction of our species than we care when black ants and red ants commit genocide.

to quote my favorite fiction book of last year, at the end of the day, we're all just "barnacles on the container ship of consciousness."

my natural drive is exploration, discovery, and the search for Truth. it's been that way my whole life. given where it has taken me, you'd be hard pressed to convince me (or any other yogi or taoist who has turned away from the world for the same reasons) that i'm wrong to go with this natural inclination.

now, some people ARE driven to serve others or the planet the same way that i'm driven to know and understand. their path is gonna look different from mine. but neither path is wrong. it feels so obvious and intuitive that it shouldn't even need to be stated.

I have been practicing Qi Gong and Nei Gong mostly from books and online videos for about two years now. I do feel great benefits of this practice, however, all these benefits are strictly qualitative, internal and subjective. What I would like to find is some way of quantifying my process to see whether I am improving.

 

I remember that in one of Prof. Jerry Alan Johnson's books, he describes a test where students of medical Qi Gong have to change the acidity in a glass of water, and the change of acidity is measured with special paper strips (Litmus paper, is that it?).

 

At any rate, do any of you have any experience with this particular test and how to go about practicing this?

 

What else do you do to measure, gauge and quantify your energetic practice?

i should have met you 7 or 8 years ago. i was big on "testing" my students in ways like you described. such tests can have their place in a school or system, especially those where the goal is healing. the quality of the energy being emitted is extremely important and too often overlooked.

i just looked at your profile page and saw that your father recently underwent surgery and chemo. it's because of this that i'm responding to you.

where do you live, generally speaking? i may be able to put you in touch with someone in your area. also, what are you experiencing currently in your practice that makes you believe you're ready to test it? do you have a regular practice regimen?

something you can try:

if you've acquired sufficient skill to emit qi from your palms, you can line up a few empty shoe boxes, turned downward. place a cup of water underneath one of the boxes, then use your hand to scan over the boxes and see if you can feel the difference between the box with the water underneath and the others.

once you feel ready, have someone hide the cup underneath without you looking, and see if you can find it. a glass cup and purified water are best, i think. IMO, this is quite a bit easier than controlling the quality of the energy you're emitting.

as for how to perform the test you described, the most important component is PURIFICATION. cleansing qigong practices and cultivation of virtue. you'd have to try a few different experiments for yourself. but if your qi emission is strong enough, you can alter the pH of water. you can even alter the flavor of water and other liquids. the real skill is in controlling HOW you alter the water or liquid.

there are some folks who emit strong energy, but they don't seem to get results in healing. others have comparably weaker energy streams, but they are actually more successful. it's about the purity of the energy, the purity of the vessel. a person with poor or incorrect practice habits/attitudes can make some illnesses worse or more stubborn, rather than better. the ability to fine tune and calibrate the frequency/quality of the energy is something you're not going to learn from a book. not well, anyway.

your efforts are better spent cultivating love, compassion, forgiveness, and acceptance until you can find a teacher. when you develop those qualities into strong personality traits, the ability to calibrate the energy is less important.

feel free to send me a PM if you'd like to talk more about it.

for the record, i don't test students in such ways anymore. i feel like such methods did more harm than good in terms of ego development.