Sahaj Nath

I dunno Hundun. I think many paths have much to offer and the less inconvenience that comes with (i.e. rabid fervent bigots) IMO the better:-)

 

Besides, as far as I can tell, becoming enlightened pretty automatically puts one in heresy- of pretty much everything. Which, I reiterate, is the point.

I KNOW, RIGHT?

well, i certainly don't blame you for feeling the way you do. but i know of no other tradition that has mapped the nuances of the spiritual landscape as accurately as can be found in buddhism. not to mention the FLEXIBILITY of so many different traditions, approaches, lineages, ALL of which can lead you to the same enlightenment. like my boy Bankei, who took the zen route at a time in Japan when enlightenment had died out and all that was left were religious scholars. he was one of the masters of his time who did it from scratch, and he wiped his ass with most of the formalities. a true heretic. i LOVED that he rejected the Koan system on the same grounds that i do! i never thought i'd find that anywhere.

but at the end of the day, enlightenment is in the territory, not the map. the map is just a tool of confirmation so i know that others have discovered the same things i have discovered. then i just keep right on doing it my own way, with confidence that i can complete the path without being bound to a particular tradition.

no worries. i won't be recommending any readings or anything. if you are happy with your life just as it is, then fuck anyone who tries to tell you differently. there is no evolutionary imperative that requires you to follow anything but what YOU decide.

Well, Max essentially said that you could do Kunlun 1 to TV or music (using Mongolian music in his workshops) as "training wheels" to distract your mind and get you out of your head. I don't know about TV, but the music actually worked well for most participants (many of whom were meditative n00bs)..

 

Of course, I think the next level is dispensing of the crutches and just dropping out of your mind on your own...instead of merely distracting it.

 

I think as you progressed in the system, you would go deeper into stillness and quietude. Level 3 Kunlun is all done while sitting in full-lotus.

 

All my own personal practice now (including Kunlun) is done in complete Zen-like stillness and silence and I barely have any reactions anymore..

i get it, but it's also at least in-part what i take issue with. max was all about bliss during the seminars. bliss was the goal. happy feelings. not awareness. so yeah, you can watch TV and get all that cool phenomena going on, but that doesn't interest me.

i don't doubt how your practice has progressed. i just wasn't a fan of the teacher is all. but i don't really have any hard feelings about Max anymore. i know it's hard to tell when this type of thing comes up, but it's true. but what i won't allow to happen on my watch is for the practitioners of Kunlun to re-write the history of what took place. it's great that the school has changed and that things are more together, but let's not pretend that the past was anything other than what it was. there has been a learning curve, and there's no shame in that. but let's not pretend otherwise.

of course, vortex, this isn't directed at you. just in general.

Sifu Jenny's way speaks to me. people looking for max's way should go to max. that was my original point to taodancing, anyway.

Form what I remembered from the workshops: It is fine to practice Kunlun with TV on if it helps or if you have no other time. Kunlun movement quite often happens on its own when I was watching musical TV videos. However, TV is not a requirement for Kunlun.

 

I usually do Red Phoenix meditation with Kunlun - I am not doing Kunlun to avoid meditation. I do not longer do Zen or Vipassana as these practice were too gloomy for me. I have very severe ADHD, too hard for me to sit still for long, so I choose what is easier and more natural for me.

 

Meditation is good, but the many hours of sitting Zen & Vipassana requires leaves no time for the physical exercise.

not really sure what you're attempting to clarify here. i made a post responding directly to you, but you're responding to a more general comment i made in communication with joeblast.

i get that TV is not a requirement for kunlun. not really sure why that needed to be clarified.

but then you're just RE-ITERATING what i've already commented on as being a painfully misguided notion about zen (and vipassana, for that matter). i explained a little bit why i believe that, i mentioned the concept of Samu as BEING zen practice, and as Samu being a step toward LIFE being zen practice. that's NOT just sitting for hours being gloomy.

i'm happy to discuss the matter further, but at least respond to what i've already written, cause you're kind of skipping right past my points and just repeating yourself.

Hundun, my mind plays like a movie projector on loop daily. With all due respect, especially because of a condition that will remain unnamed, I face my anxieties more than most people could even imagine.

Even those who meditate.

 

Now I realize you have to work at meditation. Different forms I have tried... I've tried Zen, counting breaths, holding breaths, candle gazing, yantra gazing, Nichiren, other mantras, etc. While each have giving me "something". It doesn't seem to me like I'm there yet.

 

One thing I guess that came closest to the mark was visualization. Seems to be a good bit of that on the Daoist sites that I've seen so far. When doing the meditation I feel it more. Whether it be 15 mins, a week or months.

 

I'd like to thank everyone for their ideas and I'll get to Googling. I also hope I didn't make anyone uncomfortable talking about my personal life. I thought it only fair though because my responses and initial message were somewhat vague. Thanks for all your replies.

dmattwads is right, you'd be surprised at how personal we get around here. so whatever you're comfortable with totally fine.

maybe a week or so ago there was a conversation started by a newcomer asking about the importance of visualization. i thought i'd leave you the link so you can read it and take from it what you will.

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/17272-is-visualization-important/

Thanks for the replies guys!

 

What are my goals? Well, I'd say mentally, physically, and spiritually more healthy. Overall, contentment would be great. I'm a very anxious person and would like to be calmer.

 

Lerner, I agree with what you say about ignoring our own traditions. I tried to incorporate some of my own tradition's more mystical side after some poking around. While some of it was interesting, I'd say its lacking for me personally. I have for some odd reason always been drawn to Eastern Thought. Really, can't explain why.

 

I'll definitely look into Winn and Chia. I'm also now looking for a form of meditation that suits me. Feel like I've tried 1000 kinds. But, I'm sure there's 1000 more I haven't.

about meditation:

what exactly do you mean by "suits" you? if you're looking for a practice that doesn't eventually bore you or make you more anxious, then you've probably misunderstood the purpose and the process of meditation. you say you've tried lots. well what have you tried, and what was the problem with them?

i highlight this because this tends to be a major issue among beginners, so much so that they stay beginners for years until they figure it out, IF they figure it out. facing ones own neuroses is not a comfortable task, but that's exactly the work that is required to achieve the overall contentment you're looking for.

too many beginners feel themselves getting anxious and think something must be wrong. well yeah, something is wrong, and that's why you need to meditate, in order to face it, accept it, and release it, or, more accurately, allow it to release itself. with time, everything spontaneously arises and ultimately self-liberates.

i'm a huge fan of vipassana meditation because it's very easy to find good information on it, and there are lots of groups that practice it. tons of books and videos.

if you wanna feel a little more taoist in your practice, check out Relaxing Into Your Being by BK Frantzis.

I dunno man, he sure is giving it a godawful rep from my perspective.

 

Besides, isn't one "allowed" to be free from religion as much as anything else? I thought that was the whole point of "liberation". If it's only "liberating" in ways other people tell me it is then it ain't. Do you get it?

totally. as i've said many times, i pride myself in being a heretic. i am not a buddhist, but there is just TOO MUCH yummy goodness to be found within buddhism to write off the entire thing. that's all.

i look to buddhism for CONFIRMATION moreso than INFORMATION. but my path belongs to ME and no one else. besides, according to the confirmations i've taken from buddhism, i seem to be doing just fine.

um... Kate?

yeah...

um. i would just like to restate that Vajrahridaya is NOT representative of the whole of buddhism. please don't write off the entire tradition. please?

fiveelementtao,

very valuable comments and suggestions. you certainly saved me a lot of time and energy. i'm glad i waited a day to respond. you put it better than i probably would have.

2 things:

i would expect a master of vajra yoga to not have to wear a jacket and gloves in the snow. when i cultivate outdoors, my energy keeps me plenty warm, even in the snow. gtummo should be a given if you're advanced in the thunder path. and i know for a fact that Santiago teaches it. so what gives?

also,

no one who has put in the years of work to achieve real mastery in qigong or yoga would place those credentials equally alongside the title of reiki master, which isn't earned through hard work, but can be acquired in a couple of weekend seminars (or even online these days). just doesn't match up. makes the whole set-up come across as new agey and suspect.

i've no doubt that you have skills if you studied with Santi and Susan. but for realz. you wanna dial it back a bit.

5et is right on the mark.

I think this was tossed out as a joke of sorts - I've only learned these things right from Max and he's never suggested less than full awareness when doing the exercises. The spontaneous is (~=) Jenny's yi gong and she's always said (from people I've spoken to that have trained with her) that awareness while doing this is very important and its ostensibly not even yi gong if you're doing it mindlessly.

yeah, that's Sifu Jenny's take, which isn't in dispute in any way. like i said, maybe this is another area where things have changed in max's camp, but watching television during practice certainly wasn't thrown out as a joke a couple of years ago. it was almost held up as proof of the system's superiority because you didn't have to do all that boring, serious stuff. i'll bet Yoda remembers, if he's still around. Cameron, who used to be very active on the board prior to kunlun, stated that Max specifically recommended Ren & Stimpy while doing practice because it would stimulate your childlike laughter and connect you to the bliss. i'm sure there's still some posts lying around that haven't been erased. (Cameron had a thing about erasing his posts.)

here's one:

Max has reccommended watching Ren and Stimpy videos if you have trouble getting your practice going. It's all about letting go and smiling

but there were a few people here who practiced in front of the TV, on Max's recommendation. things might be a little different now, but it wasn't meant as a joke when it was happening.

you were around in those days, so i know you know what i'm talking about.

I know of a few students of Max attaining the Golden Dragon/Phoenix Body with his practice. Max teaches other methods besides the spontaneous practice. I have seen pictures of Kan activating his Golden Dragon Body. Kan is Max most senior student.

 

What is just as important as the ultimate goal of enlightenment is the side effects of practice - improving health and contentment in daily life. Does it improve your health sitting hours of Vipasana or Zen each day? I did not see much of it for the years I was involved in a Zen Center. When I live at the Zen Center, I saw too much petty dogmatic politicking. Well, that was one center many years ago. There must be better Zen practitioners somewhere.

um...

i can't comment on the specific center with which you were involved, but you have got some painfully misguided notions about Zen practice. does it improve your health? ABSOLUTELY. it will provide you with a foundation of MENTAL HEALTH that you'd be hard-pressed to achieve outside of a meditation tradition. there IS NO contentment in daily life without it. and likewise, there is not commitment to healthy living without it. i'm not sure if this is your intent, but it would be a bit absurd to criticize meditation from not being a vigorous workout routine. meditation is the DISPOSITION THAT YOU BRING to your workout routine, and to life in general, and it maximizes benefit. surely you learned about Samu while at the center. that is how LIFE ITSELF becomes practice.

i, for one, have no interest in chasing after dragon bodies or engaging in a new age tradition that encourages watching television during practice, rather than deepening one's faithfulness to the moment at hand.(kunlun people- if that recommendation is no longer being used, then i apologize.) the entire universe is this moment, and there is sufficient profundity in this moment such that treating spiritual development as a rat race for attributes misses the point entirely.

if you're looking for what Max has to offer, then you should be with Max or one of his facilitators. personally, i'm allergic to the guy, which is why i'm so grateful to Sifu Jenny Lamb for coming out into the open and offering what she has. but if you expect to genuinely grow, Sifu Jenny doesn't let you opt out of meditation. only an agitated mind would even want to opt out.

i've already saved my space for the 5-day retreat in May. and i will leave a review here, just as i did after meeting with Max, although this time, i'm pretty sure that my review will be positive.

Thanks for your reply. I do not have the "More Info" button on my screen. This may be due to my junky DVD player. Well, I just have to figure some way to get to the info.

are you playing it on your computer? if not, try that.

the main menu should have 3 options: Play All, Chapters, and More Info. i imagine that the DVD's are all made from the same master file, so it would be really strange for your copy not to have the button. i purchased my copy literally minutes after she made it available, so i know i have one of the earliest copies. i don't know. *shrugs*

if there really is a defect, i'm sure she will replace it. just make sure is all.

Items 6 & 7 were missing the the copy of DVD I got. Does anyone else have those items on their DVD? I really like to know what are the best times to practice according to Jenny Lamb.

yeah, you probably have it as well on your copy, but that part of it is in text. there's a chart of the time of day and the corresponding organs, and there's pages of written information on the DVD.

EDIT:

the list of additional info is on the 2nd page after you hit the 'More Info' button. so if your main screen HAS a 'More Info' button, then chances are, you DO have all the extras. you just gotta read to the bottom and keep clicking.

lol Zen is not a slow method if you know what you're doing.

FTW!

i might have to add this to my signature.

additionally, if you don't approach the practice with a zen or vipassana type quality of awareness and recognition, you're not going to get very far in the practice. you'll have some cool experiences, but you won't break through. Sifu Jenny says as much herself. if you're not bringing that quality of awareness to bare on the practice, then it is not Yi Gong.

hmm... just by the bed? limited to 5? Okay:

Self-Liberation Through Seeing With Naked Awareness

Xing Yi Nei Gong

Quintessential Dzogchen

Secret of The Vajra World.

Bankei Zen

EDIT:

okay, i can't just leave it so incomplete without acknowledging my MAN-CRUSH on Jerry Alan Johnson.

also:

The Essence of Internal Martial Arts, Vols I & II

by JAJ,

and

Chinese Medical Qigong Therapy Vol 5: An Energetic Approach to Oncology

also by JAJ

okay, i can rest now that i've outed myself again.

Yes, this is why I recommended doing calm abiding meditation first and getting into the lower jhanas first, before attempting visualization meditations.

 

This is what I did, and I find getting into the lower jhanas is a very important step.

 

 

Yes, yes... I do agree... which is the why for my recommendation.

I guess you didn't read my posts very well.

yeah, fair enough.

i read your first post and thought it was a good one. then your second post kinda threw me into "parental guidance" mode. whatevs. it was fine. just ignore me.

There are lots and lots of masters of Vajrayana with power over the elements and the weather who teach that it is quite necessary in that sense.

 

It is not necessary for enlightenment though.

yeah, but they've already cleared the garbage out of their head. these types of statements confuse folks who are still at the bottom of the mountain climbing up.

once a person has cleared away the debris, my guess is that they wouldn't have to ask about visualization. people too often go off in the wrong direction by attributing unnecessary importance to this type of thing in the early stages of their development. one such person has even commented in this very thread, advising the original poster how important it is to visualize, EVEN THOUGH HE HIMSELF IS CURRENTLY AFFLICTED WITH SPIRITUAL PROBLEMS THAT HE DOESN'T YET UNDERSTAND.

so for reasons of that nature, i don't find your parsing of the issue to be very helpful to a beginner. some get excited about what they might be able to achieve, and then they start looking for shortcuts and either derail their practice, or get into some real trouble.

Totally and completely not needed or necessary. It is a limitation. What IS needed is to learn to calm the chatter. Who are you talking to in there? You? You already know everything that the chatter is about because it is all based on your perception, so why play it over and over like a stuck record player?

+1

Visualization is not necessary. There are many, many, many types of meditation. visualization is one style. Emptiness is one style but there are many more. Find the style that best suits you. Don't try and fit yourself into a mold. If you have difficulty calming the chatter in the mind, then USE it. Mantra meditation is very good for this.

 

My suggestion is to investigate different styles of meditation. some types of Yogic meditations and mantra meditations allow you to use mental activities so that you don't have to wrestle with the "how do I shut my mind up?" mental mind f***k.

do some research...

Good luck...

good stuff, both of you. no need for me to throw my loose change into the mix. just a nod.

@heaven chi

I think there are simply several approaches to a problem and some people who try to help only focus on one; their personal favorite so to speak, according to their own beliefs and world view.

 

You can take the karma approach: Your actions cause reactions, so you can either say you are responsible for everything that happens to you, or you can say that it's not that one-sided, because the same would apply to others, too. This is probably more a self-empowerment tactic, using a certain world view as a tool.

Then there's the defensive approach: You can solve every problem by becoming immune to it. But the feasibility of this is of course highly dependant on circumstances - on the power of influences and the level of one's own strength.

And then there's the interesting conflict of being born under certain stars, which kinda clashes with the view that you are responsible for everything that happens in your life. This is highly philosophical, because after all, the whole universe might be a system of mere cause and effect, which is even expressed by karma theory.

 

And all these are in effect just views, strategies. Ways of seeing the world which you choose to use or not, and acting accordingly.

In my personal opinion a problem-solver should consider all the aforementioned factors and always look for even more factors.

 

So if you think you are under black-magic attack, one should consider that it is your imagination and that it is not only that, but more. Probably hard to determine with certainty, so one shouldn't focus too much on only one possibility. Also, it could be a combination of both. I've not read the details about your case, but it could be that there's an attack against you in a kind of generic, shapeless form and that triggers more substantial manifestations in you.

 

Well, I hope my somewhat random musings are of any help to you. I felt like writing something, and now I'm done.

yeah, this will be my last post in this thread. heaven chi and i still keep going back and forth on things, but i DO sincerely believe that he is plagued with an affliction, or sorts. i just don't think it's quite as... relevant... as other matters i've addressed with him.

i kind of like how you laid out a few different approaches as an example, and i think you're right that this type of thing happens where all contrary views are dismissed.

what i think i've been trying to say is, up until last night, your criticism above is exactly how heaven chi has been approaching his own condition, as if only his viewpoint and beliefs about it is legitimate. i can go there and stay within that paradigm when it proves to be more skillful, but in this case it is failing him over, and over and over again, giving him temporary relief, and each time reinforcing and crystallizing the "reality" of his affliction.

as some point you've gotta stop searching for the right amulet or mantra when they keep failing, and you've gotta re-examine your assumptions & beliefs. i think we're there.

but at this point, i just don't know if he can make such a tremendous shift. but i'll continue the dialog at least a little while longer, because now, at least, i believe that he wants to understand. so that's something.

Hundun, i have a question.. do you have a problem with students whose might have greater potential and higher intelligence than you?

 

you said you studied lots of systems and you have stripped those systems of its traditional wrappings and unnecessary elements..

 

in stripping those systems, how do you think the teachers who taught you would feel about you changing their systems due to the fact that you have greater potential and higher intelligence than them?

 

I am a heretic too and a master heretic at that .. the first rule of being a heretic however is that you must be very willing to change the rules.. not only for others but for yourself as well..

 

however, i get the feeling that you are very willing to change the rules of others but not the rules for yourself..

 

"There is no such thing as a smart human being for it is only a matter of time before their ideas are updated, changed or eradicated." - ZEITGEIST

 

Nobody's ideas and concepts last forever.. not yours nor mine.. that is the true path of a seeker cos enlightenment is an ever evolving path..

if you're a master heretic, then what are you complaining about?

just do what you do. the world is your teacher, and no one can hold you back but YOU.

i think you maybe got a little over-defensive here. i wasn't intending to insult you. but it happens.

my best teacher recognized the extent of my natural talent. he also recognized what i did not, which was where my limitations and weaknesses were. he was so harsh and unrelenting at times that, to this day, he's the only man who has ever mad me cry. i had to submit to his authority. he knew more than i did. he also believed that i would eventually exceed him, but he didn't let ME know that, because the last thing he wanted to do was feed my hubris. so he spent a lot of time tearing me down, making me do things that i either felt was beneath me, or irrelevant. but i trusted him anyway.

and now, i'm free to tear apart any damn thing i want, because he knows that i get it, and i've been tested. i've paid my dues, even with my natural talents. and i needed it, even though i didn't know i needed it at first. he honored me with the title of master in late 2007. and now he's my brother, whereas before, he was more like my father.

the last time i counted, i owned over 120 videos (and an equally ridiculous number of books) on qigong, meditation, and the internal arts of various cultures. i'm beholden to no one as i examine the operating principles of the techniques. i'm free to do as i wish with that material. and i take my responsibility very seriously when i teach others heretical approaches that go against the prevailing orthodoxy.

what you don't seem to get is that if you were such a student, i would almost be willing to pay you to come study with me. BUT, if you are unable to respect my authority as the primary knowledge-holder in our relationship (until i have decided you have sufficiently developed), and if you can't appreciate my sense of karmic responsibility for your development as your teacher, and if you don't have the patience or the humility to possibly have to perform tasks that you might feel are beneath you, then you wouldn't be very teachable.

did you get anything else out of what i wrote above? anything at all?

EDIT:

let me add this. to this date i have yet to meet a student whose intellect rivaled my own, but i'm always looking. as far as natural talent, i've had 3 so far whose natural potential exceeded mine. two of them were women, and they both dropped out. both lacked consistency and were too averse to discomfort. but the other guy is a BEAST!

i can't keep another person down without staying down with them, and i don't roll like that. anyone who finds this as their true calling gets the greatest joy from witnessing the epiphanies and the overall development of those they teach.

@Hundun

I set a kind of linguistic trap there. You didn't see what made me think of it. You didn't even deal with that, but you assumed what I wanted to say by thinking of that allegory, equaling it with your mindset.

But in fact, I was thinking about it because of the mindset I describe in the following address to 5et, about fortifying a view by believing in it, although it should be undesired from an altruistic perspective.

okay... umm... congrats?

Well, don't things like that work exceptionally well with children's fears?

And didn't you yourself talk about some adults having the comprehension of a child?

So what you do is trying to apply one approach to a problem as universally preferrable, disregarding the actual help efficiency.

i think maybe you're leaving out too much of the discussion for this to apply. and most of it was in PM and i will not betray heaven chi's confidence in order to make a point.

what i can say is, OF COURSE i understand the efficacy of appreciating the child's paradigm and acting within it! we all do. that's why we look in the closet and work whatever 'magic' we need to so they can sleep. the analogy works for the one point i was making, but not for the whole of this issue.

i really can't respond any further without going too far. all i can say is i agree with your point, but there's more to it.

we DO admonish children to keep them from harm.

And by the way, giving a child a monster-protection amulet also has the potential of stimulating its power of intent (or power of imagination or sense for phantasy or whatever you want to call it). But what is the more 'mature' answer? To tell the child that there are no monsters? This is simply not true from the child's perspective and thus is, again, only creating opposition.

And also, if the child even asks specifically for an amulet, maybe we should listen to its needs, to the childlike wisdom that is held very high as far as I know. You can still offer an alternative if the child comes back and tells you the amulet doesn't work. But don't give it the amulet and tell it that it won't work anyway and then later say "I told you". Because that's the self-amplifying of personal beliefs I mentioned here in regards to you guys and also my former therapist.

i agree. to an extent. but we're talking about an ADULT, not a child. and there are real, tangible consequences for languishing at that stage if that adult continues as he has. either the stage must be challenged, or a course-correction must be made. if neither happens, then there is some REAL trouble ahead.

What's really heart-breaking is that there are brothers and sisters of light in here who, due to their ego, selfishness and greed, would prevent others from reaching the highest levels immediately.. and some of us do have the potential to reach the highest levels cos we have trained in our previous life-times..

 

It is like.. "oh we haven't got to your level yet so how can you leave the world without us?"

 

How sad is the state of affairs..

hm...

i don't know you. maybe i'll get to know you over the next few weeks or so, i don't know. but after reading this thread of yours, i can't for the life of me understand why you would PM me about what i teach. maybe you should do a search on my screen name. i don't pull punches or sugar coat my criticisms around here, and i have ZERO problem with telling people when they are NOT ready for something.

so it would seem to me that i would be last person you would want to contact with regard to teaching.

a school of cultivation is a knowledge community, and there are correct and incorrect assessments and answers within those communities. it's not all open to interpretation OR negotiation. if you were my student, i would tell you that your thought process and your attitude within this thread is flat-out wrong, and i would debate you and tear down your flawed reasoning, and you wouldn't go any further until you could either defeat my analysis or acknowledge where you were wrong. but the temperament you're displaying here suggests that maybe you wouldn't be able to get past it.

you're not entitled to ANYTHING that ANY teacher has to offer. PERIOD. if you had already accrued the necessary merits from previous lifetimes, then you wouldn't be knocking at those wrong doors, eh? no one else can keep you from your destiny, and if you're hungry enough, you should be willing to endure WHATEVER it takes. i might have you walk in sync with your breath for the first 6 months, and then add raising & lowering the arms the next 6 months. what you may not realize is that, while the other students may look like they're doing more advanced stuff, i might have recognized your natural gift and given you a challenge that would allow you to blow right past them, IF you had the temperament to endure it. but you wouldn't be in any position to judge my motives. now, maybe that's simply not the kind of student-teacher dynamic you want, but that doesn't make the teacher selfish or egotistical; just a poor fit for YOU.

sometimes wisdom looks like crazy.

also, here's an article i posted back in '07 with regard to foundation building. i'm a better writer today than i was then, but it still has relevance to this thread:

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/3470-breathe-deep-embrace-simplicity/

They don't have to. Thinking we do is a huge misconception...in fact everything is out of our hands. Not you or I have to force our minds against themselves. Everything is working perfectly outside of our egoic locations, and no one needs to force themselves against their natural path. It is absolutely counter productive to do so. You trying to force someone else is exemplary, because you've had experience and feel that you can assist...maybe you can...but not as well as their own personal connection to the deepest-part-of-their-heart can. Following what seems right to oneself is the highest and fastest method, aside from grounding and rooting practices.

i disagree. thinking we don't is largely a 'new age' phenomenon. there ARE inferior and superior ways of understanding in our relative world. most of what you're addressing here has no practical relevance to the actual discussion at hand in which someone is seeking assistance for a problem that they themselves don't necessarily understand. a child might want an amulet to protect them from the closet monster. are we not allowed to say that there is another, more mature perspective that this child can reach? or do we just say, "maybe the child is right; who am i to judge."

but we are not just born and then wander out along our 'natural path.' it's a beautifully poetic sentiment, but it ain't how things work. we learn, we grow, we fail, and at any point along the way, we can stall and just call it our nature, right? good luck with that.

That is so true. We are only fit for our own personal path, uniquely designed by the universe.

again, poetic sentiment, but empirically false unless you're limiting yourself to the abstract. anyone who has excelled and watched others excel in any school larger than a school of ONE would disagree.

Part of that path seems to usually involve getting attracted by false paths, and then swinging back after a negative experience. Such is the way of the mind. But the way of the heart is different. That path is absolutely easy and natural for the individual, if they simply notice their feelings and just do what makes them feel good. No one is alike. This is why forcing your personal view on other people isn't the most helpful thing...I'm even doing it right now knowingly! But you know, we all like to try to help each other, as flawed and absolutely powerless as we are...(maybe I'm just speaking for myself there). We aren't the types to sit back and do nothing.

i understand your sentiment, but it just doesn't work that way. schools exist for a reason. the natural path of the heart doesn't work for the adult who has the emotional maturity of an 8-year-old. that person needs guidance.

Right now after reading all this I'm reminded of how people mostly in the past said that negroes are clearly not capable of advanced intellectual abilities and thus perfect as slaves, and that it is ludicrous trying to use them for anything else.

 

I'm curious whether you recognize why I was thinking of that allegory.

you are grossly misunderstanding my point. and i DO mean GROSSLY.

please re-read my argument.

if we were all at a dinner party, no one would take offense to someone being pointed out as the fastest or most athletic person in the room. but everyone seems to get a little uncomfortable with the notion that someone could be the smartest or most cognitively developed in the room.

i don't believe in the notion of the enlightened idiot. some folks have the capacity for tremendous growth, and some folks don't. some are late bloomers and have a long way to go, but they'll get there. and others peak early and aren't going to grow anymore.

often we talk on this forum as if everyone has an equal shot at enlightenment or at high-level attainment. it's simply not true. that doesn't fall along racial or ethnic lines, and the fact that repugnant distortions of logic were used to justify slavery has NOTHING to do with this.

my mother dropped out of school in 8th grade. her ability to take on new understanding in a way that actually expanded her awareness were limited by that fact. she was a voracious reader in the 80's, but her comprehension remained that of an 8th-grader. she was never really challenged elsewhere in her life to be a critical thinker, but she couldn't understand what she didn't understand about things. arrested development.

there's no implication of eugenics here, so no, i have no idea how you found that 'allegory' to be relevant. as an allegory, it's a logical fallacy appealing to the consequences of belief. and partially a straw man as well.

Got another good one:

 

If you think you have been in the SAME situation that he is in, and think you know the solution to that situation, then why are you unsuccessful at helping him?

didn't he answer this just two paragraphs above what you quoted?

This indicates a very clear unconscious desire on their part to prolong their misery instead of taking steps to remedy it. And the reason for this is simple: It is far more painful and frightening to take full responsibility for one's own life than it is to simply adopt a victim mentality, and in fact, to continue to energetically attract chaos to oneself...

 

As I said before to overcome ANY victimization on ANY level, whether that be personal, spiritual, emotional, health etc... one must be prepared to spend some time facing some very painful unresolved personal issues. Any external remedies such as exorcisms, mudras, mantras, meditations, blessings, ceremonies etc. are only tools that must be accompanied by ruthless self-assessment. And usually this needs to be done with the help of a professional. Those who refuse to get help usually do so, because they do not want to be confronted with their participation in the negative situation they have allowed themselves to be trapped in...

you're forgetting something: cognition. some people can't even conceive of thinking beyond their egoic location, and they lack the trust that there is anything there, so they only walk on ground that they can see, even if that ground is astro-turf of their own making. it really is beyond the scope of some people's conception scheme, and therefore, the devil they know is constantly chosen over the devil they don't know.

it takes time, courage, and lots of challenges to transcend one's paradigm of understanding. some folks refuse to do it, but most don't even know how or what it even means, like christians who believe there's a heaven for all the jerks who cram their religion down everyones throats, and hell for people like Ghandi. many of them can even recite experiential PROOF of their convictions, unable to realize that their interpretation of their experience is not the TRUTH of their experience.

their interpretation is subject to their cognitive development. most folks don't really develop much cognitively after adolescence, and no matter what information their exposed to, the quality of their understanding/interpretation will be lacking.

once i was explaining the nature of yin qi to a student in his late 20's. i described it as similar to a gravitational force in one of our practices. he asked me if i was trying to tell him that he could fly. i started laughing until i realized he was serious. he was almost 30 years old, and he had the cognition of a child.

not everyone is fit for the paths that attract them.