Sahaj Nath

yeah, this will be my last post in this thread. heaven chi and i still keep going back and forth on things, but i DO sincerely believe that he is plagued with an affliction, or sorts. i just don't think it's quite as... relevant... as other matters i've addressed with him. i kind of like how you laid out a few different approaches as an example, and i think you're right that this type of thing happens where all contrary views are dismissed. what i think i've been trying to say is, up until last night, your criticism above is exactly how heaven chi has been approaching his own condition, as if only his viewpoint and beliefs about it is legitimate. i can go there and stay within that paradigm when it proves to be more skillful, but in this case it is failing him over, and over and over again, giving him temporary relief, and each time reinforcing and crystallizing the "reality" of his affliction. as some point you've gotta stop searching for the right amulet or mantra when they keep failing, and you've gotta re-examine your assumptions & beliefs. i think we're there. but at this point, i just don't know if he can make such a tremendous shift. but i'll continue the dialog at least a little while longer, because now, at least, i believe that he wants to understand. so that's something.

if you're a master heretic, then what are you complaining about? just do what you do. the world is your teacher, and no one can hold you back but YOU. i think you maybe got a little over-defensive here. i wasn't intending to insult you. but it happens. my best teacher recognized the extent of my natural talent. he also recognized what i did not, which was where my limitations and weaknesses were. he was so harsh and unrelenting at times that, to this day, he's the only man who has ever mad me cry. i had to submit to his authority. he knew more than i did. he also believed that i would eventually exceed him, but he didn't let ME know that, because the last thing he wanted to do was feed my hubris. so he spent a lot of time tearing me down, making me do things that i either felt was beneath me, or irrelevant. but i trusted him anyway. and now, i'm free to tear apart any damn thing i want, because he knows that i get it, and i've been tested. i've paid my dues, even with my natural talents. and i needed it, even though i didn't know i needed it at first. he honored me with the title of master in late 2007. and now he's my brother, whereas before, he was more like my father. the last time i counted, i owned over 120 videos (and an equally ridiculous number of books) on qigong, meditation, and the internal arts of various cultures. i'm beholden to no one as i examine the operating principles of the techniques. i'm free to do as i wish with that material. and i take my responsibility very seriously when i teach others heretical approaches that go against the prevailing orthodoxy. what you don't seem to get is that if you were such a student, i would almost be willing to pay you to come study with me. BUT, if you are unable to respect my authority as the primary knowledge-holder in our relationship (until i have decided you have sufficiently developed), and if you can't appreciate my sense of karmic responsibility for your development as your teacher, and if you don't have the patience or the humility to possibly have to perform tasks that you might feel are beneath you, then you wouldn't be very teachable. did you get anything else out of what i wrote above? anything at all? EDIT: let me add this. to this date i have yet to meet a student whose intellect rivaled my own, but i'm always looking. as far as natural talent, i've had 3 so far whose natural potential exceeded mine. two of them were women, and they both dropped out. both lacked consistency and were too averse to discomfort. but the other guy is a BEAST! i can't keep another person down without staying down with them, and i don't roll like that. anyone who finds this as their true calling gets the greatest joy from witnessing the epiphanies and the overall development of those they teach.

okay... umm... congrats? i think maybe you're leaving out too much of the discussion for this to apply. and most of it was in PM and i will not betray heaven chi's confidence in order to make a point. what i can say is, OF COURSE i understand the efficacy of appreciating the child's paradigm and acting within it! we all do. that's why we look in the closet and work whatever 'magic' we need to so they can sleep. the analogy works for the one point i was making, but not for the whole of this issue. i really can't respond any further without going too far. all i can say is i agree with your point, but there's more to it. we DO admonish children to keep them from harm. i agree. to an extent. but we're talking about an ADULT, not a child. and there are real, tangible consequences for languishing at that stage if that adult continues as he has. either the stage must be challenged, or a course-correction must be made. if neither happens, then there is some REAL trouble ahead.

hm... i don't know you. maybe i'll get to know you over the next few weeks or so, i don't know. but after reading this thread of yours, i can't for the life of me understand why you would PM me about what i teach. maybe you should do a search on my screen name. i don't pull punches or sugar coat my criticisms around here, and i have ZERO problem with telling people when they are NOT ready for something. so it would seem to me that i would be last person you would want to contact with regard to teaching. a school of cultivation is a knowledge community, and there are correct and incorrect assessments and answers within those communities. it's not all open to interpretation OR negotiation. if you were my student, i would tell you that your thought process and your attitude within this thread is flat-out wrong, and i would debate you and tear down your flawed reasoning, and you wouldn't go any further until you could either defeat my analysis or acknowledge where you were wrong. but the temperament you're displaying here suggests that maybe you wouldn't be able to get past it. you're not entitled to ANYTHING that ANY teacher has to offer. PERIOD. if you had already accrued the necessary merits from previous lifetimes, then you wouldn't be knocking at those wrong doors, eh? no one else can keep you from your destiny, and if you're hungry enough, you should be willing to endure WHATEVER it takes. i might have you walk in sync with your breath for the first 6 months, and then add raising & lowering the arms the next 6 months. what you may not realize is that, while the other students may look like they're doing more advanced stuff, i might have recognized your natural gift and given you a challenge that would allow you to blow right past them, IF you had the temperament to endure it. but you wouldn't be in any position to judge my motives. now, maybe that's simply not the kind of student-teacher dynamic you want, but that doesn't make the teacher selfish or egotistical; just a poor fit for YOU. sometimes wisdom looks like crazy. also, here's an article i posted back in '07 with regard to foundation building. i'm a better writer today than i was then, but it still has relevance to this thread: http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/3470-breathe-deep-embrace-simplicity/

i disagree. thinking we don't is largely a 'new age' phenomenon. there ARE inferior and superior ways of understanding in our relative world. most of what you're addressing here has no practical relevance to the actual discussion at hand in which someone is seeking assistance for a problem that they themselves don't necessarily understand. a child might want an amulet to protect them from the closet monster. are we not allowed to say that there is another, more mature perspective that this child can reach? or do we just say, "maybe the child is right; who am i to judge." but we are not just born and then wander out along our 'natural path.' it's a beautifully poetic sentiment, but it ain't how things work. we learn, we grow, we fail, and at any point along the way, we can stall and just call it our nature, right? good luck with that. again, poetic sentiment, but empirically false unless you're limiting yourself to the abstract. anyone who has excelled and watched others excel in any school larger than a school of ONE would disagree. i understand your sentiment, but it just doesn't work that way. schools exist for a reason. the natural path of the heart doesn't work for the adult who has the emotional maturity of an 8-year-old. that person needs guidance.

you are grossly misunderstanding my point. and i DO mean GROSSLY. please re-read my argument. if we were all at a dinner party, no one would take offense to someone being pointed out as the fastest or most athletic person in the room. but everyone seems to get a little uncomfortable with the notion that someone could be the smartest or most cognitively developed in the room. i don't believe in the notion of the enlightened idiot. some folks have the capacity for tremendous growth, and some folks don't. some are late bloomers and have a long way to go, but they'll get there. and others peak early and aren't going to grow anymore. often we talk on this forum as if everyone has an equal shot at enlightenment or at high-level attainment. it's simply not true. that doesn't fall along racial or ethnic lines, and the fact that repugnant distortions of logic were used to justify slavery has NOTHING to do with this. my mother dropped out of school in 8th grade. her ability to take on new understanding in a way that actually expanded her awareness were limited by that fact. she was a voracious reader in the 80's, but her comprehension remained that of an 8th-grader. she was never really challenged elsewhere in her life to be a critical thinker, but she couldn't understand what she didn't understand about things. arrested development. there's no implication of eugenics here, so no, i have no idea how you found that 'allegory' to be relevant. as an allegory, it's a logical fallacy appealing to the consequences of belief. and partially a straw man as well.

didn't he answer this just two paragraphs above what you quoted? you're forgetting something: cognition. some people can't even conceive of thinking beyond their egoic location, and they lack the trust that there is anything there, so they only walk on ground that they can see, even if that ground is astro-turf of their own making. it really is beyond the scope of some people's conception scheme, and therefore, the devil they know is constantly chosen over the devil they don't know. it takes time, courage, and lots of challenges to transcend one's paradigm of understanding. some folks refuse to do it, but most don't even know how or what it even means, like christians who believe there's a heaven for all the jerks who cram their religion down everyones throats, and hell for people like Ghandi. many of them can even recite experiential PROOF of their convictions, unable to realize that their interpretation of their experience is not the TRUTH of their experience. their interpretation is subject to their cognitive development. most folks don't really develop much cognitively after adolescence, and no matter what information their exposed to, the quality of their understanding/interpretation will be lacking. once i was explaining the nature of yin qi to a student in his late 20's. i described it as similar to a gravitational force in one of our practices. he asked me if i was trying to tell him that he could fly. i started laughing until i realized he was serious. he was almost 30 years old, and he had the cognition of a child. not everyone is fit for the paths that attract them.

Okay, i'll bite. but only a little bit. the oil crisis is every bit as manufactured as the vehicles and machines that thrive on its by-product. it's about power. it's always been about power. and to even frame the discussion the way that you have only feeds into the elite interests that hope to keep the crisis alive. Iraqi oil has been virtually free since the Clinton era, when the US was funneling 3 million barrels a day from Iraq to Saudi Arabia and paying the Saudis a modest laundering fee because to do that kind of business with a sanctioned country (Iraq at the time) was treason. and these backdoor tactics used to trickle down to US savings at the pump while other western industrialized countries paid more. but after the start of the Iraq war in 2003, it all changed. for US consumers, i mean. once the war start there was no longer a need for laundering. oil was literally up for grabs, as were high-end contracts for the rebuilding of infrastructure. literally pennies on the barrel, and for some companies, barrels on the penny! but at that same time, the price of gas here rose to over $2/gallon, and it just kept climbing. there was no crisis. but the fickle public didn't know any better and so there was little outrage. SUV's and Hummers became a trend at this exact same time period where companies were acquiring oil at the cheapest price ever, and then selling gas at the highest price ever. highest recorded profits in history. there's no energy alternative, because energy is not the problem. GREED is. there's no alternative because there's no alternative profit venture that can replace having the entire world as your customer. except maybe drugs & quality weapons. and those markets are already saturated. we're not close to running out of oil. Argentina alone has more oil than Iraq and Saudi Arabia combined. Chile has a ton as well. pretty much all of S. America is rich in oil and minerals. it's why Kissenger ok'd the overthrow of Salvador Allende in 1973 which, by the way, took place on September 11th. copper, zinc, and oil, for the Profits, NOT for the People, as Allende wanted. Latin America trumps the Middle East in terms of oil reserves. in the coming years this will be re-revealed as a new "discovery". and we'll all breathe a sigh of relief and say it's buying us some time to deal with our dependency. but it won't be true, just as it's not true now. but if we all believe its true, then those companies get to charge $10/gallon for such a rare and precious commodity. it's a big theater, and it always has been. the crisis will be kept alive for as long as possible, in order drain as much money as possible from the market. PERIOD. alternative energy sources have been around since Ford. you could probably even find some perpetual motion engines or water fueled engines on youtube. i don't even want to bother looking, cuz it's kind of a no-brainer. THAT'S NOT THE PROBLEM. there is money to be made and power to be gained in the oil business, and especially in the looming "peak oil" threat. is it a wonder then that out of the world's top 100 economies over 50% of them aren't even countries. they're corporations. businesses have amassed more power than governments, and myths like the peak oil crisis benefit them. hm... i wonder where the research comes from? could it be firms owned by the same companies that benefit from their findings? naw. our government wouldn't allow that. that would be wrong.

yeah, i already went there with him. and then some. and yet, here he is. it's like we have another mewtwo on our hands. i'm over it.

the skill that she exhibits in even the most basic of moves, coupled with the purity and grace expressed in her spontaneous form... that's transmission enough, if you ask me. and yes, i can literally feel that when i watch her, but not some intensely saturated energy current, if that's what you mean. that's not what she's about. but you can taste the internal by observing her external. and that kind of transmission is precisely what makes teachers so important. i will definitely be meeting her this year.

i agree. i purchased the DVD the day it became available when she first announced it in the facebook group. i really like her teaching style, AND her sensibility. it has helped me connect with the practice in a new way. i for one am grateful for it. plus, the production quality is pretty good. Chris (Mantra) really knows his stuff. when i'm ready to start actually making videos, he's probably gonna be my first call. seriously. he's just good.

very well-stated, Twinner. having worked with all different stripes of messed up people, i can assure you that your issues are very small-time. perhaps your greatest problem is that you assume to already understand what is happening, and, therefore, what you need to acquire to "fix" the matter. as i stated from the beginning, calling it black magic simply because you find the experience disagreeable is highly problematic and can pull you further and further away from a REAL and LASTING solution. before collecting more spiritual tools, work needs to be done with your UNDERSTANDING of these matters. calm and discipline are the tools you need most if you plan to continue your spiritual path. your sympathetic nervous system might initiate fear and adrenaline when some of these things occur, but that doesn't make them evil or any less a part of your own psychic baggage. even words you don't think you've ever heard before can be coming from you. i have much to share on this matter, but if you're gonna try a little bit of all this protection stuff, from multiple traditions, just to see what sticks, then i would be wasting my time and energy breaking it all down for you. stick with that approach for a while, if you like. get back in touch with me when you're ready and willing to shift your understanding about things. sooner or later, you'll have to come back to that anyway. i may PM you a little more later, but i'm operating on less than 2 hours of sleep because i've been with a student who was in need. i really, REALLY, need to rest.

well duh, yeah, that holds true for any healer. if you didn't wanna talk about it or feel it appropriate to explore here, you could have just said so. (i'm guessing that's what you're saying in your comment.) still, i say that this the PERFECT kind of thing that can be examined and discussed or debated in a forum like this. plenty of healers around here from different backgrounds that can weigh in, and we can all learn something, or at least be exposed to a different way of looking at it. but whatevs, it's all good. like i said, i wasn't picking a fight or anything. my thinking exactly. it would have been much faster to shift the vibrational frequency of the host, and then the entity would have disengaged as if sucking on milk that suddenly turned sour. not to mention, UNNECESSARY. Siberia or the Amazon? plenty of powerful people right here, with more knowledge and understanding than most of the folks out there in the sticks. the modern western world is not just populated with spiritual morons who can only borrow from the traditionalists. many of us can go every bit as deep, in some cases even deeper, PLUS, we have the advantage of understanding more about psychology, physiology, quantum physics, and chaos, than any of the older traditions. what used to require an exorcism and all manner of esoteric workings nowadays just might require a healing mantra, a simple exercise routine, and a dietary change. it's worth considering.

maybe not as tremendous a problem as you might think. if you like, you can PM me and i'll see what i can do. i'll want details about your background, your training, your age & education level, the severity of the occasions, when this all started, your location, and anything else you think might be relevant. share more than you think is necessary; that way, i'll have fewer follow-up questions. it may be a simple matter of integration and balancing. but for starters, whatever it turns out to be, you really want to STOP calling it black magic; that only adds fuel to the fire. it's okay to prefer a different state of being, but avoid labeling something an evil force that you must struggle or do battle against. such a mindset can be a pathology in and of itself, and is more likely to drag you out of touch with reality i'm curious to know the healer's modality(ies). sounds like an awful long time for an issue that's not so complicated. destroying the entity probably wasn't even necessary. it certainly wasn't expedient. i seldom spend that kind of time with late stage cancer, which has physical materiality! plus, it sounds as if the patient played no role in his own healing process? perhaps there's more to the story. i'd really like to know the rest of it. that is, if you're willing to share. this isn't to start a fight or anything. i really want to understand the whole picture. you can PM it if you prefer, but it might prove to be a worthwhile exploration for the forum as well.

wow, i'm scared now. what should i buy? what totalitarian policies should i support?

... the video finally arrived today. so far, i've only watched the complete form. later i'll comb through the teaching section for any little tricks or insights that might help me as a teacher, but his flow and connectedness are a bit off in the first half of the form. the visual setting of the video is quite pleasant, but i would go with John Loupos and his tai chi connections video before looking to this one. so far, it remains the best beginner's video that i've come across. ESPECIALLY for the price! here's an ad video for it. it's been posted here before, but what the hay. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTtlEFRKOng&feature=related ...okay, i've been watching some of the instructional portion now, and that part is pretty helpful. this is one of those videos that can only take you so far, though, whereas the video (and book) of john loupos will provide you with material you'll probably want to reference even a few years from now. of course, i could be biased. yeah, i wouldn't kick the dvd out of bed, i guess. but there is better out there.

SO true! very much enjoying the first video. i'll get to the second one later this evening.

good on you! i applaud you for having the strength of character to put yourself out there like that, and i really mean it. if your willingness is sincere, you have done the right thing. i may not be the person that you want to begin building this relationship with (and that's fine, so long as you find SOMEBODY), but if you don't find any other takers that suit you, i would be more than happy to offer you my guidance. just send me a PM as fiveelementtao suggested. if you approach my teachings and suggestions with the same vigor and enthusiasm as you have with all of these other things, then i promise you that you will be happy with your progress over the next year. so good luck, and just know that my offer is there for you if you need it.

um... okay. but you DID post this in a PUBLIC forum. so even if you don't take heed, others might. as is always the case in a PUBLIC forum. but feel free to put me on IGNORE, as i will continue to comment as i see fit. there are a number of GOOD teachers on this forum that could have given you the type of guidance that would actually lead to growth. you've been around this forum as long as i have, at least. yet my understanding and skills have nearly doubled since i first arrived here, and you've only recently acquired enough sense to STOP chasing after the great & magical Master Wan over at yogameditation. many of us patiently and painstakingly tried to answer your questions and steer you in the right direction. many times. i thought maybe you were a kid in his early teens. i had no idea you were as old as you are. you don't have the capacity to navigate this stuff on your own, and i don't say that to be mean. it's harsh, yes. but it's also true. and if you could swallow that and admit to yourself that you DO need guidance, you could have ALREADY (in the 3+ years you've been around this site) developed some of those skills that you've only read about in books. good luck.

Rainbow_Vein FTW!

i LOVE YOU! and i get your meaning. i hope you didn't miss mine. contextually, if he were doing what you just suggested, most of us here would applaud him. i know that i certainly would. but he was laying claim to having enough knowledge and depth of research to be fit for teaching. not even close.

...but you DID say that you felt it was time to pass on your knowledge to others, even though you didn't seem to know much of anything at all. you're missing Dainin's point. and maybe you don't want to hear it, but i'll restate it differently. you seem to be looking for a shortcut to spiritual greatness. you don't seem to have enough patience or discipline to build a foundation, and you keep looking for ways to fly before you've learned to walk, or even crawl. you appeared to be an adult in your video, but you consistently demonstrate a tremendous amount of immaturity in your approach to these things. you're like a kid looking for all the neat magical stuff that's fun & might even impress your friends. you're skipping past the most important part of spiritual training. devote your time to mastering the basics. no one outgrows their foundation. i still practice the first things i learned, every day. and they continue to nourish and reveal new insights to me. THAT is how one achieves mastery. not by chasing after fantasies, but by recognizing and honoring the profound that exists within simplest of practices. do you meditate 2 to 3 hours every day? do you have a daily devotional practice? a daily exercise routine that you DIDN'T invent yourself? i already know the answer is NO, but then why make a thread with questions about the highest arts when you haven't even put yourself in a position to understand them? a ton of people here would be happy to help you establish a REAL practice of cultivation for yourself, and i think it's pretty obvious that you need that help. you seem to have a real passion, but you need both STRUCTURE and DISCIPLINE. but you have to be willing to see that truth for yourself. OR, you can keep wasting year after year, not really getting anywhere. you need a teacher. you're not doing very well on your own, and it's obvious. YOU NEED A TEACHER.

not sure that i can point you directly, but i can certainly point in the general direction. i no longer own most of ken wilber's materials. i've loaned tons out and then never got them back. but a key element in his approach to spiritual practice is psychology. MOST of his material on psychology (and particularly on shadow elements) deals with the importance of the contribution of western psychology to stable overall development, because there are mental issues like disassociated character traights that don't necessarily become apparent simply by meditative technique. so without some specifically psychological forms of inquiry, many egoic flaws can get bigger and even reinforced by spiritual growth, mainly because the more one grows, the more one can convince themselves that they've dealt with all of their issues. or the more they realize that they don't have to if they don't want to, and they can still attain high levels of realization. so look for his work on shadow elements and integral psychology. you're sure to stumble upon most of it. but it's thoroughly spread throughout a lot of his lectures as well. depending on the topic, his discussion is always informed by that perspective. and he doesn't just argue it in a vacuum; he tends to celebrate aspects of it because of what it implies about the ego, namely that the ego is not the enemy to spiritual development, and that a strong, healthy ego is key. also, that even the greatest teachers have limitations. going to a Tibetan Monk for marital advice might not be the wisest choice, for instance. which leads right to evolutionary enlightenment. people often want the oldest, most ancient or original teachings, not appreciating the fact that we live in a different world than the teachers of old. we understand the material and ever-changing universe in ways that simply wasn't known in the past. so there's something to be said about seeking an enlightened realization that is informed by our modern times and understandings. i believe he goes there in kosmic consciousness, which is like a 12-hour interview series of which i'm sure you can find clips on youtube if you're clever enough with search terms. there's plenty of ken wilber material there, i'm sure.

aww... you flatter me. i try to purchase every worthwhile video out there. anything i might be able to learn from. anything that might help me become a better teacher. so now i have a pretty cool library of stuff. i never want to stop learning, and i can always improve as a teacher, so i always find it to be a worthwhile investment so long as i can take away at least one little gem from it.

fair enough. but to be honest, even after having read the article, i still stand by what i wrote. anyone who's familiar with Ken's work has read and/or heard his analysis on the issue before. very generalized = fast and loose. i know your comment wasn't directed at just me, and i mostly agree with you that i still should have at least looked at it first, but it was what i thought it was, and the only context i cared to address was the one provided by shaktimama herself in the subtitle of the thread. i used to have some great interview dialogues that occurred between Ken Wilber and Andrew Cohen (of whom i'm NOT much of a fan), and they talk about evolutionary enlightenment and incarnational nonduality. brilliant talks. far more compelling than this article in terms of analysis. you really ought to spend some quality time to actually study that material. and why take such a narrow-minded view on weight lifting? we live in the age of the cubicle, where muscles atrophy if we don't create activities that put demand on them. Wilber was like 8 feet tall and 150 lbs (i'm exaggerating, of course). constantly in poor health. i don't remember precisely what his health issues are/were, but weightlifting for him was a must. he had to put on mass to stabilize his body, and without weightlifting, his body simply wouldn't put on any weight. weightlifting can be a very healthy thing, not just about vanity. and if you study the material that you pulled off of the bit torrents, you'll probably find that weightlifting, when done with a certain approach and mental state, can be very meditative, even indistinguishable from qigong. the iron bracelets used by some of the shaolin artists is weightlifting, just not the western conventional type. i would encourage you and revisit the material you've downloaded. there's a lot more quality information there than you seem to think. it's simply laid out and very straightforward. it's certainly worth your time, i think. ... Oh, and while i'm at it: what's with all the hate regarding Bubba Free-John/Adi Da Samraj? yes, Wilber did distance himself a bit from him due to the bad press, but he never denounced him. he used Da as sort of an example of being really enlightened in one or two important areas, and being underdeveloped in others. not unlike coming across a highly realized chinese master and discovering that he is racist, or sexist. it happens. but only the simple-minded would throw out the masterful qualities simply because that master still had prejudices. new practitioners often ask how backward-thinking traits can continue to exist in an otherwise realized being, and whether such qualities disqualify their realization. Wilber offers pretty kick-ass answers to this. personally, i'm a fan of Adi Da. i don't have to swallow him whole to appreciate the areas in which he truly excelled as a spiritual adept. and if believing that he was the one and only True God Avatar was a necessary flaw for him to be able to share what he did with such brilliance and clarity, well, i can certainly forgive him that. he doesn't have to be perfect to be amazing. none of us do.