asanjuan2008

Poor question. Its just a bashing thread on the new age movement.

Furthermore does it matter?

 

I think the point is, if it causes people to feel better about their lives, work harder, develop their psychology, its an overall positive thing.

 

John

I tend to agree with this. If it helps people and hurts no one, it's good. There is a lot of soul searching and angst floating around out there. In the USA and Europe, the usual mainstream religions are failing to provide the spiritual uplift that people need, and if they want to turn to alternative faiths, why not?

On the other hand, I have nothing but disdain for the people who try to gyp others of their hard-earned money through hoaxes.

What the author doesn't understand is that the "wave" corresponding to a many particle system is a function of the configuration space, not ordinary space. They are only the same for a single particle system. For a two particle system it is six dimensional, for a three particle system it is nine dimensional, etc. This is the mathematical reason behind "entanglement": quantum many particle systems are not reducible to many wavefunctions on three dimensional space, but are entangled in a higher dimensional space (NOT a physical space, for all the armchair string theorists reading this). So a human body's wavefunction is a "wave" in a space of at least a trillion trillion dimensions

Very interesting. But how does this negate the suggestion that many-particle systems are still made of waves? Waves with aspects in a trillion dimensions actually sounds fascinating ;-)

Observing something having an influence on it does not translate to intention having an influence, like in the law of attraction.

Can you elaborate on this?

It may very well be, but he did not make many claims. He just suggested the possibility, which is a nice break from many of the religious people who 'know' everything.

It was the claims about death and spirits...but, you are right, the main point is that these were just suggestions.

I am not impressed with this site. It has a very 'new age' feel to it and the author shows no particularly deep understanding of Quantum Mechanics.

Definitely New Age feel to it, which isn't necessarily bad. At least it did not start spouting off about Love is the center of the Universe and such ;-)

And from what i have read about Quantum Theory, the statements made about it seem to be very valid, and the tenets derived from those seem to be reasonable as well.

It's the claims made in the paragraphs about haunted houses and such that were going towards the boundaries.

After death, you (or at least the info about you) still exists in the Tao ;-)

http://www.blueboard.com/quantum/index.htm#death

I was expecting some kind of pseudo-science garbage, but that was actually quite interesting.

 

Thanks.

The quantum stuff is legit; the question is whether it was over-reaching in the end.

From the site:

"How to explain phenomenon such as spirits, ghosts, and death in terms of a holistic metaphysical framework which aligns current quantum mechanical theories with philosophical tenets from Taoism, Buddhism and other spiritual foundations."

Quantum Tao

Thoughts? Ideas?

How do you define socialism as opposed to communism? It seems what you actualy mean is social democracy like we have in Norway, Sweden and Denmark, meaning a combination of a capitalist economy with a large state sector and heavy redistribution of wealth. If that is the case I can assure you there will be no problems as almost all types of international rankings rate our quality of life a good bit above that of the USA despite our "horrbile" "socialism". Actualy rankings with regards to freedom of the press and democracy usualy put these countries well ahead of the US as well so you needn`t be concerned about your freedom either.

+1

Everytime someone here says "socialism" as if it were some disease, I have to laugh, as many socialists states have higher living standards than the USA.

I'll also point out that many "semi-communist" nations like China have proven remarkably resilient to economic disasters recently, including the 1997 currency crises in Asia which absolutely destroyed the living standards of capitalist countries around it like the Philippines and Thailand (and which needed Chinese actions to curtail the disaster), as well as the current crises.

In the end, the middle ground is always better.

I fear the day when people will be made criminals for not getting "chipped." And also, Obama is not a communist, he is probably just as afraid as the rest of his country folk of the very word. I live in Canada and Obama's policies would hardly classify him as a liberal leaning conservative. The Canadian conservative party is more liberal than the american democrat party. Communism is a word that gets thrown around alot with little understanding of its pure concepts, as does capitalism... or any mass ideology for that matter.

Another +1

Judy Satori

- I flinch in embarrassment whenever I hear about people like this. Charlatans.

DNA activation

- all the links I see on the web for this seems to be from people wanting to make a buck. Scamming is so easy nowadays in the age of the internet.

By chance I am reading Deng Ming Dao's 365 Tao meditations, and for the entry to be read on Nov 29 (northern hemisphere) he says this about Donkeys (and I summarize):

In order to climb to the summit of the mountain, one has to sometimes use a donkey, but once one reaches the summit and views the vista, it does not matter what donkey was used, whether it be a Tao donkey, or Buddhist donkey, or Jewish donkey...

Does anyone think that the practise that you do now, and the results that you may achieve, will also for a part be passed on to your children? Without teaching them i am speaking of now, simply by doing chi gong now and getting children later. Would they inherit some qualities of this from you, you think?

Lamarkism as a whole had been discredited awhile back. However, there is evidence to suggest that various forms of adaptive mutagenesis is possible in microorganisms, where the organisms may actively alter their genes in response to outside stimuli.

If one can somehow change one's germline cells in response to various practices, then it would be theoretically possible. The question is how would one accomplish this so that directed macrochanges can be passed to offspring ;-)

I was not suggesting. I was asking.

Sorry, but I hit this quote and had to look at it that way

"But all this talk of seals against demons, magical rituals, temples, commandments, has put me off. "

The fact is , after the completion of the book: Lao Tzu , Taoism further develops and absorbs the Yin/Yang theory and lays the foundation of TCM ( Traditional Chinese Medicine) ; it then becomes the system that cure billions of people for more than 2,000 years . An abstract , philosophical theory being used as practical , analytic tool is a very unique phenomena in human culture : not only symptoms of illness are analyzed in the jing-qi-shen + yin/yang framework , but herbs are being used and classified by it . Taoism, in fact, dissolves into people's daily life and takes effect without being noticed by most people ( achieve without doing anything ?)

People ( me too ) may not like the religious apearance of Taoism , but the combination of it with medicine and religion seems inevitable . Based on the Taoist theory of qi and heavenly- qi , immortality is a practical possibility , not just a theoretical assumption , so its link with religion is therefore undeniable . Getting rid of its other weird religious substance should not be like people throwing away their baby together with dirty water after bathing it .

Interesting well thought-out post. I do subscribe to some of the religious practices, but the main attraction for me has always been the ideological framework.

Thanks for your reply Pietro.

The fact that a religion is popular does not necessarily mean that it brings to any form of salvation. It can as easily bring to a form of escapism and self delusion. People thinking they have reached something then going home and they bite their dog, they slap their kids."But", they say, "all is ok, because all is part of the Dao". This is a way to use the Tao Te Ching not to reach something, but to avoid doing any internal work. I am not saying you do this (how could I know), but that this is a risk.

I would agree with you here, but your example of "escapism" and "lack of salvation" is not valid.

It doesn't matter what religion they subscribe to, so long as it helps them attain stability with themselves and the people around them. That does not mean a temporary stability, as you seem to imply in the example, but one that they practice and think of continuously.

So now we have people from different religions, they are all popular. Are they all equally good to let you be saved? Maybe. But then let us look at things under stress. Because many things which seem to work well under no stress fall apart under stress. Take people who have gone through major trauma. Rape, torture, seeing their children dying sudden and avoidable death. Those are trauma that can remain with a person for the rest of their life. Some of those religions will help you out of them, and some will not. Authentic Taoism will, I know this as a fact. Authentic Buddhism will. Authentic Chrsitianity will. Will their New Age counterpart work as well. I doubt so.

Maybe you should define "New Age", because although I don't necessarily subscribe to these thoughts, I do know some New Age systems are DERIVED from situations where life stress and the inability to cope with life cause the believer to depart from their current "authentic" faiths, which did not provide a strong enough framework for them.

I would also contend that labeling a faith as "authentic" is misleading, because there may not be such a thing. As I mentioned, since faiths evolve continuously over time, the only "authentic" faith is one that is still currently used. The Islam and Christianity practiced today (in its many sects and cults) is different than ones practiced when they first started (although Islam less so). Is Taoism any different? Which is the authentic, the original or the derived, which is the result of continued evolution?

This is to answer your question: why assigining a value to religion? To avoid spending time to learn something which you think will help you when thigs are rough, and then discovering that the boat is sinking and the safe jacket is full of holes. But now it is too late.

You are wrong here because faith is not a science, where many things are based on objective verifiable and measurable phenomenon. A faith can mean different things to different people, it's up to each one of us to find out our path. What may mean salvation for one person, can mean stultifying drudgery for another. What may mean satisfaction for one, may mean confusion for another.

You might think that you are getting what the authors of the Tao Te Ching meant. But can you be sure? Can anyone be sure? If there is a continuous tradition who have passed on the meaning along side the book you would know. On the side of many great texts there is an oral tradition that accompany them.

 

What I am saying is that when a tradition passes through the bottleneck of a single or few person who have to carry the whole tradition, and were not trained to do so, often the religion looses parts of its identity. And possible parts of its healing powers.

 

You make an interesting point here.

What this corresponds to is a a genetic bottleneck, where only a few individuals get through to a new environment, and the entire population is then derived from this initial bottleneck. I will point out though that in biology, evolutionary bottlenecks are quite common, and the existing population tend to diversify over time to become as vibrant or more so than the original population, and definitely is more adapted to the new lay of the land than the old one.

Which is better then, the new or the old, or it is the same? Both are adapted to the circumstances around them. Both are optimized so they can do the most good.

That is exactly the point. You assume the core values can be picked up from reading the Tao Te Ching by itself.

No, I assume the core values ARE in some form. The Tao te Ching is a start, but I wouldn't be here right now discussing things if I thought it was the end all.

Indeed religions evolve over time. I never said this is not so. I am only saying not all evolutions are equally helpful to let you reach a place of equanimity, compassion, and balance.

Evolutions by definition ARE adaptive at the current time, or they would not have happened ;-)

In the same way, people would not accept and DEFINE a new direction in a religion if it were not adaptive and useful (for them).

It's a pretty good movie. I'm buying it on Blu-ray, but watched in in theaters as well. My wife and I watched it both in the theaters because of its somewhat realistic Chinese themes.

I take that 'value' in a purely historical perspective, not a personal judgement of the thing itself.

Come now, whether from a historical perspective or personal perspective, it was obviously meant as a slight on taoism as seen in the USA and other extra-Chinese settings.

Anything has the value that *you* give it, regardless of its objective worth.

YM

You might want to think about this when using money, then. Money may have subjective worth to each person, but boy does it give back objective verifiable objects (like cars, houses, and food).

The point of the discussion, and the excellent summary made by Pietro, is NOT whether 'western *daoism*' can be useful and if it is *better or worse* than its chinese counterpart.

You must have missed this part, then:

QUOTE: "But to simply let any traveller who reaches a new land start his own version of a religion, and expect that to have equal value than the original on the one side, and the native in that land, on the other, is according to me a bit naive."

He obviously means to compare Taoism in the USA versus the one in China.

Yes, but is there a continuity between the east and the west?

Were there people from the Taoist tradition who passed down the book and its meaning, who came to the west, and as it mingled with western culture, it started a different interpretation (like you have in Buddhism, from my partial understanding).

Or is it that Chrisitan monks brought the three books (TTC, ZZ, IC) from China and people from here used them coming with their interpretation. Which still is based on them (but often from translations from people who also were also not Taoists). But then there would be no continuity with the original tradition.

You mention Christianity, Christianity evolved over time but in the same general area. When it would expand in an area it would do this by having different people going there. And when new branches were created a lot of discussion was involved. Even when a single person started a branch (say Lutero), the discussion around him was strong and vivid. All this made sure that no single person had a huge impact on the development of the tradition. It is ok when a single person have this impact, if this person is a sage, or a wise man (Jesus, Buddha, Ta Mo). But to simply let any traveller who reaches a new land start his own version of a religion, and expect that to have equal value than the original on the one side, and the native in that land, on the other, is according to me a bit naive.

1. Why this obsession with assigning some objective "value" to religions, or sects? I would think that the function of any religion is to help its members spiritually without detriment to others around them, and if any religion does so, then one cannot say it is less or more than any other. The fact that Taoism in the USA has produced a vibrant variant with imports from other philosophical tenets does not in any way devalue it versus the original tenets in China, so long as the basic works like the Tao Te Ching are still revered and so long as it uplifts its members.

This obsession with true and untrue religions is simply a facet of the inherent tribalism in people...an us versus them outlook burned into our genes that really should have no place in Taoism.

2. You say there is no continuity with the original, and yet the fact is, the original works of Taoism speak for themselves, even given the various translations and interpretations. The "Christian Bible" is an amalgamation of many works and MANY translations (since obviously most everyone does not speak Hebrew or Latin), some present in some sects, some not in others, and yet all the groups that use the "bible" are called "Christian", because the CORE belief, that of the person called Christ, is one and the same.

Some of the offshoots of Christianity (I will use this religions as an example because I was Catholic and am familiar with it more than, say Islam or Judaism, or Hinduism) in countries like the Philippines have adapted local philosophies to such an extent that one could hardly call them Christians if one looked at the original variation in the Middle East, and yet the basic core values (such as the Bible) remain and thus label the whole (the Philippines) as "catholic" still - notwithstanding local beliefs intertwined with biblical characters such as dwarves, spirits, local deities, etc.

3. You seem to make a big deal about HOW taoism first got to america, but I can tell you now it makes not one whit of difference how it got here, so long as the core values remained.

Does going to the bakery by foot make me any different than if I went to the bakery by car? The same core information that makes me "me" is still there - the transport does not matter.

As I said, religions and philosophies evolve over time, and evolving Taoism is not an exception.

Thank you for reading the post but I cannot see how did I offend others in this forum and when did I told you all to convert yourself into the REAL taoism?

I'm curious as to what this REAL taoism is. I've encountered a few strict adherents who deride those who stumble onto Taoism from popular media as "Taoist Lite" or "Poohists", and firmly believe only they know the way to the REAL taoism.

It is obviously a fact that Taoism started in China, and of course its practice there continues to strongly influence Taoism worldwide, but that does not mean there are evolving branches of Taoism that do not also merit the term just because they vary in some of their practices.

Everything evolves over time, even religions and philosophies. For example, the practices of the Islamic and Christian churches today are far different from those when it first started. What makes Taoism different?

Evolution is usually good. It makes any structure adapt over time to changing conditions to become optimal in its environment. As in biology, so too in any philosophical and religious frameworks.

Hi all,

I'n new to Taoism and am happy to be here. I'm a Java programmer and biofuel advocate in real life, but am enjoying exploring the frameworks of Taoism.

I manage two sites on taoism:

New Tao Blog

The Simple Tao

A. Roy