Cameron

So in the hostel in Harbin last night I spoke with a woman from States and I brought up how if my friends in Korea did something they did it 100%.

Whereas, correct me if you think I am wrong, Americans tend to be more dabblers.

Like if people in Korea get into hiking..they do it 100%. They hike every weekend. If they get into martial arts they do their art 100%. A spiritual practice 100%. Drinking 100%

We Americans, I am part of the group also, tend to treat different things like we are shopping in a grocery store. I guess I can see the benefits also. We grew up with more then most(maybe that is changing lol)so we had more choices. So I wonder what your take is. Is having 10 things to choose from better then having only a couple or ultimately just sidetrack you more.

Even here, look at all the spiritual practices and teachers their are to choose! Imagine the ancient Taoist or Buddhist seekers being fortunate to find even one Master and then being accepted as his students! We have many, all opening their doors to us and saying come do my life changing practice.

Anyway, just some thoughts on modern existence and how sometimes I wonder if being spoiled materialistically and even spiritually doesn't have it's downfall. Or perhaps it has the potential to make you a more discerning person?

Cam, you may be interested to know that the originator of Aikido loved to do misogi.

 

I know

What sort of health benefits did you experience? I am reading about it online and some people claim they never got sick again after starting daily cold showers!

Supposedly taking ice baths are really good for workout recovery and for losing fat.

Anyone else do this? It's something I really got into Korea. Where anywhere you go you can go to a spa for like $10 soak in a jacuzzi then jump into an ice cold bath. I really enjoy the feeling of finishing my shower with as cold as water as possible too and have read it has health benefits.

I just got back from Harbin where they have the polar bear club. Not man enough for that yet!

Happy New Year to thetaobums family from China!

Hey guys, one last thing. I am still getting private messages from different people asking for advice on their practice. Please use common sense. As I wrote on this thread already I am not a spiritual teacher. I asked for my name to be taken off my teacher's website beacuase I don't see myself in that role. Their are plenty of good spiritual teachers find them yourself and ask them about your issues.

In respect to my specific lineage and practice. You have two really excellent teacher's in North America- Max and Sifu Jenny. And Kan San in Japan.

Really, if your serious about doing Kunlun I would just seek out one of those three and follow what they share with you.

Max has gone even further to help you by doing Skype sesshins for his students. One of the most highly skilled Taoist adepts in the west and he is available to chat with you on Skype for a very fair amount. It's a brave new world!

Even though Max says you really only need to see him once I will make it a point to Skype with him atleast once a year myself. So please save all your questions for Max himself.

Ok, getting ready to head to Harbin for Chinese New Year, best wishes in your practice.

Cam

Yes, good stuff. Reminds me of one of the first things I heard on Taoism. Ken Cohen's audio course. When was that? About fourteen years ago, wow. Anyway, I remember him saying relaxation happens on two planes. Both dropping tension down, basicaly letting gravity do it's thing. And opening towards the surface. Opening out similar to what you are describing.

Anyways, heading to Harbin for Chinese New Year! The biggest ice festival in the world. Pretty excited! Good luck in opening your MCO, dissolving tension and whatever else you fancy in the Year of the Dragon!

Namaste

Yeah, me too. That's why I never say any practice is "good" or "bad" like some people do.

Who knows? Maybe their is some genius who can attain enlightenment following Mantak Chias system. I don't know.

Anyway, I am not going to drop in for a awhile because every time I do I feel the need to post! lol

Talk you in a few months, good luck and props for having success with RD. Never got that one quite fired up myself but good to hear.

Cam

Please be cautious if you start to dabble with the sexual teachings in Chias system btw. Circulating sexual energy or MCO doing "big draw" etc

imho, the best part of Chias system is the inner smile. That really is a great practice.

A nice way to play with MCO if you want to try is do the inner smile a lot. Then when you feel smile energy gently smile around the orbit with intention. And if it doesn't happen quite naturally, unforced and all on it's own leave it alone. Just "smile down". It's a water method way to do it.

Visualizing spinning pearls, doing reverse breathing to move the qi around, intense fire breathing to get it moving etc are all quick ways to feel energy but imho a misguided approach. BK Franzis has it right.

Or if you would like a simple qigong practice that is every bit as interesting as MCO get Sifu Jenny Lamb's DVD. She teaches many cool practices to open channels in a very grounded and safe way.

Anyway, good luck. Again, I have come back and said my 2 cents and then some. Back to winter hibernation!

It's interesting one of my qigong teachers is very left wing. A "Boulderite" who when asked about what he thought about George Bush's book Bush's Brain at a qigong class responded "what brain?"

Another time I saw in in Arizona when Bush wass till President and he was speaking about Native American practices. He said he thought our country was being run by the biggest criminals on the planet.

Then, another one of my qigong teachers is the head of the Republican Party in Arizona. When I saw a video of him speaking about Obama he sounded very against him and that they(Republicans) had the answer.

Even in my own family, my Mother is totally right and my father is totally left. To be honest, I voted for Bush the first time, Kerry the second and then stayed out of the last election. Obama seems like a cool guy but I just don't know enough about all the issues anymore and too many people I respect are so polarized on these different views.

Naturally, If I had to pick a side the left sounds more my style. Butmaybe it's just a phase lol..

But to answer the original question, yes other Taoist teachers do use the MCO.

Off the top of my head, Master Chen of Wudang Pai teaches it.

http://wudangtao.com/

Yes, exactly. Your not aware of the tension or holding. From that perspective, pretty much any stillness type meditation or simply sitting and watching thoughts, your breath etc would be better imho then running the orbit.

That's just an opinion. Mantak Chia has plenty of people who like his system so obviously that approach can work also.

And Scotty, since we are talking. My(our?) teachers transmission does quite a lot in and of itself. From my experience not much needs to be added to getting transmission from Max and doing Kunlun and Red Phoenix. Max told me the first time I met him you don't need to do MCO. So the teaching of the school I personally practice "just relax".

But I realize many people aren't going to get transmission from Max or do Kunlun, so that's a seperate issue.

Glad you are getting benefit from doing Red Dragon!(or some variation of it)

Also, I realize this is the MCO thread so not trying to talk anyone out of doing the MCO.

Believe me, I have seen online wars over this subject long before most of you came here.

It's just an alternative perspective that's all. Before running to much energy around with your mind maybe experiment with the less effort dissolving approach.

Modern teachers who are adept at teaching this off the top of my head, BK Frantzis, Jenny Lamb and Adyashanti.

Most of the serious practitiners of standing meditation seem to say much the same thing..don't do too much with energy..just stand.

Another way I think about it is clench your fist tightly. And imagine that is akin to an energy block. Now, does sending more energy through that clenched fist help to open it?

Just stop clenching!

Anyway, my 2 cents. I know some people seem to really enjoy the fire path and doing all sorts of stuff with energy so not saying it is neccissarily a bad thing. But not in alignment with my current level of attainment or goals. You could be different.

I prefer things very unforced and natural, as well...but sometimes using intention to guide the qi is a very natural thing. If it were forced, bad things would happen.

I would like to agree with you but need to explore and verify personally for myself more deeply before I can do so. The best I can come up with now is the "natural" approach is best until you really, really know what you are doing.

And even then, I am not sure using intent would be good. But atleast wait until you really, really know what your doing before using to much intent to "move qi".

To probe a little deeper. I remember this was something I was thinking about seriously years ago when I attended an Adyashanti weekend retreat with Sean. What I was getting was it's not so much about "doing something" to open yourself. What caused these channels to close in the first place? Doing something. Namely, the mind contracting around trauma in our life causing tension in our body. We use our mind to stop the river flowing. The river itself didn't stop.

Or to use a garden hose as an example. The faucet is on we don't need to push the water more. What we need to do is gently straighten out any twisted and contracted parts of the hose. And with ourselves what does this amount to? Do nothing. Because it's the doing something that messed us up.

So just relax

Then if you want to do something go for a nice hike, go swimming, play tennis, do martial arts, lift weights, go skiing or snowboard, dance, ride a horse or build a castle insteadof messing with your natural qi flow lol. Or, if you really know what your doing then no problem. I have a couple teachers like that also.

Michael Winn had an interesting perspective that doing the microcosmic orbit up the back and down the front refines jing to qi to shen. And doing it up the front and down the back refines shen to qi to jing.

Personally, I prefer the unforced and natural approach to all of this. Essentially the way Sifu Jenny Lamb teaches.

It's great to hear people who are benefitting from Kunlun. Reflecting on the past few years, my opinion is that Kunlun is very positive. And the people who reported negatively are simply experiencing the releasing of all their "stuff".

Rather then freak out about about the process, try to relax and allow the practices to open you up. It would be awesome if in the future people on Tao Bums attain Gold Dragon or Gold Phoenix Body. I think it is possible. My advice is avoid the drama and just focus on your own awakening. Be a light as much you can to others.

Well, back to my break for awhile. Live long and prosper lol.

Cameron

Cool

I like a description I heard from Ken Cohen, "Center everywere, circumfrence nowhere."

Lots of good Chinese food

Doing vegetarian buffet tonight in Beijing. Mmmmmmmmm...

These days I just think you just have a destiny for things our you don't.

The feeling or quality I look for is if it is somewhat effortless and joyful to undertake any action or is it burdemsome, difficult and stressful.

I think the days of having to suffer excessively to recieve high teachings are over. Just be a good person. If it feels right go for it. Give that homeless person money or take the retreat. If it doesn't feel right don't worry about it.

One major thing that I got from Buddhism is to learn to trust yourself. Not constantly look to others for what is "right action".

Listen to some Adyashanti retreats. He deals with these sorts of questions from students extensively and the answers he gives are from an awakened perspective.

Cam

 

When it comes to sharing methods, this is much more problematic. Meditative practices (particularly Daoist methods) can be quite dangerous to susceptible people. If we don't have adequate experience and guidance ourselves, it is a big mistake to show others such techniques. At best, we are showing them something inexpertly and often incorrectly. At worst, we could cause people significant harm if they misuse the methods or share them irresponsibly with others.

 

So I can see real reasons why it's best to keep a lot of this stuff secret.

I agree. And this is a major reason I asked to have my teaching credential taken off my teacher's website. This is not a game. Teaching high level Taoist stuff is not showing someone how to do push ups! It takes a high level of committment and unless one has very deeply verified the truths of what they are saying personally I would hesitate running around telling everyone to go practice their system

For example, in my system their are really only two Master level instructors. So on the occassion I do get a strong vibe share with someone I will highly reccommend they take classes with one of them and verify if it is right for them or not themself.

But nowadays, you run into people with all kinds of ideas and misconceptions. So probably saying nothing is more beneficial in some situations then getting into the details of your personal spiritual path.

Chias system is interesting. I took some classes with Michael Winn years ago. If your drawn to it check Michael out.

I found Kunlun(Max Christensen) to be a good path. You learn two very powerful lineage practices from the Maoshan branch of Tao. The channels(like MCO) eventually open on their own.

Max teaches a version of the MCO called the Red Dragon circulation. It's interesting but I don't practice it myself. You have to learn it from him in person though.

Personally, I prefer the 'water' method dissolving approach to opening channels then the more 'fire' path of using yi or intent to to open them up.

But that's just me, maybe you are different. If I remember correctly(It has been years since I read it) in BK Frantzis book he said that his teacher taught him the water path but taught another student the fire path. So it is an individual thing.

For example, my teacher is able to look at students energetically and see what they need. More fire, more water, more earth etc

Ideally, try to find a Master or atleast good qigong teacher to give you an in person assessment and cultivation prescription.

Not hide so much but my feeling is to just share my personal practices with really sincere people.

Nowadays, a lot of people do yoga and meditate..it's fashionable. But to share the practice I do(Kunlun) with others I need to feel some pretty powerfully positive vibes to do so.

Personally I think less is more in this regard. If your ever called to be a spiritual teacher then yeah..you get paid money to help people.

The high level teachers I have been fortunate to meet are Masters of the arts they speak about..not students. When they share this stuff it's with the authority of someone who really knows what they are talking about..even if they are also supremely humble about it.

It's interesting recently I was having a discussion about meditation with someone I don't really know that well. He was talking about how good it was and when I mentioned that I meditate he responded rather disrespectfully " I mean meditation not staring at the ceiling."

Mind you, this is someone I barely know. So I told him about my martial arts backround and that I have been meditating for 15 years(no ego about it I don't consider myself a very high level meditator) and for a moment pondered if I should talk about my main practice or not. I didn't. For whatever reason the vibe just wasn't right.

On the other hand, a Chinese girl that I am very close with had me opening up about my interest in qigong and Taoist stuff very quickly. She translated some passages from Tao Te Ching for me and I felt a very strong, comfortable connection to talk about these things. So I think that their is a certain quality of energy or vibe to look for and not just blab about your practices to people like we do on Tao Bums

I also found this article about the Science and History of Kunlun very interesting. It goes into stuff I haven't really heard get tied into Taoist practices before.

http://www.primordialalchemist.com/kunlun-neigung/science-and-history/

Hi guys,

Here is an interview Max did shortly after he started teaching Kunlun publically. He answers most of the questions people might have about his system.

I wanted to make sure people knew about it and could hear it. I am not a spiritual teacher. I am just a regular guy trying to better myself and be a good influence to those whose path I cross in my life.

I am taking a long break from Tao Bums. It's an awesome place and I have many good friends here but for myself I feel my contribution is done. I have said everything I can say. And I do feel blessed to have gotten to know you guys.

Here is the link. Go to 2007 shows and scroll down to see Max's interview.

http://www.liahhoward.com/