lienshan

Mwandui's?? More like Yoda's do they sound.

希言自然 is an ordinary subject-verb-object sentence.

希 is the subject, a noun, that'll say hopes (plural because it refers to two samples below).

言 is the verb, that'll say spoken (past time because the two samples are from the past).

自然 zi ran is an adverb of compound characters and is the object of the sentence.

The two samples are defined as hopes that'll say must be read in future time:

"The whirlwind might not last the morning out"

"The cloudburst might end before the day is done"

Both a whirlwind and a cloudburst normally lasts no longer than a few minutes.

That'll say the two hopes are always self-fulfilling.

So ,I think that sentence was designed to mock what he would have considered a nonsensical argument.

I read Laozi's arguement as not mocking but logically:

What causes these to happen?

Heaven and earth as likely as being made earlier than one's big brother?

Therefore is the following standard as likely as Tao is Tao and Te is Te:

If a loss was lost by Te,

and if Tao together with Te share losses,

then is Tao additionally becoming the lost.

He says, that the logicans only focus on Te and therefore forget Tao.

Or as a metaphor: making Tao the little brother of Te.

That'll say he uses a paradox to argue against the logicians paradoxes!

The first three lines of the chapter are about what today is called Self-fulfilling Prophecies.

That'll say he nicknames The School of Names as The School of Self-fulfilling Prophecies.

The opening lines of the Mawangdui Tao Te Ching chapter 23 are:

Hopes spoken self-fulfilling are:

"The whirlwind might not last the morning out"

"The cloudburst might end before the day is done"

What causes these to happen?

Heaven and earth as likely as being made earlier than one's big brother?

Therefore ...........

The last opening line refers to the paradoxes of the logicians; for example:

I go to Yue today and come yesterday.

Perhaps relying on a past-progressive tense for "come",

indistinguishable from present tense in Classical Chinese.

The logicans themselves explained their paradoxes this way:

"On Names and Actualities"

Heaven and earth participate in the things that they give birth to: all together are ‘things’. When a thing is taken as a thing according to what makes it a thing without excess, that is ‘actuality’. When actuality actually fulfills its character as actuality without deficiency, that is ‘occupying a position’. If one goes beyond that which is the character of a position, that is not occupying a position. To fulfill the position of one’s position is ‘correct’. To take what has been corrected to correct what has not been corrected is to introduce doubt about what has been corrected. What is corrected is the character of a position as actuality. To correct its character as actuality is to correct its name.

子貢曰：我不欲人之加諸我也，吾亦欲無加諸人。

子曰：賜也，非爾所及也 。

Zi Gong said: "What I do not wish men to do to me, I also wish not to do to men."

The Master said: "If a gift, then it is not you who offer."

You are right. The heart radical was added to heng when changing to seal script,

and the divination radical was added to heng when changing from oraclebone script.

As to HENG... the boat and heart radical are not till hundreds of years after the Guodian... added by the northern elite after unification and burning of books and creation of dictionaries with some glosses which are silly at times...

I think that is why you don't really see the idea of eternalness in the ancient cosmologies.

It is more often spoken in terms of Absolute, Ultimate, Nothingness, Primordial, Spaceless, Boundless Void, etc...

They are describing the "Absolute-state-of-before-ness".

A (prior to Laozi) taoist cosmology was TaiYiShengShui "The Great One gave birth to Water".

Emptiness may be synonymous with The Great One?

Laozi dealt with this taoist cosmology in the Guodian chapter 25 this way:

字之曰道

吾強為之名曰大

大曰潰

潰曰轉

轉曰返

........

道法自然

The character is called Tao.

I stengthen it by calling it Great.

Great is called a dam failure.

A dam failure is called Large.

Large is called a fanqie.

......

Tao is ruled by self-fulfilling.

A fanqie: Early dictionaries such as the Erya (3rd century BC) indicated the pronunciation of a character

by the method of dú ruò (讀若, "read as"), giving another character with the same pronunciation.

My own take on the character 恆 heng is that the character is a picture of the pulsation.

A boat between two shores and a heart radical. The pulsation is both durating and independent of our will.

I am a dane ... welcome

My main interests here are two-fold: that the English translation you end up with is smooth and grammatically correct and most important, the significance of Ziran (Tzu-jan) as you have translated it to "Self-fulfilling".

 

(Sorry Cat, "self-igniting" just doesn't seem adequately descriptive.)

I'm not producing an English translation! I read the exavacated Tao Te Ching versions in the original language

training my brain in the same way as others practize "material arts" training their bodies.

Chapter 23 is about what's today is called "self-fulfilling prophecies" ( hopeful sayings zi ran)

I like Cat's point of view. Self-igniting and self-fulfilling are related terms, and what is the definition of "eternal"?

I know the modern definition, but how did the chinese define "eternal" around 350 BC?

Maybe more work on the last one?

The sentence is much longer than I thought ... all in all 35 characters

道之尊 也 德之貴 也 夫莫之爵 也 而恆自然 也 道生之畜之長之育之亭之毒之養之覆之

The first 也 character marks a subject clause (The dignifying of Tao)

The three other 也 characters mark three subordinate clauses.

The dignifying of Tao

(the high-ranking Te)

(a man cannot ennoble it)

(thus independently self-fulfilling)

is Tao made giving birth, made breeding, made elevated, made produced,

made erected, made poisoned, made raised, made returned.

之 after a verb means "made" creating an adverbial phrase according to Pulleyblank.

The last four lines of the chapter describe the opposite of "the high-ranking Te":

Giving birth yet no existence.

Acting yet no dependence.

Elevated yet no dominance.

This is called the profound Te.

道之尊也 德之貴也 夫莫之爵也 而恆自然也

 

The two first 也 characters mark the two subject clauses (honoring Tao and prizing Te)

The third 也 character marks a subordinate clause (a man cannot order them)

The fourth 也 character marks an object clause (your independent self-fulfillings)

The character 而 was used grammatically to mark a series of verbs: 尊 and 貴 and 自然

Because a man cannot ennoble them, are the dignifying of Tao and the elevating of Te independently self-fulfilling.

That'll say the dignifying of Tao results in the ennobling of Tao like a self-fulfilling prophecy.

That'll say the elevating of Te results in the ennobling of Te like a self-fulfilling prophecy.

If one read 恆 as always instead of independently then due to grammar / context:

Because a man cannot ennoble it, is the dignifying of Tao, the high-ranking Te, always self-fulfilling.

self ignition means self renewing, which means eternal.

A definition of eternal is existing outside of time

You're right if self-igniting isn't an answer to when?

It is still a tongue twister for an English speaking person.

Honoring Tao and esteeming Te, a man cannot order them, and always self-fulfilling.

The character 恆 is in this reading of the sentence, due to grammar, an adverb.

Independently looks in the context wrong to me, so I try the traditional always.

Maybe more work on the last one?

When a man cannot order them are honoring Tao and prizing Te your independent self-fulfillings.

道之尊也 德之貴也 夫莫之爵也 而恆自然也

The two first 也 characters mark the two subject clauses (honoring Tao and prizing Te)

The third 也 character marks a subordinate clause (a man cannot order them)

The fourth 也 character marks an object clause (your independent self-fulfillings)

I think "self-igniting" shows some of this direction as would taking "然 right/correct" to mean "self-permitting/self-correcting" though, again, this is just a direction of the meaning rather than literal meaning.

An english word that matches all five uses of zi ran in the exavacated Tao Te Ching is self-fulfilling

The Guodian chapter 17

When job's successfully done people say: "Our self-fulfilling".

The Mawangdui B chapter 23

The self-fulfilling of prophecies: "A whirlwind doesn't last a whole morning".

The Guodian chapter 25

Tao is ruled by self-fulfilling.

The Guodian chapter 64

A talent helps the self-fulfilling of everyone like the acting of no courage.

The Mawangdui B chapter 51

When a man cannot order them is Your Te, when honoring Tao, your independent self-fulfilling.

So 自然 would appear "just as itself."

自 was always followed by a verb, according to Pulleyblank, so 然 is a verb.

Here's my reading of the five passages where zi ran occurs in Tao Te Ching:

The Guodian chapter 17

When job's done people say: "Our self-igniting".

The Mawangdui chapter 23

The self-igniting of a hopeful prayer: "A whirlwind doesn't last a whole morning".

The Guodian chapter 25

Tao is ruled by self-igniting.

The Guodian chapter 64

A talent helps the self-igniting of everything like the acting of no courage.

The Mawangdui chapter 51

Honoring Tao and prizing Te. A man cannot command them. Hence independent self-igniting.

The last passage containing both Tao and Te together with heng and zi ran is most important.

Tao and Te are both self-igniting but independent in my understanding of the exavacated text.

Self igniting is also the answer to when.

 

not just self igniting on tuesdays.

But eternal is not the answer to how?

I found the character in the ancient Shuo Wen dictionary defining 然.

燒也從火肰聲臣鉉等曰今俗別作燃蓋後人增加 (the sixth character from behind)

自燃 was probably the usual way to say "self-igniting" when referring to the physical process?

自然. was if so a way so say "self-igniting" indicating, that it must be read not litterally but as a metaphor!

self-igniting is an answer to how? and eternal is an answer to when?

The last two charaters of the first line are 恆道 traditionally translated as "eternal Tao".

恆 means "eternal" in modern chinese but it had another meaning in Pre-Qin time.

The change of meaning can be dated to Qin or very early Han time this way:

恆 is the name of hexagram 32 in the Book of Changes (I Ching).

恆我 "I/us" was the name of hexagram 32 in the exavacated Mawangdui version.

Both "eternal I" and "eternal us" are pure nonsense.

"independent I" and "independent us" make sense and match the chapter 25 endlines:

man is ruled by earth

earth is ruled by heaven

heaven is ruled by Tao

Tao is ruled by self-igniting

自燃 (zi ran) translated as "self-igniting" explained grammatically:

自 meant "self" and preceeded in pre-Qin chinese always a verb.

燃 meant as a verb "to burn/to ignite".

Yeah ... I know that grammar is booooooring to most of you

That's a solid tip! lol

Yeah - that's the way of no doing (wu wei in the taoist terminology)

The practice of no offering tips gives rise to a no looking for tips behavior.

Looking for tips on how to stop looking for tips

Don't offer tips is my tip

"When Rotating in Worship of Heaven, the sound of thunder is everywhere and transforms everything."

The pinyin of the first prayer translated into the pre-Qin classical chinese language:

tian xia lei zhi sheng ye tian bai zhi xuan ye yi wan wu

下天雷之声也天拜之旋也易萬物

I hope that the above can help you in your search

The one and only principle that all Taoists hold in common is

that we all use the chinese character 道 (Tao in english)

when referring to "what cannot be explained".

We are in all other aspects different and thanks for that

Hi Jayjay from one of the guys ... not interested in chatting with the girls?

I know that 矣 at the end of the first sentence marks the sentence as a rethorical question:

慎終若始則無敗事矣

人之敗也恒於其且成也敗之

 

Being careful in the end as well as in the beginning and then no dropping accident?

Independently from them both fullfilled, the dropping of humanity drops him.

The second line explained in the language of the TaoBum board:

Flowing Hands is a holy man ( 聖人 read as an adjective + a noun )

His three immortals are sages ( 聖人 read as compound characters )

The going to the toilet (a gerund) of Flowing Hands is humanly.

The no going to the toilet (a negative gerund) of his three immortals is not humanly.