lienshan

i am not sure if lienshan has printed his translations to english yet, he changes them a lot; have ya, sir?

1. The Name and Itself in one phrase? Near to!

2. Itself and Property in one phrase? Too much!

3. Gain and Offering in one phrase? To throw up!

 

4. Extreme benevolence necessarily great expenses.

5. Abundant wealth necessarily many offerings.

 

6. Therefore:

 

7. Knowledge of enough isn't a disgrace,

8. to know stopping not nearly,

9. however because of to be good at the former.

 

Cheers

not familiar with that version of the tao te ching, but sounds interesting enough to get a copy and compare

with other translations.

The Guodian Dao De Jing was buried about 316 BCE and exavacated in 1993.

It's the oldest known version written in original bronze characters on bamboo slips.

The Guodian chapter 44 is almost like the modern Received version of the chapter, but ...

 

The Received Heshang Gong version of chapter 44

 

1. ming yu shen shu qin

2. shen yu huo shu duo

3. de yu wang shu bing

4. shen ai bi da fei

5. duo cang bi hou wang

6.

7. zhi zu bu ru

8. zhi zhi bu dai

9. ke yi chang jiu

 

The Guodian version of chapter 44

 

1. ming yu shen shu qin

2. shen yu huo shu duo

3. de yu 'gui' shu bing

4. shen ai bi da fei

5. hou cang bi duo 'gui'

6. gu

7. zhi zu bu ru

8. zhi zhi bu dai

9. ke yi chang jiu

 

About the differences between the two versions in details:

 

3. The character wang of the Received version means "death, destroyed, lose, perish". The bronze character 'gui' of the Guodian version looks almost exactly like the character gui meaning "a square basket of bamboo for holding grain used at sacrifices", but without the content (two strokes) of the basket. The upper part of the character is thus similar to the bronze character wang. The chinese (read marxist) scholars have, neglecting the meaning of the lower part of the character, interpreted the whole character as wang, probably peeping the Received version of the character? The lower part of the Guodian character is bei meaning "sea shell; money, currency", and I interprete the character as meaning "offering", peeping the context of the chapter.

 

5. The characters hou "thick, substantial, greatly" and duo "much, many, more than" are reversed in the Received version, probably because hou wang makes more sense than duo wang?

 

6. The gu character meaning "therefore" has been dismissed in the Received version.

 

9. The Guodian jiu character meaning "the former", pointing at the 7th line, has in the Received version been replaced by another jiu character meaning "forever", which influences the meaning of the last three concluding lines.

 

I've made a computer word-by-word translation of the Guodian chapter 44 for you:

 

http://chinese.dsturgeon.net/dictionary.pl...%95%B7%E8%88%8A

 

You can copy and paste every single chinese character of the row of characters above into the site below and see, what the original bronze characters looked like ... enjoy

 

http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterA...mologyHome.aspx

i am not sure if lienshan has printed his translations to english yet, he changes them a lot; have ya, sir?

Reading Dao De Jing is to me synonymous with translating Dao De Jing.

I have a change of mind every time I read one of the chapters once again.

That's why I change my translations a lot and that's why my translations never go into print.

 

Laozi's main target in this chapter is Mozi.

The two headlines of the mohist philosophy were "universal love" and "benefit the people".

Laozi shows by logic, that the two mohist paroles treated as one parole is a selfcontradiction:

 

1. Name and Self. One word? Even!

2. Self and Property. One word? Addition!

3. Benefit and Offering. One word? Subtraction!

 

4. Exceedingly love necessarily great expenses.

5. Abundant wealth necessarily many offerings.

 

6. Therefore:

 

7. To know when enough isn't a subtraction.

8. To know when to stop isn't even, but because of to be good at the former.

The Guodian version of the Dao De Jing chapter 44

 

1. name + self = even

2. self + property = an addition

3. gains + offerings = a subtraction

 

4. exceedingly love necessarily great expenses

5. abundant wealth necessarily many offerings

 

6. therefore

 

7. to know when enough isn't a subtraction

8. to know when to stop isn't even

9. however because of to be good at the former

 

 

1. ming yu shen shu qin

2. shen yu huo shu duo

3. de yu gui shu bing

 

4. shen ai bi da fei

5. hou cang bi duo gui

 

6. gu

 

7. zhi zu bu ru

8. zhi zhi bu dai

9. ke yi chang jiu

 

(the character gui means offering, but is misread wang meaning disappear by the scholars)

Dao breeds, De raises, the content appears and the container completes?

 

The precise take is: Everybody drinks Dao and eats De!

 

A wine container of Dao? A food container of De?

 

These cannot be ordered, nevertheless constant available!

 

Dao breeds, raises, grows, matures, erects, fertilizes, impregnates?

 

Soft breeding (and so no acting of having and so no growing of serving and so no ruling)

is indeed the De of the darkness of the womb!

Dao breeds,

De raises,

The content appears,

The container completes.

 

The precise take is: Everybody drinks Dao and eats De!

 

A wine container of Dao?

A food container of De?

 

These cannot be ordered, nevertheless constant available!

 

Dao breeds, raises, grows, matures, erects, fertilizes, impregnates!

 

The breeding of sloping ?

And so no acting of having?

And so no growing of serving?

 

And so is no ruling indeed the De of the darkness of the womb!

you can do "good" without thinking about fame but fame will follow in its wake, fame makes no tryst with gain, yet gain will come all the same, gain makes no tryst with strife, yet strife will certainly ensue, therefore the "superior" person is very cautious about doing the "good"

Why cautious? "Doing the good" is "To do away with to have no De"!

 

That's how I read Laozi's definition of De in chapter 38. De is a verb meaning "to do away with to have no De"

The character De is only a word-symbol, literal meaning virtue, like the character Dao is only a word-symbol,

literal meaning road. De meaning "to do away with to have no De" is the definition of the wu wei De principle.

Doing the "good" (benevolence) is the wei De principle.

 

Yang Chu seems to have had a different approach to De than Laozi

I read these two lines:

 

1. Upward virtue has no action, and so no motive for action.

2. Downward virtue is acted, and so has a motive for action.

 

as Laozi testing the confucian Golden Rule in both variations related to De (virtue):

 

1. "don't treat your superiors as you wouldn't want your inferiors to treat you"

2. "treat your inferiors just as you would want your superiors to treat you"

 

I read the next two "arm wrestling" lines:

 

The highest benevolence is acted, yet has no motive for action?

The highest righteousness is acted, yet has a motive for action?

 

as Laozi showing the nonsense, when The Highest (with no superior) acts benevolence (virtue):

 

The Master (Confucius) said, "... Now the man of perfect virtue, wishing to be established himself,

seeks also to establish others; wishing to be enlarged himself, he seeks also to enlarge others.

To be able to judge of others by what is nigh in ourselves - this may be called the art of virtue."

(the Analects 6:30)

 

The Highest is not "wishing to be enlarged himself" and has therefore no motive

Confucius's Ren (benevolence) and Laozi's De (virtue) are both named "complementarity" in english;

the english word has two meanings:

 

Confucius Ren - complementarity - the interrelation of reciprocity whereby one thing supplements or depends on the other - reciprocality, reciprocity - a relation of mutual dependence or action or influence

 

Laozi De - complementarity - a relation between two opposite states or principles that together exhaust the possibilities - ungradable opposition - an opposition that has no intermediate grade; either one or the other

 

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/complementarity

 

Confucius defines Ren (benevolence) as a complementarity in The Analects 15:24

 

Zi Gong asked, saying, "Is there one word which may serve as a rule of practice for all one's life?"

The Master said, "Is not reciprocity such a word? What you do not want done to yourself, do not do to others."

 

http://chinese.dsturgeon.net/text.pl?node=1096&if=en

 

Laozi describes Confucius's reciprocity in Dao De Jing chapter 38:

 

The sacrifier turns faithfulness into thinness, and so into the beginning of confusion.

The soothsayer turns Dao into highness, yet only then into foolishness.

 

Laozi defines De (virtue) as a complementarity in chapter 38:

 

The precise take is to have no virtue.

The precise take is to have virtue.

Because to do away with that, and so experience this!

 

The last line is too defining the principle of wu wei:

To do away with to have no De is to experience to have De

 

My translation of Dao De Jing chapter 38 looks like this at the moment:

 

High virtue or virtue?

The precise take is to have virtue!

Low virtue or lost virtue?

The precise take is to have no virtue!

 

Upward virtue has no action, and so no motive for action.

Downward virtue is acted, and so has a motive for action.

 

The highest benevolence is acted, yet has no motive for action?

The highest righteousness is acted, yet has a motive for action?

The highest ritual is acted, yet no one reacts abide by the rules of arm wrestling,

and so is pinned down the reason for lost Dao,

and so is virtue ending in lost virtue,

and so is benevolence ending in lost benevolence,

and so is righteousness ending in lost righteousness,

and so is the ritual ending:

 

The sacrifier turns faithfulness into thinness, and so into the beginning of confusion.

The soothsayer turns Dao into highness, yet only then into foolishness.

 

The precise take is a large ten feet tall sage.

Is his thickness existing or is his thinness existing?

Is his greatness existing or is his highness existing?

Because to do away with that, and so experience this!

The last section is the philosophical conclusion of the chapter. It's more clear in my newest translation, because of the change in the two lines above. I now think, that the characters fu li zhe means "sacrifier", that'll say one who treat your inferiors, and the characters qian shi zhe means "soothsayer", that'll say one who just as you would want your superiors to treat you:

 

The sacrifier turns faithfulness into thinness, and so into the beginning of confusion.

The soothsayer turns Dao into highness, yet only then into foolishness.

 

The precise take is a great ten feet high sage.

Is his thickness existing or is his thinness existing?

Is his greatness existing or is his highness existing?

Because to do away with that, and so receive this!

 

The last line is so to speak "muddy" as indicated by your quoted chapters 24 and 15. Laozi is in my reading of the line using the confucian argument "treat your inferiors just as you would want your superiors to treat you" towards the argument itself: "do away with" refers to "treat" and "receive" refers to "would want".

but when one correspondingly performs arm wrestling what is the underlying principle of that with which they wrestle?

The principle (The rule of arm wrestling) is the confucian "Golden Rule":

 

"treat your inferiors just as you would want your superiors to treat you"

 

The confucian concept of virtue consists of two sides, superior virtue and inferior virtue, acting like two opponants in an arm wrestling contest. Superior benevolence equals inferior benevolence. Superior righteousness equals inferior righteousness. But superior propriety has no reaction and inferior propriety has thus it's arm laid down so to speak and becomes lost propriety.

 

The chapter 38 is extremely difficult to read/understand/translate and I'm still working on it:

 

Upwardly virtue isn't virtue.

The precise take is to have virtue.

Downwardly virtue isn't lost virtue.

The precise take is to have no virtue.

 

Upwardly virtue has no action, yet no incentive for action?

Downwardly virtue is acted, yet has an incentive for action?

Upwardly benevolence is acted, yet has no incentive for action?

Upwardly righteousness is acted, yet has an incentive for action?

Upwardly propriety is acted, yet no one reacts to the rule of arm wrestling,

and so is the inevitable result lost Dao,

and so is virtue ending in lost virtue,

and so is benevolence ending in lost benevolence,

and so is righteousness ending in lost righteousness,

and so is propriety ending in the thinness of sagely propriety,

that which is the evidence of faithfulness,

and thus in the beginning of confusion.

 

Preceding perception,

that which is Dao,

is ending in magnificence,

and thus in the beginning of foolishness.

 

The precise take is a great ten feet high sage.

Is his thickness existing or is his thinness existing?

Is his greatness existing or is his magnificence existing?

Because to do away with that, and so receive this!

From Tao Te Ching Ch. 5:

 

Heaven and earth have no mercy.

They treat everything as straw dogs.

 

What does this paragraph mean exactly? Does it mean every thing has no inherent existence? Or Lao Tzu means something else.

The translation "have no mercy" is somewhat confusing; "aren't benevolent" is a more precise translation.

Laozi is referring to the confucian term "ren" (benevolence), which is synonymous with "The Golden Rule":

 

"treat your inferiors just as you would want your superiors to treat you" (the analects chapter 15:24)

tian di bu ren yi wan wu wei chu gou

sheng ren bu ren yi bai xing wei chu gou

 

heaven and earth aren't benevolent by treating everything like dogs of straw

sages aren't benevolent by treating the hundred surnames like dogs of straw

 

Dogs of straw were first honoured and trampled upon.

'The hundred surnames' was an ancient nickname meaning 'the Zhou nobility'.

 

'The hundred surnames' changed meaning to 'common people' after 375 BCE, when common people too got the priviledge of having a surname. The Zhou nobility thus lost one of their priviledges: the right to return their surname to the ruler in order to have a punishment reduced, when they had commited a crime.

 

The two lines are therefore saying, that "equal and impartial justice under the law" isn't benevolent in regard to the hundred surnames (the Zhou nobility), and that benevolence thus results in "unfair and partial justice under the law" in regard to the hundred surnames (common people).

High virtue or virtue?

The precise take is to have virtue.

Low virtue or lost virtue?

The precise take is to have no virtue.

 

High virtue has no action, and thus no motivation.

Low virtue is acted, yet has motivation.

High benevolence is acted, yet has no motivation.

High righteousness is acted, yet has motivation.

High propriety is acted, yet there is no reaction.

 

Arm wrestling is performed correspondingly,

and so is the inevitable cause of lost Dao,

and thus is virtue ending in lost virtue,

and thus is benevolence ending in lost benevolence,

and thus is righteousness ending in lost righteousness,

and thus is propriety ending in the thinness of sagely propriety,

that which is the evidence of faithfulness,

and thus in the beginning of confusion.

 

Preceding perception,

that which is Dao,

is ending in wonderfulness,

and thus in the beginning of foolishness.

 

The precise take is a ten feet high sage.

Is his thickness existing or is his thinness existing?

Is his greatness existing or is his wonderfulness existing?

Because to do away with that and thus choose this!

 

Dao De Jing chapter 38

Can you see the lines where it turns against you and works for you, as well as works for others?

actual desire = I want something I don't have.

desire = I want something others have.

Perhaps desire is a form of attachment? Or maybe vice-versa...

Desire is described in Dao De Jing chapter 1 ... here in the Mawangdui B version:

 

Dao admissible Dao (pause) isn't constant Dao (pause)

names admissible the name (pause) aren't constant names (pause)

potential is named fertilizing the ten thousand things (pause)

actual is named breast-feeding the ten thousand things (pause)

consequently: constant is potential

desire (pause) is therefore observing the pregnancy constant

actual desire is therefore observing the newborn child

both two manifesting together are unfamilar names equaling stomach

the actual darkness of darkness is the exit door of multitude pregnancies

 

There are two types of desire: desire (yu) and actual desire (you yu)

There are two types of action: action (wei) and potential action (wu wei)

My question is about the translations into English of the Tao Te Ching.

 

I have relied upon the 1990 translation by Victor H. Mair based on the then "recently discovered Ma-Wang-Tui manuscripts".

 

I am curious about any consensus on particular translations, other translation recommendations or translation/lineage links... and also personal perspectives.

Try Nina Correa's Tao Te Ching translation forum: http://forum.daoisopen.com/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=5

 

It's second to none, if you are specifically interested in chinese-english Tao Te Ching translation details:

There is also a site with the Guodian bamboo slips: http://www.daoisopen.com/A11toA13Chapters25516.html

And too a site comparing all Tao Te Ching versions: http://www.daoisopen.com/Comparisons.html

 

You ask for "personal perspectives"? Here are some of mine related to the B version of Ma-Wang-Tui:

 

It's a unique Tao Te Ching version written in the years 201-199 BCE. Some of its phrases relate to the civil war 206-202 BCE and some details of the A version indicates, that the copyist of the A version knew the B version, and the A version is copied no later than 196 BCE according to its use of the taboo character bang. What makes the Ma-Wang-Tui B version unique is, that the lines are numerical structured mirroring from the middle of each chapter. E.g. If the first line consists of 8 characters, then the last line too consists of 8 characters. That's the reason why this version include a lot of "fill-characters", that are not included in the received version. Their function is to make the number of characters match the numerical line structure of each chapter.

 

The Ma-Wang-Tui Tao Te Ching B version is therefore in my opinion telling, how Tao Te Ching was interpreted in the Kingdom of Chansha in early Han-dynasty times. It's great constructed, but the content is not superior to the Received version and the Guodian version.

Count the dots in each section and you get:

1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9 = 35 turtle shell scutes

 

This basic mathematical understanding was eventually formalised into the I Ching by King Wen (1766-1121 B.C.)

I've seen quite a few explanations of the connection between the Lo Shu diagram and the King Wen hexagram sequence.

They all have this in common, that each explanation only can be understood by the one explaining

 

lienshan

It's very easy, at least conceptually. You start with yourself.

Start with a face lift?

The Mawangdui B chapter 12 consist of 7 pieces of rearranged texts from the Received chapter 12:

 

1th piece: wu3 se4 shi3 ren2 mu4 mang2

4th piece: chi4 cheng3 tian2 lie4

5th piece: shi3 ren2 xin1 fa1 kuang2 nan2 de2 zhi1 huo4 0

3th piece: shi3 ren2 zhi1 kou3 shuang3

2th piece: wu3 yin1 shi3 ren2 zhi1 er3 (long2)

6th piece: shi4 yi3 sheng4 ren2 zhi1 zhi4 ye3

7th piece: wei2 fu4 er2 bu4 wei2 mu4 gu4 qu4 bi3 er2 qu3 ci3

 

The characters not in bold have been added.

The 0 is a character omitted by the scribe.

The (long2) is a damaged character.

 

The Mawangdui B chapter 12 is divided into these sentences of mirrored numbers of characters:

 

2: wu3 se4

8: shi3 ren2 mu4 mang2 chi4 cheng3 tian2 lie4

9: shi3 ren2 xin1 fa1 kuang2 nan2 de2 zhi1 huo4

5: shi3 ren2 zhi1 kou3 shuang3

2: wu3 yin1

5: shi3 ren2 zhi1 er3 long2

9: shi4 yi3 sheng4 ren2 zhi1 zhi4 ye3 wei2 fu4

8: er2 bu4 wei2 mu4 gu4 qu4 bi3 er2

2: qu3 ci3

 

five colors

cause man to see blind doing horseracing and fieldhunting

cause man to go mad having difficulty to obtain his goods

cause man his mouth is happy

five sounds

cause man his ears are deaf

yes therefore wise man his government : acting belly

and then not acting eyes because leaving that and then

receive these

 

The word stomach is in the Dao De Jing chapter 1 described with the character wei4.

It means both the outside you3 actual/existing and the inside wu2 potential/not-existing of a stomach.

The character fu4 meaning belly used here in chapter 12 means only the inside of a stomach.

Therefore I interprete the term wei2 fu4 as similar to wu2 wei2.

All chapters of the Mawangdui B Dao De Jing are divided into sentences according to the number of characters.

The number of characters structure is mirrored around the single character er2 in the middle of the chapter 23.

The character yu2 in the sixth sentence is grammatical marking the verb of the sentence as dative.

The character zhi1 at the end is grammatical changing the preceeding character shi1 into a verb.

 

6: xi1 yan2 zi4 ran2 piao1 feng1

3: bu4 dong1 zhao1

5: zhou4 yu3 bu4 zhong1 ri4

2: shu2 wei2

5: ci3 tian1 di4 er2 fu2

5: neng2 jiu3 you3 xiong1 yu2

5: ren2 hu1 gu4 cong2 shi4

1: er2

5: dao4 zhe3 tong2 yu2 dao4

5: de2 zhe3 tong2 yu2 de2

5: shi1 zhe3 tong2 yu2 shi1

2: tong2 yu2

5: de2 zhe3 dao4 yi4 de2

3: zhi1 tong2 yu2

6: shi1 zhe3 dao4 yi4 shi1 zhi1

 

please speak self like the cyclone wind

not the winter morning

suddenly rain doesn't finish the sun

which one is acting?

in this case heaven and earth and then nothing

was an elder brother existing long time ago?

was a human being ! because since matter

and then

Dao that which is similar to Dao

De that which is similar to De

a loss that which is similar to a loss

similar to

De that which is Dao is also De

go to similar to

a loss that which is Dao is also lost

hi everyone. could you tell me what "heaven" means in this quote?

 

People conform to

the Laws of the Earth.

 

The Earth conforms to

the Law of Heaven.

 

Heaven conforms to

the Way (Tao)

 

The Tao conforms to

its own nature.

 

-Lao Tzu

 

I'm never quite sure what taoists/ism mean by "heaven".

thanks

meg

Your Dao De Jing chapter 25 quote looks like this in all versions (including the Guodian Laozi):

 

ren2 fa3 di4

people standard earth

di4 fa3 tian1

earth standard heaven

tian1 fa3 dao4

heaven standard Dao

dao4 fa3 zi4 ran2

Dao standard self so

 

Put in short: fa3 standard was the non-confucian solution to rectifying names. The confucian policy was, that the ruler, using either an innate or acquired intuition, was supposed to settle the correct language use. Shen Dao had the sociological point of view, that the ruler will influence usage. The mohists agreed with him, but maintained that tian1 heaven should be taken as the ultimate fa3 standard.

 

Dao De Jing has four fa3 standards. tian1 heaven is involved in two of the standards. That's why there is no single answer to your question, because the answer depends on the fa3 standard used! Or put in other words: earth standard sky and heaven standard Dao.

 

lienshan

Mawangdui B chapter 1

 

dao4 ke3 dao4 ye3

a-Dao admissible Dao (pause)

fei1 heng2 dao4 ye3

isn't constant a-Dao (pause)

ming2 ke3 ming2 ye3

a-name admissible name (pause)

fei1 heng2 ming2 ye3

isn't constant a-name (pause)

wu2 ming2 wan4 wu4 zhi1 shi3 ye3

without a-name ten-thousand things go-to conception (pause)

you3 ming2 wan4 wu4 zhi1 mu3 ye3

with a-name ten-thousand things go-to breast-feeding (pause)

gu4 heng2 wu2 yu4 yi3 guan1 qi2 miao3

therefore constant without desire because-of observing the secret

heng2 you3 yu4 yi3 guan1 qi2 suo3 jiao4

constant with desire because-of observing the that-which cry

liang3 zhe3 tong2 chu1

pair these together to-appear

yi4 ming2 tong2 wei4

strange names are together the-stomach

xuan2 zhi1 you4 xuan2

darkness + its existing darkness

zhong4 miao3 zhi1 men2

multitude secrets go-to the-opening

 

The first four lines of the Dao De Jing chapter 1 are like the mohist distinctions (bian1).

The four mohist terms are ke3 admissible, bu4 ke3 not admissible, shi2 right, fei1 wrong.

 

ming2 ke3 ming2

a name admissible name

shi2 heng2 ming2

is a constant name

 

The distinction above tells something about the way I treat heng2 constant in my translation.

The phrase constant observing is used in both the lines 7 and 8. Someone observing is you3 existing,

but is able to observe both wu2 not existing and you3 existing according to the lines 7 and 8.

Therefore is constant you3 existing according to the terms of the lines 5 and 6.

These two corresponding distinctions explain in other words:

 

you3 ke3 ming2

an existence admissible name

shi2 you3 you3

is an existing existence

 

you3 ke3 ming2

an existence admissible name

fei1 wu2 you3

isn't a not existing existence

 

That's why translations like "isn't the constant name" and "isn't the constant Dao" are fei1 wrong.

That's why translations like "isn't constant the name" and "isn't constant the Dao" are shi2 right.

 

lienshan

The Mawangdui B version of Dao De Jing is technically of poor quality and copied later than the scholarly edited A version, but I think that it might be a copy of the very first compiled Dao De Jing in 81 chapters, as we know it today? It's easy to break the lines of the Mawangdui B chapters, because the first lines contain exactly the same amount of characters as the last lines. Breaking the lines of the other Dao De Jing versions is on the contrary often a matter of personal interpretation.

 

Enjoy the Mawangdui B Dao De Jing chapter 17:

 

da4 shang4 xia4 zhi1

great superior inferior knowledge (an confucian theory)

you3 zhi1 qi2 ci4

existence go-to its next (if the theory is practized follows)

qin1 yu4 zhi1 qi2 ci4

kinrelated praise go-to its next (praise by his grandson Zizi)

wei4 zhi1 qi2 xia4 mu3

awe go-to its inferior mother (awe to the inventor Confucius)

zhi1 xin4 bu4 zu2

go-to sincerity not enough (awe to a person is not admissible)

an1 you3 bu4 xin4 you2

thereupon exists not sincere planning (thereupon wrong policy)

he1 qi2 gui4 yan2 ye3

HO-HO its noble statesment (pause) (the confucian slogan is:)

cheng2 gong1 sui4

finishing achievement satisfied

shi4 er2 bai3 xing4

serving also hundred surnames

wei4 wo3 zi4 ran2

stomach we ourselves yes

 

lienshan