lienshan

You could ask, who was quoting who?

Shen Dao's arguement was: "Though one's bow is weak, if one shots from a great high, one's arrow will fly swifter than the wind." That'll say, one's strategic position (shi) is superior to knowledge, trustworthy, expertice and advantageousness.

 

If Lao Zhu is quoting Shen Dao, then it's because he doesn't agree, and Lao Zhu's chapter 19 must therefore be read/translated as argueing against Shen Dao's "strategic position" slogans.

 

If Shen Dao is quoting Lao Tsu, then is "Terminate wisdom, abandon worthiness, Terminate expertice, abandon advantageousness" explained with arguements in chapter 19 or elsewhere?

 

But I can't find any explanation or arguement? Where's the logic?

 

"Terminate expertice" e.g. how do you explain to the many practioneers of Tai Chi and other techniques promoted and practiced by many users on The Tao Bums, that they according to Lao Tzu shall "Terminate expertice"?

If these four paroles are not Shen Dao quotes:

 

Terminate wisdom, abandon worthiness.

Terminate expertice, abandon advantageousness.

 

But Lao Zhu's own paroles written before 479 BC,

then please explain their wisdom to me?

 

I'm serious! They do not match other chapters?

Henricks also states that Chapters 17, 18, and 19 should be read together as a unit.

Henricks is right. Here is my explanation why:

 

Chapter 19 was one of Lao Tzu's first chapters written when he was very young!

He commentated six Shen Dao slogans (in bold in my Guodian translation).

Later on, when Lao Tzu had grown mature and developed his brilliant insight,

then he wrote a new commentary (the chapters 17-18) to his own chapter 19:

 

17

Inferior scholars have a great -er -est superior.

Greatest when giving personal praise to him.

Greater when being afraid of him.

Great when insulting him.

Trust lacks; resulting in a scheme of distrust?

The fulfilled success of a completed task,

the superlative meaning of the phrase,

is like "myself" being added whenever common people say "I".

18

Therefore is even Greatest a belittling of Dao

resulting in benevolence and righteousness.

The six relations are not harmonious

resulting in filial piety and compassion.

The state matters are muddled and confused

resulting in appropriate officials.

19

Terminate wisdom, abandon worthiness.

And the people will benefit a hundredfold?

Terminate expertice, abandon advantageousness.

And there will be no robbers and thieves?

Terminate hypocricy, abandon duplicity.

And the people will revert to youngest children?

 

Suppose that forethought lacks?

One orders those three statements.

One being in a position subordinate to.

 

To watch the unadulted protects simplicity.

To diminish privacy lessens wishful thinking.

........................................................................

 

The Chapter 17 refers to the six Shen Dao slogans of chapter 19 by:

"Trust lacks; resulting in a scheme of distrust?"

 

These lines in chapter 18:

"The six relations are not harmonious

resulting in filial piety and compassion."

refer to these lines in chapter 19:

"Terminate hypocricy, abandon duplicity.

And the people will revert to youngest children?"

 

These lines in chapter 18:

"The state matters are muddled and confused

resulting in appropriate officials."

refer to these lines in chapter 19:

"Terminate expertice, abandon advantageousness.

And there will be no robbers and thieves?"

 

These lines in chapter 18:

"Therefore is even Greatest a belittling of Dao

resulting in benevolence and righteousness."

refer to these lines in chapter 19:

"Terminate wisdom, abandon worthiness.

And the people will benefit a hundredfold?"

 

Shen Dao had more slogans e.g. "Great Dao" and "Great One".

Shen Dao belonged to the Huang-Lao school and is today named a legalist.

I don't know how accurate this translation is but I really like it.

故 大 道 廢

therefore great dao belittling

 

"therefore greatest" due to the above "the superlative meaning of the phrase"

 

 

Yes, Henricks noted that the last two lines should be the first two lines of Chapter 18.

Henricks is wrong. His "last two lines" is half of one long last line:

 

(亓 貴 言) 也 成 事 遂 功 而 (百 姓 曰 我) 自 然 也

 

I've inserted () to show the two noun clauses marked by the two 也 characters.

The core of this sentence construction is 而 ... closed by 然

That's how to refer to what have been said. I will spare you for the detailes,

but Zhuangzi used the same sentence construction in his "fish dialogue".

 

 

And I also think it is fair to use the word 'scholars' in place of 'rulers' (if the Chinese allows for it).

I was inspired by ChiDragons knowledgeable scholar

I think that if Lao Tzu really existed according to the stories told of him

Hanfeizi 280-233 BC quotes Shen Dao:

 

"It is on this basis that I know that the strategic advantage (shi) of position is enough to rely on, and that wisdom and worthiness are not worth admiring. Though one's bow is weak, if one shots from a great high, one's arrow will fly swifter than the wind. Though you are yourself unworthy, your orders are carried out due to the people's duty to assist you."

 

Lao Tzu is too quoting Shen Dao in the lines 1 and 3 of the Guodian chapter 19:

 

Terminate wisdom, abandon worthiness.

Terminate expertice, abandon advantageousness.

 

Shen Dao was engaged as a teacher during the reign of Xuanwang 342-324 BC

The Guodian Tao Te Ching was burried 312 BC

 

That'll say Lao Zhu was alive writing chapter 19 between 342 BC and 312 BC

A key factor I look for is whether or not what is being translated is logical in the English (American) language. If it's not logical and doesn't make sense then this will lead only to much confusion.

 

Inferior scholars have a great -er -est superior.

Greatest when giving personal praise to him.

Greater when being afraid of him.

Great when insulting him.

Trust lacks; resulting in a scheme of distrust?

The fulfilled success of a completed task,

the superlative meaning of the phrase,

is like "myself" being added whenever common people say "I".

 

Therefore is even Greatest a belittling of Dao

resulting in benevolence and righteousness.

The six relations are not harmonious

resulting in filial piety and compassion.

The state matters are muddled and confused

resulting in appropriate officials.

 

 

I've placed the Guodian chapter 18 downunder

Here is Henricks' translation of that:

 

1 With regard to the very best rulers, the people below simply know they are there.

 

I rather like Henricks' way of expressing it.

1 大 上 下 知 又 之

 

大 上 in the first line is an exposed object (大 上 exposed is repeated by 之)

大 上 下 知 又 之 is thus equivalent to 下 知 又 大 上

and the verb is 又 because the 之 is after the verb by regular rule early/middle warring states.

 

Hi Marblehead.

 

Henricks treats 知 "know" as the verb, but 又 "have" is the verb due to classical chinese grammar!

His english is surely better than mine, but his first four lines are translated "wrong"

 

Henricks follows the wellknown versions and graduates after positions.

Those one step down are praised.

Those another step down are feared.

Those yet another step down are insulted.

 

But the Guodian version graduates the character 大 (great, greater, greatest)

Greatest (fantastic) is praised.

Greater (size) is feared

Great (fat) is insulted

 

The pointe of the Guodian chapter 17 is that the term 大道 is to avoid,

because 大道 means both great Dao, greater Dao and greatest Dao

In order to understand the uniqueness of a person or situation,

one must have the same quality within oneself.

Or understand, that uniqueness makes an understanding based on a comparation impossible?

The Guodian Laozi chapter 17

 

大 上 下 知 又 之

亓 即 親 譽 之

亓 即 畏 之

亓 即 侮 之

信 不 足 安 又 不 信 猷 乎

亓 貴 言 也 成 事 遂 功

而 百 姓 曰 我 自 然 也

 

An inferior wisdom has a great superior.

Its next to gives personal praise to it.

Its next to is afraid of it.

Its next to insults it.

Trust lacks; how is distrusting it planned?

The achieved merit of a completed work is its precious meaning,

yet do common people say: I am myself so!

 

Attributed to Muhammad "I am the greatest" Ali

 

Reading tips:

 

The three "it" 之 means "superior".

The three "its next to" 亓 即 means "great" (大 is next to 上)

Line six relates to "personal praise" in line two.

The last line tells, that "great superior" isn't "zi ran",

because common people too are great!

Why not discuss it here, adept?

 

The first Xunzi text seems to be a commentary to Tao Te Ching chapter 42, because it's the only chapter that contains the characters 陰 yin and 陽 yang ... and too the character 一 one, and too the character 生 birth ... all central characters in both chapter 42 and the Xunzi text. If so, then Xunzi text is the first ever known commentary to Tao Te Ching, because he lived 312-230 BC.

 

The first lines of chapter 42 are these very difficult to understand/translate:

 

道生一 Tao gave birth to one

一生二 one gave birth to two

二生三 two gave birth to three

三生萬物 three gave birth to the tenthousand things

 

The Xunzi text in my own (poor) translation:

 

謂之命形於一 Called its name: Formed from One

I was myself surprized by reading, how influencal yin and yang was on taoism in late warring states time.

Yin and yang are not mentioned that often in t.ex. Tao Te Ching.

Xunzi's own point of view seems too influenced by yin and yang,

when reading another of his lexical texts in Da Dai Jili with the subject earth:

 

易本命凡 easy - root - name - summary

地 earth

東西為緯 east - west - is - woof (horisontal wowen)

南北為經 south - north - is - books (vertical reading direction)

山為積德 mountain - is - accumulate - virtue (te)

川為積刑 stream - is - accumulate - punishment

高者為生 high - that which - is - life

下者為死 below - that which - is - death

邱陵發牡 hill - grave - issue - male

谿谷為牝 gorge - valley - is - female

本命分於道

Root names distinguished from Tao:

 

謂之命形於一

Called its name: Formed from One.

 

謂之性化於陰陽象形而發

Called its characteristics: Changed from the images of yin and yang, formed and issued.

 

謂之生化窮數盡

Called its birth: Changed to the worn out of poor quality.

 

謂之死故命者性之終也

Called its death: The former name was that which naturally went to an end!

 

則必有終矣

The method surely has an end!!!

 

 

The text is included in Da Dai Jili, not included in the confucian canon,

and is according to scholarly research written by Xunzi (312-230 BC).

Well, OK, tao gives birth to one, as the classic put it.

There's an alternative way of reading:

 

To say born I I gives birth to II

 

The character "dao" have more meanings e.g. "to say".

The character "I" means "one" (the number).

The character "II" means two (the number) but does too symbolize "Earth" according to Shuo Gua.

The character "III" means three (the number) but does too symbolize "Heaven" according to Shuo Gua.

 

The opening lines of that chapter look like a typical Lao Dan fingerprint on the text. His main aversion was the "Son of Heaven" nonsense, and his secondary aversion was the double-phrase "Great Dao". And the Lao Dan sentences consist of 5, 6, 7, 8 or 9 characters, so that they correspond to a hexagram line; odd numbered correspond to "whole lines" and even numbered correspond to "broken lines".

OK let's just assume for the moment that you are right.

How does this theory of yours enhance either your practice or your spiritual attainment?

There's no right or wrong in this, because it depends of how one reads these two lines:

 

Heaven under joyful advances and no hate

because they don't quarrel yes therefore Heaven below

 

2 earth ........ 7 wind ........ 6 thunder

 

9 mountain ... 5 fire ......... 1 mountain

 

4 water ....... 3 heaven ..... 8 marsh

 

Does the trigram marsh symbolize the moon? The chinese character means "wedge". The trigram nickname is "joyful".

The wedging phases before and after a newmoon do look like a big but that isn't serious enough

I'm not just trying to be annoying, but it still really doesn't make sense to me.

I try put the subject of this tread into other words:

 

The Qin diviner Lao Dan (worked in the years 384-362 BC) added some ten verses to Dao De Jing. These verses are all anti-"mandate of heaven"! The philosophy of Dao De Jing is, that everything is natural, so to get rid of the unnatural "son of heaven" was the headline of Lao Dan's policy. Such a policy was ofcourse lese-majesty and the penality was execution. That's why his verses are "coded": The number of characters in each sentence correspond to a hexagram line; a hexagram line was expressed by numbers before 256 BC.

 

The Received Dao De Jing is an edition, so the number of characters in each sentence is not original. The Guodian version was buried 312 BC and the number of characters in each line seems to be original? The chinese (read communist) scholars have not been able to explain the seven ye3 (yes) characters of this chapter 66 ... they are neither diviners nor daoists, so they simply do not know how to read the chapter 66 text.

 

The Zhou point of view was, that the earth was flat and a new sun occurred every morning, like a new "son of heaven" was born, every time the former "son of heaven" died. So proving, that the earth is round and that it's the same sun occurring every morning, was the ultimate arguement against the "mandate of heaven" nonsense.

 

The moon is in front and the sun behind during a sun eclipse ... that's how I read the Guodian verse 66 ... but in order to read the text this way, then I have to "decode" the number of characters in the six lines into the hexagram 55 FENG, which is about a sun eclipse. And using the magic square result in 55 FENG ... so if I read the text "correct" ... then Lao Dan and his readers knew the magic square 384-362 BC

1 = Water

2 = Earth

3 = Mountain

4 = Lake

5 = 0

6 = Heaven

7 = Wind

8 = Thunder

9 = Fire

 

are your theories coming from traditional sources or are they your own investigations?

The earliest evidence of the Lo Shu diagram is about 900 AD according to modern chinese studies.

There are no earlier textual or archaeological founds confirming the antiquety of the Lo Shu diagram.

My source is thus these two quotes from Shuo Gua (the 8th Wing):

 

"To heaven they assigned the number three, to earth the number two, and form these they computed the numbers."

"therefore too backwards mowing numbers."

 

The above quotes result by logic in the following trigram-counting rules:

The bottom line counts either 4, if different to the top line, or 0 if equal to the top line

The middle line counts either 2, if different to the top line, or 0 if equal to the top line

The top line is either 2 (earth/even) or 3 (heaven/uneven)

 

::: 200=2 III 300=3 :I: 220=4 I:I 320=5 ::I 204=6 II: 304=7 :II 224=8 I:: 324=9

 

Counting reversed with an uneven number first change the counting rules into:

The bottom line counts either 4, if equal to the top line, or 0 if different to the top line

The middle line counts either 2, if equal to the top line, or 0 if different to the top line

The top line is either 2 (earth/even) or 1 (heaven/uneven)

 

::: 422=8 III 421=7 :I: 204=6 I:I 104=5 ::I 220=4 II: 120=3 :II 200=2 I:: 100=1

 

The first oracle was named Lian Shan (Mountains standing together) and that explains the two mountains:

 

2 earth ........ 7 wind ........ 6 thunder

 

9 mountain ... 5 fire ......... 1 mountain

 

4 water ....... 3 heaven ..... 8 marsh

 

Some commentaries to the trigram names in the middle column:

 

"wind" consists of a man standing on something; a stand, a table, or? I do not yet understand the meaning.

There are several characters with the man besides something or under something, all indicating an action.

 

"fire" consist of two characters, a net and a bird. I read it as meaning gravity. That which seperates (fly)

and that which connects (catch). Corresponding to the trigram nickname: The Clinging.

 

"heaven" consists of three characters, in the middle a sun, above a hanging plant and below a character,

that means "not breathing". I read all three as meaning "drought". The soil dryes and becomes solid; firm.

 

 

That'll say not like fifix's "this is the key to the gate of heaven"

To know the Tao is to know One, all other numbers are shenanigans;

I read somewhere, that Tao gave birth to One, so it's maybe a little more complicated?

I have a little correction to my magic square:

 

2 earth ........ 7 wind ........ 6 thunder

 

9 mountain .... 5 fire ......... 1 mountain

 

4 water ....... 3 heaven ..... 8 marsh

 

Some commentaires to the trigram names to the left and their chinese outlook:

 

"earth" consist of two components: a character meaning "clay/soil" and a character meaning "flowing"

"earth" has a substitute character JII meaning streams, that was carved in the stone Yi Jing.

That's why I read "earth" as meaning "mountain valley streams". Dry in summer and flowing in spring.

 

"water" consist of two components: a character meaning "clay/soil" and a character meaning "exhaling".

I read the meaning as both a pit and the content. Both the bottom and the water; all in all a river.

 

The left side of my magic square does thus correspond to the subject of Dao De Jing chapter 66

From the Guodian Laozi (312 BC):

 

zhi1 zai4 min2 qian2 ye3 yi3 shen1 hou4 zhi1

qi2 zai4 min2 shang4 ye3 yi3 yan2 xia4 zhi1

qi2 zai4 min2 shang4 ye3 min2 fu2 hou4 ye3

qi2 zai4 min2 qian2 ye3 min2 fu2 hai2 ye3

tian1 xia4 le4 jin4 er2 fu2 yan2

yi3 qi2 bu4 zheng1 ye3 gu4 tian1 xia4

 

go-to influence people in-front yes because body behind exits

that influence people on-top yes because words below exit

that influence people on-top yes people not behind yes

that influence people in-front yes people not abused yes

Heaven under joyful advances and no hate

because they don't quarrel yes therefore Heaven below

 

The number of characters in front of the blue characters are in every line: 5

The numbers of the hidden hexagram are the opposites of the blue characters in the magic square:

 

2 earth ........ 7 joyful ...... 6 thunder

 

9 mountain .... 5 fire ......... 1 mountain

 

4 water ....... 3 heaven ..... 8 wind

 

That'll say: 667787 corresponding to the (Guicang) hexagram 55 FENG line 2:

 

The curtain is of such fullness

That the polestars can be seen at noon.

Through going one meets with mistrust and hate.

If one rouses him through truth,

Good fortune comes.

 

The subject of the linetext is a sun eclipse; the polestars can be seen at noon!

The first blue characters "because body behind exits" describe too a sun eclipse!

 

Heaven under joyful advances and no hate

because they don't quarrel yes therefore Heaven below

what translations do you use

 

I start with: http://ctext.org/text.pl?node=25003&if=en

 

I copy and paste the chinese characters into: http://ctext.org/dictionary.pl?if=en

 

Or copy and paste single characters into: http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterASP/EtymologyHome.aspx

 

And then I translate the text

 

Dao, the birth of the seemingly worn-out, lengthens the solidification of the lowest.

 

But that doesn't make sense, in my mind.

 

Deep roots and firm principles are the way to ensure an enduring long life.

 

This, on the other hand, makes sense to me and I give it an approving nod.

OK ... I suppose that you too prefer the last lines of Dr. Wang's translation

 

Valid is: "the existing state of the existing states is their mother".

Valid is: "for a long time correct spoken deeply rooted".

Dao, the birth of the seemingly worn-out, lengthens the solidification of the lowest.

 

Prevailing without a limit, it can be used to manage a country.

Managing a country with this principle will endure long.

This is why we say:

Deep roots and firm principles are the way to ensure an enduring long life.

 

 

The first text use the decline of the worn-out Zhou state as a parable to describe Tao.

The last text looks to me like the smalltalk of cocktailparty about common principles.

I even serve the flowering plants I have in my gardens.

The last line looks to me like a flowering plant, maybe a yarrow or milfoil

 

1. gu4 .......... solidification, foundation, strength

2. di3 ........... lowest, bottom, root (the bottom of the root)

3. chang2 .... lengthen, to excel, long (the top of the root)

4. sheng1 .... birth, life, to breed (the seed)

5. jiu4 ......... worn-out, old, former (the stalk)

6. shi4 ........ observation, to see, to look at (the inflorescence)

*. zhi1 ........ go to, arrive at, its ....................... (photosynthesis/gravity)

*. dao4 ....... Dao , the way, to say .................... (the sun)

 

A reading from above to below (left to right) results in these two mistakes:

The photosynthesis of plants feeds the sun with energy.

The gravity makes the sun spin around the earth.

 

A reading from below to above (right to left) results in these two facts:

The sun feeds the plants by photosynthesis.

The graviation makes the earth spin around the sun.

 

*. dao4 ....... Dao , the way, to say .................... (the sun)

*. zhi1 ........ go to, arrive at, its ....................... (photosynthesis/gravity)

6. shi4 ........ observation, to see, to look at (the inflorescence)

5. jiu4 ......... worn-out, old, former (the stalk)

4. sheng1 .... birth, life, to breed (the seed)

3. chang2 .... lengthen, to excel, long (the top of the root)

2. di3 .......... lowest, bottom, root (the bottom of the root)

1. gu4 ......... solidification, foundation, strength

 

Dao, the birth of the seemingly worn-out, lengthens the solidification of the lowest.

Henricks' translation of the first three lines:

 

1. For ordering humanity and serving Heaven, nothing's so good as being sparing.

2. For only if you are sparing can you, therefore, early submit [to the Way].

3. Early submission—this is called to repeatedly accumulate Virtue.

Henricks is not translating but interpreting. He uses [to the Way] allthough "the way" isn't mentioned at all in the previous text. What's mentioned is "serving Heaven", so if he was translating, then he would have written [to Heaven]. Henricks treats the chapter 59 text as if it was written by a newcomer and not written by the Grand Historian and Astrologer Lao Dan, one of the most intelligent men in whole China around 375 BC.

 

And still ... "serving Heaven" ... is the definition of a taoist: one who serves Heaven?

 

And by the way ... after sparing, how do I submit ... does Tao have a mailbox or a bank account?

I don't understand what he was pointing to with the first three lines. To me they appear to be unrelated with the rest of the chapter.

The first six lines is one arguement in my translation. Lao Dan says, that the title "Son of Heaven" is a bluff, because the ruler is stingy but heaven isn't stingy, which he names narrowness in line 6.

 

My translation reads the first five lines reversed, while Dr. Wang read/translate all lines straight out. His problem is thus the term "serving Heaven", that read/translated reversed means "Heaven's office" corresponding to "Man's administration", that'll say together the Zhou dynasty ruler title "Son of Heaven". Dr. Wang's "serving Heaven" makes no sense, it's nonsense. Do you or any other taoist on this board "serve Heaven"? I think, that you prefer "serving Tao"! So Dr. Wang's translation is by logic a mistranslation.