lienshan
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Section G
... These words seem very strange; but if after ten thousand ages we once meet with a great sage
who knows how to explain them, it will be as if we met him (unexpectedly) some morning or evening.
inserted text
The Penumbra asked the Shadow, saying, 'Formerly you were walking on, and now you have stopped;
formerly you were sitting, and now you have risen up - how is it that you are so without stability?' ...
I've in section F told, that an inserted text doesn't belong here in section G
The reason why is, that it breaks the connection of the two texts shown in the quote above
'The great sage' one meets in the morning and the evening is 'the Shadow'
He is absent when night and too when noon, while the sun is straight vertical above.
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I've spent some time in section G exploring the 'Qu Quezi asked Chang Wuzi' story.
There are different scholarly opinions to where the last part of that story belongs?
My opinion is, that it belongs here being the last part of the 'Nie Que asked Wang Ni' story:
Since you made me enter into this discussion with you, if you have got the better of me and not I of you, are you indeed right, and I indeed wrong? If I have got the better of you and not you of me, am I indeed right and you indeed wrong? Is the one of us right and the other wrong? are we both right or both wrong? Since we cannot come to a mutual and common understanding, men will certainly continue in darkness on the subject. Whom shall I employ to adjudicate in the matter? If I employ one who agrees with you, how can he, agreeing with you, do so correctly? And the same may be said, if I employ one who agrees with me. It will be the same if I employ one who differs from us both or one who agrees with us both. In this way I and you and those others would all not be able to come to a mutual understanding; and shall we then wait for that (great sage)? (We need not do so.) To wait on others to learn how conflicting opinions are changed is simply like not so waiting at all. The harmonising of them is to be found in the invisible operation of Heaven, and by following this on into the unlimited past. It is by this method that we can complete our years (without our minds being disturbed). What is meant by harmonising (conflicting opinions) in the invisible operation of Heaven? There is the affirmation and the denial of it; and there is the assertion of an opinion and the rejection of it. If the affirmation be according to the reality of the fact, it is certainly different from the denial of it - there can be no dispute about that. If the assertion of an opinion be correct, it is certainly different from its rejection - neither can there be any dispute about that. Let us forget the lapse of time; let us forget the conflict of opinions. Let us make our appeal to the Infinite, and take up our position there.'
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麗之姬，艾封人之子也。晉國之始得之也，
Yes, 麗姬 is a girl....
And 麗之姬 is both a concubine and a widow!
Zhuangzi used the I ching hexagram formula 'hexagram X becomes hexagram Y' (X之Y)
姬 means 'concubine' and was too an Jin marquis/duke ancestral name.
So becoming a widow is why she weaps and cryes and becoming a concubine is why she
So the daughter of Confucius became widow and the criminal Chang Wu Zi her new husband?
A feature in classical chinese was 'exposure of the object' equal to underlining.
The 'exposured object' was placed in the front and a 之 marked where it belonged.
The beginning of story could, if so, be read like this:
麗之姬 艾封人之子也 晉國之始得之也
Border-warden Ai's son, the first of the Jin state, got Ji made Li.
That'll say the subject of story is someone not born marquis/duke of Jin
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I don't know who was copying whom. IMO They are in error.
子: son
女: daughter.
Please don't let these blind men lead you.
My approach to this little story is, that it seems mistranslated by the 'blind men'
So I will follow your advice and reconsider 之子
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麗之姬艾封人之子也
Li is the son of a feudal king.
One problem is the phrase 麗之姬 ???
麗姬 Li Ji occurs in the previous 'Nie Que asked Wang Ni story':
毛嬙 麗姬 人之所美 也 Mao Qiang and Li Ji were accounted by men to be most beautiful ...
And 麗姬 Li Ji occurs too in this not translated story but one line from it:
晉獻公伐虢 得麗姬 Jin offer Duke to stab Guo to get Ji Li
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Wellcome flowing hands
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The state of Jin, 晉國, ... It was ruled by a king with a surname 姬.
Jin was not ruled by marquises ... 晉國 was ruled by 始.
How did you translate 之子, the son of, to be a daughter...???
All translators ... Legge, Craham, Correa, Chen, Watson ... translates 'daughter of'.
I'd told you many times; the character 也 is an auxiliary word.
It was only used to enhance the weight of the phrase in classic text.
It does not have any significant meaning within context.
And my translation guru professor Edwin G. Pulleyblank has another opinion than you.
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There's something wrong with the translation of the first line of:
Li Ji was a daughter of the border Warden of Ai. When (the ruler of) the state of Jin first got possession of her,
she wept till the tears wetted all the front of her dress. But when she came to the place of the king, shared with him his luxurious couch, and ate his grain-and-grass-fed meat, then she regretted that she had wept.
麗之姬艾封人之子也 . 晉國之始得之也 ,
之 can like 也 mark a character as a name, so:
Li, the daughter of the border Warden Ji Ai, ... (the 也 nomilize a subordinate clause)
An alternative is a I Ching point of view because 麗 'the Clinging' is hexagram 30.
Hexagrams with changing lines were named: hexagram1 之 hexagram2
If e.g. hexagram Li has a changing 5th line, (麗之姬 or 麗之姬艾) then the linetext says:
Tears in floods, sighing and lamenting. Good fortune.
晉 is the name of hexagram 35 'Progress' or the name of the state Jin?
Seen from a grammatical point of view is 晉 the verb of the subject 麗
The two end characters 之也 was usual used to mark future tense of a preceeding verb (得),
so I do not feel comfortable with Legge's translation of this first part, while the last part seems OK?
Chang Wu Zi understood the bird language, he heard the birds said: "let's go eat the dead body under the tree by the river." Then Chang Wu Zi heard an old lady was crying while looking for her son. He told her that there is a body by the river. It was her son, but Chang Wu Zi was arrested for murdering her son. Later, he was exonerated because he proved himself to the officials that he heard that from the birds to locate the dead body. Confucius knew he was not guilty and a gentleman, thus Confucius was honored to have him as a son-in-law.
Li, the character of hexagram 30, shows a bird matching your 'bird language story'.But why 'the state Jin' and not another state?
Jin was ruled by marquises but Zhuangzi titles the man as 'King'?
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Thank you for reminding me(a stupid native) how to read pre-Qin text. ....
Your knowledge of modern chinese is both an advantage and a disadvantage. But honestly:
This text is early Han language written like the Mawangdui versions of Tao Teh Ching.
But back to business:
Li Ji was a daughter of the border Warden of Ai. When (the ruler of) the state of Jin first got possession of her, she wept till the tears wetted all the front of her dress. But when she came to the place of the king, shared with him his luxurious couch, and ate his grain-and-grass-fed meat, then she regretted that she had wept.
This little story inside the story relates to this confucian Analects text
Confucius choose the criminal Gong Ye Chang as husband to his daughter!
Confucius choose to believe that he was not guilty ...
I cannot at first sight see, what this little story has to do within the context?
So I view it as another hint to the identity of Zhuangzi's fictional Chang Wu Zi,
but you are maybe able to entlighten me?
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3. 丘 is Confucius original name. The character 也 was used to emphasize that we are talking about him particularly.
is the 1200 BC oracle character meaning 'a hill or mound, big, elder, empty'It developed into the modern chinese character 丘 and was too the name of Confucius.
Names were in classical chinese language marked with an added 也 character in texts.
Your 'emphasize' is the modern nowadays way of reading the 也 in chinese language.
Please remember ... Zhuangzi is not a daily newspaper but an ancient pre-Qin text
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2. Chang Wu Zi 長梧子 was a disciple of Confucius. I am not sure about the son-in-law part...!!!
1. I am not sure about that: using his personal name 丘也 Qiu which marks a family relationship.
Ju Que Zi asked using the respectful term 夫子 to name Confucius.
Chang Wu Zi answered using the personal name 丘也 to name Confucius.
Zhuangzi's agenda writing so is to guide the reader to identify the persons speaking,
which helps the reader to understand the hidden pointe connected with the two persons.
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瞿鵲子問乎長梧子曰：「吾聞諸夫子，聖人不從事於務，不就利，不違害，不喜求，不緣道；無謂有謂，有謂無謂，而遊乎塵垢之外。夫子以為孟浪之言，而我以為妙道之行也。吾子以為奚若？」
The reason that a sage wasn't serious in conducting his affairs is because he has gained his sagacious status.
Thus everything he does, without additional effort, was already in the sagacious level.
Ju Que Zi asked Chang Wu Zi saying:
I've from our master heard this of a sage not following duty by doing his utmost:
Not coveting profit is to not being apart from jealous like not enjoying importunity is to not following Tao.
Not having an opinion is to having an opinion like having an opinion is to not having an opinion.
But when one travels, isn't the dust and the dirt on the outside?
Our master considered it the words of eminent wastefulness,
that which you and I consider the walk of subtle Tao,
and Zi Wo considered it submissiveness.
Chang Wu Zi said:
This, what makes Huang Di's understanding shine,
is yours and Qui's whichone foot creates knowledge?
瞿鵲子問乎長梧子曰
吾聞諸夫子聖人不從事於務
不就利 , 不違害 , 不喜求 , 不緣道
無謂 , 有謂 , 有謂 , 無謂
而遊乎塵垢之外
夫子以為孟浪之言
而我以為妙道之行也
吾子以為奚若
長梧子曰
是黃帝之所聽熒也
而丘也何足以知之
in red is Qu Que Zi asking
in blue is a Confucius quote
in green is Chang Wu Zi answering
Chang Wu Zi mentions Confucius using his personal name 丘也 Qiu which marks a family relationship.
Chang Wu Zi 長梧子 is equal to Gongye Chang 公冶長, styled Zi-chang (al. Zi-zhi) 子長 (al. 子芝).
He was son-in-law to Confucius.
The two lines quoting Confucius are special sentence constructions;
Laozi's favourite argumentation formula of four components:
A relates to B like C relates to D (the Tao Teh Ching chapter 1 opening lines are e.g. like this).
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I have a problem with the typical translation of the opening
You are right; all translations miss the pointe because they overlook a person: 吾子
吾子 is the confucian disciple 子我 Zi Wo
Both 吾 and 我 means 'I, we' but 吾 is always in front of the word it belongs to.
He had 'a sharp mouth', according to Sima Qian. Once, when he was at the court of Chu on some commission, the king Chao offered him an easy carriage adorned with ivory for his master. Zi Wo replied, 'My master is a man who would rejoice in a government where right principles were carried out, and can find his joy in himself when that is not the case. Now right principles and virtue are as it were in a state of slumber. His wish is to rouse and put them in motion. Could he find a prince really anxious to rule according to them, he would walk on foot to his court and be glad to do so. Why need he receive such a valuable gift, as this from so great a distance?' Confucius commended this reply; but where he is mentioned in the Analects, Zi Wo does not appear to great advantage.
The related sentence in Zhuangzi's story:
夫子以為孟浪之言
而我以為妙道之行也
吾子以為奚若
What confuses the translators is the grammatical 也 character, that makes
the middle line a subordinate clause between the first and last part of the sentence:
Our master considered it the word of eminent wastefulness,
that which you and I consider the walk of subtle Tao,
and Zi Wo considered it submissiveness.
The pointe is, how can Confucius know the walk of subtle Tao when driving in a carriage,
but this next line does too contain a 也 character misunderstood by the translators.
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Dear ChiDragon, Why being so surprised??
Don't you know some very materialistic people still don't believe they have a spirit ? Unbelievable? ..uh?
The belief in spirits was the subject of Mozi's (470-391 BC) book 8
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That's a bowl not a fish, unless you are making some point about everything originating from one spirit,
yet that concept doesn't tell you much about the way the Tao expresses itself.
It's the first ever expression of a spirit I've seen ... one of the beautiful potteries of the Yangshao culture.
It's said: The valleyspirit never dies! Maybe I should view this a bowlspirit?
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But I have a Self.
We do all have a Self. The chinese point at their nose saying 'zi' (known from the term ziran).
But Zhuangzi used another character, the personal pronoun, as a noun to express the 'self'.
That's why I read his 'self' as a non-materialistic expression.
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Thinking about this subject a bit more I'm not sure spirit is just pure awareness as it seems to have a character or natural expression depending on what form it manifests from the Tao, for example the spirits of different animals and plants have different characteristics, the monkey for example has a much more playful spirit than a horse, the Cat has a prouder more refined spirit than a dog, there are trees with strong noble spirits like the old tall trees in the forest and then there are trees with more welcoming spirits like fruit trees.
Which characteristics does this fish spirit have?
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至人無己 a materialist has no self
神人無功 an idealist has no achievement
聖人無名 a sage has no title
I somehow agreed with Lienshan about the materialst/idealist (If we need to use those words
).The first of Zhuangzi's three statements is grammatically illegal and thus very hard to translate.
己 is the personal pronoun 'oneself, yourself, himself' being a subjective noun when after 無
至 is the verb 'to arrive' or the noun 'arrival' but has here the position of an adjective.
My way to understand was to change the two first negative statements into one of two positive statements:
至人有功 a materialist has an achievement
至人有名 a materialist has a title
神人有己 an idealist has a self
神人有名 an idealist has a title
While the third negative cannot in the same way be changed into one of the two positive statements:
聖人有己 a sage has a self
聖人有功 a sage has an achievement
The reason why is, that the sage has no philosophy!
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The structure of Zhuangzi chapter 2
The opening paragraph; Zi Qui and Zi You discuss pipes; a story.
Tao and philosophy.
Yao and Shun; a story.
Nie Que and Wang Ni; a story.
Qu Que Zi and Chang Wu Zi; a story.
The penumbra and the shadow; a story.
Zhuangzi and the butterfly; a story.
The looong paragraph 'Tao and philosophy' contains a lot of fill information.
I will concentrate my reading on the passages containing the character 道 Tao or Dao
and offer my own translation of these specific passages on monday after the weekend.
The six stories look interesting; the Qu Que Zi and Chang Wu Zi story does too contain 道
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至人無己 a materialist has no self
神人無功 an idealist has no achievement
聖人無名 a sage has no title
The structure of Zhuangzi chapter 1 based on the above translation:
The opening paragraph: the Kun changes to Peng story.
The Riddles of Qi: the materialistic explanation of the Kun and Peng paragraph.
The idealistic cicada and dove have a laugh.
The Questions of Tang to Ji: the idealistic explanation of the Kun and Peng paragraph.
The materialistic quail has a laugh.
Presentation of the materialist Song Rongzi.
Presentation of the idealist Liezi.
The Yao and Xu You paragraph; about a materialistic hero.
The Jian Wu and Lian Shu paragraph; about an idealistic hero.
The ceremonial hats salesman travels south; about a materialistic failure.
The emperor Yao travels north; about an idealistic failure.
The Zhuangzi and Huizi gourd paragraph; about a materialistic success.
The Zhuangzi and Huizi tree paragraph; about an idealistic success.
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I guess Y'all can call me a Song Rongziist. I love labels!!!
Wrong guess ... I prefer to label you Scolding Quail
Yin Wen (the scolding quail) was disciple of Song Rongzi, both scholars at the Jixia Academy in Qi.
An example of their materialistic philosophy from 'The Riddles of Qi':
The accumulation of water; if it be not great, it will not have strength to support a large boat.
Upset a cup of water in a cavity, and a straw will float on it as if it were a boat.
Place a cup in it, and it will stick fast; the water is shallow and the boat is large.
The accumulation of wind; if it be not great, it will not have strength to support great wings.
Therefore the height of 90,000 li, and there was such a mass of wind beneath it;
thenceforth the accumulation of wind was sufficient.
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At first, I did not like the idea of 'grounded' since I see it more like 'arriving';
the strictest understanding of the character though would be to arrive or be in the ground.
I try another shot:
至人無己 a materialist has no self
神人無功 an idealist has no achievement
聖人無名 a sage has no title
Despite the large number of philosophical schools and subtle nuances between many,
all philosophies are said to fall into one of two primary categories,
which are defined in contrast to each other: Materialism and Idealism.
A typical materialist is Song Rongzi and a typical idealist is Liezi.
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Hill of Gu Ye is presented as some kind of realisations;
I think one could also see something from dissecting the Chinese Characters.
藐姑射之山 , 汾水之陽
藐 miao : insignificant (Ku-she is not high but stands high above the surrounding area)
姑 gu : mother in law
射 she : archery (listed by Confucius as one of six arts required of a scholar)
之 zhi : its
山 shan : mountain
汾 fen : Fen (a tributary of the Yellow River)
水 shui : water
之 zhi : its
陽 Yang : yang (downstream southwards, sunny side of a mountain, opposite of yin)
Mount Ku-she is situated north of river Fen at the mongolian border.
Chuang Tzu Chapter 2, Section G
in Zhuangzi
Posted · Edited by lienshan
The structure of chapter 2
dialoque - Zi Qui and Zi You
monoloques
dialogue - Yao and Shun
dialogue - Nie Que and Wang Ni
dialogue - Qu Que Zi - Chang Wu Zi + 'inserted text'
dialogue - Penumbra and Shadow
monologue
The 'inserted text' was inserted here by the editor Gao Xiang 300 CE
A. C. Graham placed the 'inserted text' after the monologues, but that's wrong,
because the 'inserted text' is in dialogue mode but without mentioning names.
I think the 'inserted text' fits as an end of the Nie Que and Wang Ni dialogue.
Chang Wu Zi would never say: "Then suppose I and you discuss ..."
because he is equaling Confucius and Qu Que Zi in a 'him against them' mode.
But it fits perfectly with Wang Ni's 'How should I know' mode!